Spoilers STAR TREK BEYOND - Grading & Discussion

[Malaika]

@Yanks honestly this whole argument about s/u is pretentious. You should own the fact you are biased too because you hate them and move on instead of insisting that the rest of us are the ones who want to see things that don't exist. This is the only reason I even replied: your preaching about your biased out of context interpretation being a fact when it isn't.

There is a reason why the majority of people, including those who could care less about the romance, seem to understand they are together (I have friends who are bad with subtext and it was clear even to them) or at the very least are getting back together. There is no logical reason in narrative why the creative team would have that scene in the end. You are pretty much nitpicking here and holding onto a weak idea. Not to mention that in order to support your idea you have to essentially change the context of their break up, as you seem to have done when you implied the reason was not Spock leaving the ship, in spite of that being the only reason provided in canon by the character himself (you want to change it because the reason of the break up is deleted in the end by his decision to stay).
How do you see them back together, then ? Serioustly. This is Spock. Their whole body language at the party is that of a couple, frankly, but if not even SPOCK saying that he went there in spite of a work to do JUST to be with her is not enough for you (as well as her calling him old romantic, her playing with the necklace, her bringing him the drink and them staring at each other while their friends look at the ship) then I have to guess someone either needs the subtitles or the 'problem' is only the fact the they don't kiss or make cheesy declarations of love. And again, you have far less evidence of them not being together than the contrary because even when they are taking a break, the narrative still treats them as a couple and the characters themselves see them as one, including the one person who knows about their relationship issues. Heck, from what Spock said you could infer it wasn't over for him (his quote about how he had intended to talk with her more but didn't get the chance). Ditto for Uhura who kept wearing her 'ex's necklace hidden below her uniform in spite of her trying to give it back (and notice Spock's faith she'd still wear it. She could have put it away in her quarters on the ship. What's the purpose of still wearing his gift under the uniform and then openly visible in the end?)

I don't have the presumption to be a writer here but IMO the narrative was quite simple to get in all its elements. This is not Stanley Kubrick material.

 

[RAMA]

Critic reviews are winding down. It went up to 84% fresh. Beyond blows Suicide Squad and Bourne out of the water.

 

[eyeresist]

the destruction of the Enterprise (again) did nothing for me, presumably because I'm not emotionally invested in this one. It didn't seem the chracters themselves cared much for it anyway.

I think the problem is the characters not selling it, not whether you like the actual ship.
I never much liked the D, but, when it went down, the character reactions made it a big deal. (Also more emotional music.)

 

[Malaika]

I guess it's a bit typical for sequels to go 'worse' than the first successful movie but it makes me a bit sad

 

[Makarov]

Well, that's a shame. You missed the point of the movie.

So where is it? I don't think there's much there to miss, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Pretty sure I mentioned this, but I'll say it again-nuKirk isn't bored. He is depressed and feeling frustrated and directionless. It connects to the larger theme of the movie because that is what Edison experiences when he goes from being MACO to a starship captain. We see Kirk wrestling with an existential crisis and deciding to be promoted rather than remain on a starship.

Appreciate the explanation and respect that interpretation. Myself and just my opinion I have to disagree though because Edison wasn't bored or depressed, he was a soldier who was angry about being left behind. He didn't care for starfleets values. None of that applies to Kirk and his depression or boredom. If he were like Edison he'd be itching to get out into space and into combat situations. Instead he just wants to leave. All that aside even if we want to connect it to Edison his backstory isn't in the movie until very late so Edison's motivations are guesses at best.

What changes? The fact that his crew and him were able to achieve the impossible.

I mean that applies to any adventure they could be having, including the adventures he had during TOS. Adventures which he apparently grew depressed/bored from because they were too "episodic."

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I like the strong female protagonist in Beyond. With that said, we just had the same character in SW7. It would be neat to see Uhura stepped up to be a person rather than "Spock's girlfriend so that we can have Spock and Uhura in a relationship b/c it's edgy or kewl."

We really didn't. Just because they're both strong female characters, it does not make them the 'same' character.

Did I miss where that happened though? What is it about these particular events that gets him reinvested? There was no awe inspiring contact with a new life form or something that would make someone want to stay out in space. It was a rescue job that a militaristic Starfleet could have pulled off without the enterprise whatsoever - send some warships in and clean up the mess with Krall. The movie opens with him interacting with different species, which he's bored with, yet it's this standard action story which gets him going again.

