Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x04 - "The Butcher's Knife Cares Not for the Lamb's Cry"

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by Commander Richard, Oct 8, 2017.

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Rate the episode...

  1. 10 - Pure Win!

    9.1%
  2. 9

    22.4%
  3. 8

    22.4%
  4. 7

    20.5%
  5. 6

    9.7%
  6. 5

    5.1%
  7. 4

    3.9%
  8. 3

    3.3%
  9. 2

    2.1%
  10. 1 - Boy did that suck!

    1.5%
  1. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Vice Admiral Moderator

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    You too wicked! lol
     
  2. Search4

    Search4 Captain Captain

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    Well blow me down!
     
  3. Mirror_Barclay

    Mirror_Barclay Commander Red Shirt

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    I think nobody realized the ship was still there until some of the Klingons got curious where the crew and ship that started the war got to since nobody had seen (or not seen) them helping.

    They clearly had comms since they were able to speak with the one Klingon commander. But why did they trust him enough to admit they were sitting ducks? And if they were so trusting of other Klingons, why not ask for help five months ago (after they'd spent a month trying and failing to finish repairs)?
     
  4. Grendelsbayne

    Grendelsbayne Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Those are very clearly not the same corrosion marks. The marks on the top telescope run vertically down the outside of the cilinder. Those on the bottom run horizontally back towards the eyepiece. The only possible way they could be the same is if the section with the eyepiece rotates and the corrosion marks on the other side of the cilinder do match.
     
  5. Mad Jack Wolfe

    Mad Jack Wolfe Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Hey, somebody has to scrub the plasma manifolds.
     
  6. Ometiklan

    Ometiklan Captain Captain

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    Actually if you rewatch the episode, the discussion comes at teh begining of the scene (not at the "pushing" part if that was what you trying to say). Saru says the evidence is inconclusive, but that his impression is that it was deliberate. Burnham chides him for it. He says he was just relaying his "feeling" and she responds that he should look again so he can evaluate using facts not feelings. When Burnham reports to the captain, she says that the science officer thinks it is deliberate, but is not sure. Because they are unsure they allow Burnham to go to the "unknown object" unescorted, just for a flyby. If it had been concluded that the damage was deliberate, they never would have risked a fly by without more info.

    I think we will definitely see more of the telescope, but the "how, why, and where" of it getting to the Discovery is unlikely to be covered. I do think Saru or Burnham are the most likely candidates for taking the telescope with them, but I doubt Saru kept it and gave it to Tilly. I clearly went through some official process with Starfleet and Georgiou's will; no chance Saru held onto it instead.

    I don't think we know for sure that the cloak tech was traded for the D7 tech. That is fan supposition based on shared model use in TOS, which was "explained" by Spock's line of "Romulans now reported using Klingon designs" in "The Enterprise Incident" and mentioned in the non-canon TNG tech manual. Apparently (though I don't remember this and it is also non-canon), Spock also speculates on the Klingons having a cloak in The Animated Series episode "The Time Trap". Also, though Voq says T'Kuvma "invented" this version of a cloak, he could have actually gotten it from somewhere, like the Romulans.

    I think it is very much the same telescope. First, if the idea that Georgiou had kept the "heirloom" telescope safe in storage back on earth and a replica one on the Shenzhou is considered, why would she have the replica made with "incorrect" corrosion marks. Second, why would she just have it sent to Burnham wherever Burnham happens to be stationed in the future if she was so worried about the real telescope? She would have just sent a message that the real telescope was waiting safely back home for Burnham to pick up. Third, it cheapens the meaning of the exploration metaphor - the whole purpose of the telescope - to not take the real one with you exploring. Fourth, if you look closely at the photo of the telescope in the case, it has two adjustable knobs facing the viewer. If we name the space between the knobs the "bottom" of the telescope, and then look at the photos of Burnham and Saru using the telescope, we can see that the "bottom" of the telescope is indeed facing directly downward and is not visible to the viewer in those shots. Thus the corrosion marks are not going to appear to line up, because we are seeing two separate parts of the telescope. It looks like the "arm" with the mini-scope either can rotate a little, or the perspective is a little off and it is actually angling down into the case, away from the viewer in the case shot. For me, it definitely is the same telescope.
     