There were several things that changed for him, imo. First off, getting his ship destroyed out from under him was almost certainly a shock to the system. Secondly, being forced to win the day with nothing but the help of his crew and some really old junk definitely reminded him of how important the crew is to him and how important he is to them. Third, seeing Scotty succeed where he failed at getting Jaylah to join them reminded him of the importance of humanity/sensitivity, which was something he had been missing a bit due to his depression. And finally, I think seeing one of the Federation's legendary heroes so bent on tearing down everything Kirk believed in helped rekindle his own desire to protect the Federation ideals again.

You do know the exact same thing can be said and counter this argument?

We haven't seen them back together, so they aren't.

We never saw them use the bathroom, so clearly the entire crew was constipated for the whole length of the movie.

You know, I think I'm getting the hang of this.

 

[fireproof78]

Appreciate the explanation and respect that interpretation. Myself and just my opinion I have to disagree though because Edison wasn't bored or depressed, he was a soldier who was angry about being left behind. He didn't care for starfleets values. None of that applies to Kirk and his depression or boredom. If he were like Edison he'd be itching to get out into space and into combat situations. Instead he just wants to leave. All that aside even if we want to connect it to Edison his backstory isn't in the movie until very late so Edison's motivations are guesses at best.

It's not matter of connection, nor is it a one-to-one relationship. It's a matter of thematic material within the film. For me, it was a matter of Edison rejecting the Federation's exploration mission and wanting to dismantle it because he was out there so long. I saw Kirk identifying with that and his own feelings of abandonment.

I mean that applies to any adventure they could be having, including the adventures he had during TOS. Adventures which he apparently grew depressed/bored from because they were too "episodic."

Respectfully, depression and boredom should not be confused together. When I'm depressed I want to disconnect from everything and have a general feeling of lack of enjoyment in daily activities.

As for Kirk, I think that @grendelsbayne handles it well.

There were several things that changed for him, imo. First off, getting his ship destroyed out from under him was almost certainly a shock to the system. Secondly, being forced to win the day with nothing but the help of his crew and some really old junk definitely reminded him of how important the crew is to him and how important he is to them. Third, seeing Scotty succeed where he failed at getting Jaylah to join them reminded him of the importance of humanity/sensitivity, which was something he had been missing a bit due to his depression. And finally, I think seeing one of the Federation's legendary heroes so bent on tearing down everything Kirk believed in helped rekindle his own desire to protect the Federation ideals again.

I agree with this. I think Kirk isn't looking for adventure as he is purpose. As Bones described it, Kirk is discovering what it means to be himself. Almost like a mid-life crisis, in a way.

We never saw them use the bathroom, so clearly the entire crew was constipated for the whole length of the movie.

You know, I think I'm getting the hang of this.

Welcome to the internet

 

[Malaika]

I saw potential in Kirk's arc about being tired of the episodic nature of their job. It makes sense to me and made them more human. Even Spock himself started to question if his skills could be more useful for the vulcans. We always take for granted that working on a spaceship is cool and all and it must be, but it's still a job that after a while can become, no pun intended, alienating because it gets repetitive like any job. We see their big 'adventure' in each movie but we're to assume that in 'between' those moments there are many, many days that are pure routine and they feel the same. It also made sense to me that he questions, at one point, if he's just trying to emulate his father because he indeed went to starfleet because of a bet.
I think many can relate to that feeling. The movie was a test for them that made them remember why they joined starfleet and that they love their job, that they have a valid purpose. Not saying it was perfectly developed, but the idea wasn't bad.

I think if they wanted they could have explained Carol's absence using the theme of the movie: maybe she got tired of working on the ship too but unlike the others, she realized that she maybe joined it all mostly as a result of the conflict with her father but her passions were elsewhere and thus decided to leave the ship and purse a different career.. maybe one more similar to her counterpart in the other reality.

We never saw them use the bathroom, so clearly the entire crew was constipated for the whole length of the movie.

this could become a meme

well, I just realized using their logic S/U were never a couple in the first place because we never saw them getting together either! They never said they were a couple. We also didn't see Kirk and Bones becoming friends, now that I'm thinking about it... did they even call each other friends?
you know, I'm starting to think maybe we made too many assumptions...

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I was thinking about this some more and it occurred to me that there may be an argument to be made that actually Jaylah's entire arc was a significant event for Kirk, helping him remember why he loves Starfleet.