  7. Locutus of Bored

    Locutus of Bored This is the Way Moderator

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    Look at it from a writer's perspective. Why go through the paces of setting up this telescope and giving it such a prominent role as a) a cherished centuries old family heirloom of Captain Georgiou, b) a prominent feature of her ready room, c) something she liked to share with Burnham while she was still alive that they both bonded over, and d) something that played a significant tactical role in their engagement with the Klingons, showing that the Captain acknowledges that Burnham made the right call after the fact. Why do all that if you're just going to replace it with some random telescope Georgiou happened to have in storage back on Earth that has zero emotional meaning to Burnham?

    A random telescope which coincidentally happens to also be the same model, which is equally covered in corrosion, and which was not in the still pressurized ready room when Voq was stranded aboard the ship later on? Isn't the simplest scenario that prior to going on their suicide mission to the Klingon Sarcophagus Ship, Georgiou quickly updated her last will and testament to bequeath the telescope to Burnham as a way of saying "I'm sorry about how things ended with us, you were right about the Klingons, and never forget to have faith in yourself and always keep looking to the stars" or some other sentimental claptrap? If it's just a telescope come lately it loses all of that symbolism.

    From a production standpoint, if it was meant to be a different telescope, you'd make damn sure you got a very different looking telescope, not the same model as the one stated as being a centuries old family heirloom, and not one that's also all corroded. You'd differentiate it more to avoid confusion.
     
  8. Tesophius

    Tesophius Captain Captain

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    The telescope is clearly meant to be the same one. The writers were thinking of the symbolism and the emotional impact while forgot to consider the logistics. It's just poor writing, unfortunately.
     
  9. Grendelsbayne

    Grendelsbayne Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I have no problem with the idea that it may be the same telescope and was evacuated from the ship along with the crew. But I find your objections to there being different telescopes unconvincing. The replica need not even necessarily be intended as an exact replica of her family heirloom, it could just be a sturdy, usable telescope of the model that she is most familiar with using. Hell, we don't even have to assume that she left the telescope on earth to protect it in the first place. Also, to leave the telescope to Burnham means that it is now Burnham's property to do with as she pleases - any instinct Georgiou might have to be protective of it becomes irrelevant, and I honestly doubt she arranged the telescope's transport personally, anyway. Most likely that's simply standard procedure whenever anyone inherits something portable and isn't likely to be able to come pick it up anytime soon. As for the metaphor, it's in the idea of a telescope and need not require the exact same telescope that was in Georgiou's ready room.

    As for the marks, it seems to me far more than a case of 'not lining up' quite right. They look completely different and unlikely to be very close together. I'm fine if it turns out the eyepiece is widely rotatable (but a small amount of rotation would not be enough to fix the difference, and I'm not even certain there is any rotation at all), and I'm fine if it turns out to be a simple production error - but as far as proving that both telescopes are the same, those pictures by themselves are largely inconclusive.

    No matter what the deal is with the telescope, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the logistics of the situation. The ship was evacuated. The telescope is small. It's easy to take with them.
     
  10. Ometiklan

    Ometiklan Captain Captain

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    I think the will was not updated any time recently. Georgiou has the longer hair style seen in the 7-years-ago flashback, and all her dialog indicates an earlier Georgiou is recording this. As another poster said, though it is not intended to be so by Georgiou the recording is an unpleasant reminder of Burnham's failure. This is a recording of Georgiou when all was right with the world, when their relationship was great, and when there were only great things in Burnham's future. Now the telescope will be a reminder of her to stick to her principles and those of the Federation and try to recapture the trust and justification her captain had in her.

    - I don't have strong feelings about this, but I just don't see any reason - storywise, productionwise, logicwise - for there to be two telescopes. The only reason it is has become an issue at all is because the corrosion marks don't match up. My point isn't that the marks "don't line up quite right", I actually agree that the corrosion marks do not match at all - instead my point is the side we see in the "in use" shots (approximately 1/3 - 1/4 of the telescopes surface due to lighting, reflections, etc.) is almost totally different from the side we see in the case (the better lighting here lets us get a clear look at about 1/3 - 1/2 of the telescope). Since the sides shown in the pictures are totally different, I 100% agree with you that "those pictures by themselves are largely inconclusive". Thus I return to my first sentence of this paragraph in that there is no reason to have two different telescopes. All other things being equal (since the photo evidence is inconclusive, much like the info on the damaged communications relay) - logic suggests that there is only one telescope.

    If one disagrees that the telescope in the case is rotated as far as I think it is, I could see one disagreeing with my conclusion about this.
     
  11. BillJ

    BillJ Canon Warrior Premium Member

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    I'm sorry, I don't buy that the telescope would be on anyone's mind when they were running for their lives to escape pods.

    It simply wasn't something that was well thought out.
     
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  12. KirkusOveractus

    KirkusOveractus Commodore Commodore

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    I love the sentimentality of the scene, but when it comes down to scrutiny, it doesn't hold up as to how the telescope got off the ship. It's simply not an essential item anyone would take.

    Granted, this is the same kind of scrutiny that asks why they didn't set the ship to self-destruct that close to the border of an enemy in wartime...
     
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  13. Borgminister

    Borgminister Admiral Moderator

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    Yeah--always connect all the dots, as I've heard so frequently... :lol:
     
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  14. BillJ

    BillJ Canon Warrior Premium Member

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    Or that Starfleet, with their impeccable technical hygiene didn't come back to the battlefield and make sure there was nothing left to be looted. By the Klingons or scavengers.
     
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  15. Ometiklan

    Ometiklan Captain Captain

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    They weren't running for their lives. There was no threat at that time. The active Klingon ships had all left the system, and the Shenzhou crippled the only remaining Klingon ship. The Shenzhou lacked engines and weapons systems, but other systems (transporters, lifesupport, main power) were all functioning. The crew had time to collect valuable technology and personal effects before leaving the ship. I think you are just comparing the scene to other "evacuation" scenes in Trek, where generally the ship is about to have an antimatter containment failure, is being overrun by the Borg, or is still in an active combat zone (The Defiant in "The Changing Face of Evil") and the crew must evacuate in a very short time. That is not the case here.
     
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  16. KirkusOveractus

    KirkusOveractus Commodore Commodore

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    Then there would have been time to set the ship to self-destruct, so that Klingons, scavengers (like Orion pirates) or anyone else couldn't pick up a critical piece of the ship's systems?

    I love Star Trek and want this show to do better than it has been doing so far, but the writing (especially in those first two episodes) left questions big enough to ram the 2009 Enterprise through.
     
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  17. Noname Given

    Noname Given Admiral Admiral

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    You realize that at this point and time - principal photography for all 15 episodes of the season has been completed (IE the actors have wrapped production) right?
     
  18. Noname Given

    Noname Given Admiral Admiral

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    No one was running for their lives. They made a point of showing the evacuation after T'Kuvma's ship was disabled. It didn't appear there was any real urgency to it - they just abandoned a disabled ship (probably when they were sure all active Klingon ships had left.)
     
  19. Burning Hearts of Qo'nOs

    Burning Hearts of Qo'nOs Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Voted 9 right after I watched it based on entertainment value. Upon second viewing the kinks in the writing started showing themselves a little more clearly. I think by next week I might be seeing it with the critical eye on the first viewing now that the show is in full swing.

    Even though the series is not what I was expecting I'm largely enjoying it. Loving the polarized discussion on it as well. It's funny, Discovery is the series to show a hopeless battle at a mining colony where TNG would have been about the relief effort and aftermath.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
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  20. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

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    So, did anyone notice if the episode's title was spoken in dialog this time around?

    Kor