If you look at her storyline throughout the movie, she's basically a walking metaphor for all the best things that serving in Starfleet means. She's first contact with a new species - but a good first contact, one that doesn't end with you being chased by spearmen. She's rescuing innocent people from an unjust situation. She's bridging the gap between species, building trust between humans and non-humans, and spreading Federation ideals. Hell, at the end of the day, they even helped her overcome her own fears and become a better person. And the whole thing ended with her running off to immediately join Starfleet because she was so pleased with her experiences with him and his crew. How could he watch all that unfold and not regain a little of his own love for Starfleet?

 

[Yanks]

@Yanks honestly this whole argument about s/u is pretentious. You should own the fact you are biased too because you hate them and move on instead of insisting that the rest of us are the ones who want to see things that don't exist. This is the only reason I even replied: your preaching about your biased out of context interpretation being a fact when it isn't.

I'm not biased. You guys wouldn't even been having a conniption had I not said I didn't like the relationship. We don't know they are back together - fact. Simple as that. It has nothing to do with my distain for the relationship. We see Uhura smile and rub the amulet. That's all. We most likely will (sadly) see them rejoined in the next movie. you should rejoice in that assumption.

We never saw them use the bathroom, so clearly the entire crew was constipated for the whole length of the movie.

You know, I think I'm getting the hang of this.

Nice. Funny stuff right there.

 

[BillJ]

We never saw them use the bathroom, so clearly the entire crew was constipated for the whole length of the movie.

"Chug a beer every time someone goes to the bathroom in a Star Trek episode or movie."

Drinking game for an AA meeting...

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Last night after work, I went to see Star Trek Beyond.

It was a really strange experience. The theater wasn't exactly the best (it smelled moldy and musty, and the air conditioning was off-kilter to the point where it wasn't comfortable), and as I watched the movie I didn't get as immersed in it as I wanted to be. I think the gushing praise I've seen of it on social media (Facebook, Twitter) raised my expectations a bit too high, so the film didn't -quite- get there for me.

Don't misunderstand, I enjoyed the film and think it's in the upper echelon of Star Trek films. It was thoughtful, it had its action setpieces, I liked the characters and their interactions, it was funny in genuine ways in ways that Star Trek films haven't been, well, ever. Starbase Yorktown is a fascinating environment; a Death Star built for good is how I described it on a Facebook post, and it's a place I wouldn't mind a future Star Trek production revisiting. It was trying to be a Star Trek story in an unambitious way -- it didn't feel the need to be an epic hero's journey -- and I was surprised at how completely unlike the previous twelve films it felt like. The poster, with its large Chris Pine and its small Zach Quinto, should have clued me in; the balancing of the characters in this film was unlike anything in the original series films (where Kirk and Spock were co-equals) or the Next Generation films (where Picard and Data were co-leads, and everyone else in the ensemble was a replaceable non-entity), or even the two J.J. Abrams films. Everyone does stuff here in Beyond, but it's mixed and matched in different ways that had more in common with the way the television series back in the day handled its character dynamics.

And that's the start of where my expectations fell short. I found I couldn't really turn my writer-brain off and enjoy the film for itself. I kept taking it apart in my mind, and that put me at a distance from the experience of the film.

The script for Beyond was, after the labyrinthine script for Into Darkness, blissfully straightforward. It wasn't trying to tell a complex story; out on the frontier, the Enterprise responds to a distress call, discovers a mysterious planet, and things go very wrong. The characters behaved the way I know this crew should behave. The personal crises of Kirk and Spock worked and felt genuine. But it was also a very mechanical script. I kept seeing Chekhov's guns on the mantelpiece; when they fired and moved the story forward I wasn't surprised, and I could "feel" the act rollovers in its three-act structure like we were driving over speed bumps. (For the record, I'd mark them at Kirk abandoning the Enterprise, and the launch of the Franklin.)

I was also consciously aware that I was watching actors, in particular Quinto and Anton Yelchin. Quinto, because there were times where he didn't really look like Spock; there was something weird about his hair, or maybe his face wasn't properly gaunt at times. And Yelchin, because I was too often conscious that he'd just died in a strange car accident.

Midway through the film I wondered if Simon Pegg had read David Mack's Destiny trilogy. There were some similarities, from the direct (a lost 22nd-century pre-Federation Earth starship) to the more superficial (the crew of the lost starship becoming something other than human in their struggle to survive their fate). I'd been spoiled, thanks to advertising, on the fact that there was a twist on Idris Elba's character, but not the details or the nature of it.

Then I was curious what this story looked like in the original Star Trek timeline. Which Federation starship found the Franklin and its doomed? Did Starbase Yorktown exist? Then I thought it might not; Yorktown seems far more advanced than anything the Federation had in Picard's era.

I liked it. I felt that Beyond captured the "Horatio Hornblower in space" nature of Star Trek better than anything since Star Trek II. It also featured a sharply drawn take on Kirk as an introspective man with a deep curiosity who cares deeply for his crew and will go to the mat for them.

I probably won't go see it again; I'm content to wait for the home video release. It's very well made, and it's the most traditionally Star Trek movie we've had in a long, long time.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I'm not biased. You guys wouldn't even been having a conniption had I not said I didn't like the relationship. We don't know they are back together - fact. Simple as that. It has nothing to do with my distain for the relationship. We see Uhura smile and rub the amulet. That's all. We most likely will (sadly) see them rejoined in the next movie. you should rejoice in that assumption.

Nice. Funny stuff right there.

Most of the responses to you have nothing to do with whether the relationship is a good thing or not.

People object to your insistence that your interpretation of a scene is 'fact', especially since your interpretation clearly flies in the face of most of the actual hints given in the movie. There is no 'factual' breakup in the movie at all - it's implied, just like the reunification is implied - and there is literally no reason for the final scene between Spock and Uhura to exist at all if not to show them back together again.

And I freely acknowledge that the joke was a cliche - but you're the one seriously claiming that if something wasn't explicitly spelled out in the movie it can't possibly be true.

 

[Jedi_Master]

Fact: everything I post is a fact.

^Including that.

^^and that

 

[Noname Given]

New or not it's one of the few moments where Beyond attempts to tell a story and it barely connects to the majority of the movie.

I think it connects nicely myself. At the start of the film, Kirk is feeling disconnected from the Federation as a whole. He's just going through the motions, but doesn't see a point to any of it any more. Throughout the film, he 'reconnects' and realizes that his particular actions DO matter, and it gives him renewed enthusiasm, and further he sees his crew not just as a collection of people just doing their jobs - it's more a family, and in desperate times this family must rely on itself to get through.

 

[Yanks]

I found I couldn't really turn my writer-brain off and enjoy the film for itself. I kept taking it apart in my mind, and that put me at a distance from the experience of the film.

Isn't that the truth. I'm no writer, but spend tons of time talking trek here and other sites. Since I've become a part of the "critical community" I have to go see a trek movie twice to actually enjoy it.

People object to your insistence that your interpretation of a scene is 'fact', especially since your interpretation clearly flies in the face of most of the actual hints given in the movie. There is no 'factual' breakup in the movie at all - it's implied, just like the reunification is implied

Just reflecting what was on screen.

I see, everything is implied, therefore there was no break up.

But hey, I guess those hints are implied too... I guess I took those hints as they were probably going to get back together, but since it's all implied we don't need to worry about it.

Got it. Thanks

Over and out on this topic.

Fact: everything I post is a fact.

^Including that.

^^and that

And this!!!

 

[Makarov]

I get that Kirk is meant to find himself again, but nothing in the movie actually shows why. It's like they tried to tack on a story for him as bookends.

If we are to believe the crew captured and ship destruction changed him, how mundane was his time in space during the mission? In TOS the ship and crew are in danger all the time during those episodic adventures. I suppose Jaylah could have affected him but she interacted more with Scottie than Kirk. Surely he met aliens who wanted to join Starfleet during the mission as well.

 

[BillJ]

In TOS the ship and crew are in danger all the time during those episodic adventures.

But that was a fraction of the five-year mission. They were in any given adventure for a couple days in most instances. The totality of action was probably six months across five years.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I get that Kirk is meant to find himself again, but nothing in the movie actually shows why. It's like they tried to tack on a story for him as bookends.

If we are to believe the crew captured and ship destruction changed him, how mundane was his time in space during the mission? In TOS the ship and crew are in danger all the time during those episodic adventures. I suppose Jaylah could have affected him but she interacted more with Scottie than Kirk. Surely he met aliens who wanted to join Starfleet during the mission as well.

Why surely? How many times have we ever seen active duty officers dealing with aliens wanting to join starfleet? The only other time I remember was Nog.

And the TOS episodes are episodic: in other words, they cut out all the boring stuff and only showed you the small amount of times when the ship and crew were engaged in active adventures.

 

[Makarov]

But that was a fraction of the five-year mission. They were in any given adventure for a couple days in most instances. The totality of action was probably six months across five years.

If it was meant to be such a drag between missions then Kirk would start every episode depressed until something interesting happens. We have to believe none of this kirks adventures were exciting enough for him or got him attached to his crewmates until Krall wrecks the ship.