Maybe a category called "Something we haven't seen, but kinda have"
Poll STAR TREK 4: Guess that plot
- Thread starter NewHeavensNewEarth
- Start date
1. Search for Checkov
2. Search for whales
3. Search for God
4. Time Travel
So glad we have this Kelvin timeline so writers don't have to deal with all that has gone before.
Seriously, as long as it is not a retread I will be happy. If they can re-unite the timelines I'dbe ecstatic.
2. Search for whales
3. Search for God
4. Time Travel
So glad we have this Kelvin timeline so writers don't have to deal with all that has gone before.
Seriously, as long as it is not a retread I will be happy. If they can re-unite the timelines I'dbe ecstatic.
Yes. This would be awesome.
BIG NO on this point, though. I have zero interest in such a scenario.
Maybe they're searching for the aft nacelle.
I don't know, IMO it IS less legitimate..... 3 hollywood action movies, weak on plot and characterization, that destroy the characters AND the surrounding world (blowing up Vulcan, transwarp transporters, magic blood) and skip over all the character development needed to remotely make them likeable or familiar characters. If we could close off this tangent universe and bring things back in line, it at least could give a canon reason why the 23rd Prime is so totally re-imagined.
Some of you really, really, don't want to understand that there can't be any 'reuniting' the timelines because the kelvin reality is separate from tos. Precious prime isn't in 'danger', why you insist perceiving kelvin trek as a threat? What you are really asking here is them cancelling this reality as if it never existed, and basically invalidate the whole trilogy just because YOU don't like it. Which is, with all due respect, just idiotic (not to mention petty) from every possible perspective here including that of those who own trek and want to make money with it.
The kelvin reality is as legitimate and canon as any other trek iteration. If you think this trek is less legittimate you are wrong and projecting your bias for prime, making it merely a matter of principle than a fair, reasonable, argument.
Of course, you aren't forced to watch it still but some of you need to understand that the fans who like these movies* are legitimate fans no less than you, and they deserve the same respect you are asking from tptb.
I'm sick of people using nostalgia as a means to get their way and patronize kelvin trek fans. Because this is what you are doing since years, both here and elsewhere. If anything, frankly you are the ones who are off topic or out of place when it comes to a board about kelvin trek (someone could call it 'trolling'..), certaintly not the fans who just ask to see more of this iteration that they like.
And please, drop the gatekeeping crap.
*(friendly reminder they are more popular and critically acclaimed than most of the prime timeline movies, btw)
The kelvin reality is as legitimate and canon as any other trek iteration. If you think this trek is less legittimate you are wrong and projecting your bias for prime, making it merely a matter of principle than a fair, reasonable, argument.
Of course, you aren't forced to watch it still but some of you need to understand that the fans who like these movies* are legitimate fans no less than you, and they deserve the same respect you are asking from tptb.
I'm sick of people using nostalgia as a means to get their way and patronize kelvin trek fans. Because this is what you are doing since years, both here and elsewhere. If anything, frankly you are the ones who are off topic or out of place when it comes to a board about kelvin trek (someone could call it 'trolling'..), certaintly not the fans who just ask to see more of this iteration that they like.
And please, drop the gatekeeping crap.
*(friendly reminder they are more popular and critically acclaimed than most of the prime timeline movies, btw)
While the point you raise is valid — that this Kelvin timeline / alternate reality was created as a universe clearly separate from the "prime" one and intended for long-term examination across multiple stories, rather than as a temporary detour from the Usual Thing to be resolved neatly by Our Heroes by the end of the episode (and then never heard from ever again) — let's not let any differences of opinion about that get blown into personal confrontations. You can disagree with the position or conclusion expressed without taking any pokes at the person who expresses them.
You've just decided you don't like it. You're allowed to do that, of course, but let's not pretend your personal dislike of something renders it any less "legitimate" than a version you've decided you do like. You can vote your disapproval by not buying any more tickets or tie-in material to the version you like less, but you're not owed any explanations and you're not owed any "closing off" or "bringing back in line". If you like it, great; if you don't, then you don't, and that's pretty much that.
And I'm not sure the "skip over all the character development" bit could even be considered reasonable criticism. "All the character development" of the original series took place across 79 episodes (roughly 60 hours?) of TV show, a luxury simply not available to the makers of a film series now totaling a little over 6 hours of screen time. Nearly all the time they have is necessarily going to be used in telling the story. What character development that leaves room for is going to have to be brief and told in shorthand.
Consider: In the movies featuring the cast from the original TV series, the only one who underwent any character development at all was Spock, and that much was only possible because of the foundation Nimoy and the writers had had 79 episodes of storytelling time to establish.
With all due respect this misses the point. Star Trek, especially TOS, was an action/adventure pitch with social commentary built in to it. You may not like the characters but that doesn't mean they were not developed, or were appropriate for a Trek story.
There is no reason to "brings thing back in line" because they are not out of line. They are simply telling another story, which is something Trek has thrived on in many different formats.
And it's not mutually exclusive either. Prime and Kelvin exist side by side. So, if one isn't for you, then there is always the other. IDIC and all that.
I dislike it because it was disingenous in the way it was portrayed. If it was just a reboot then fine. Don't attach it to the Prime Universe, and crap all over the Prime Universe and everything that came before, while also completely change the way time travel and timelines have always been portrayed. I can't watch it without absolutely and logically *knowing* that this REWROTE the Prime Timeline, and it makes no narrative sense until they, as always, FIX THE PROBLEM, save the BILLIONS of lives that shoudln't have been lost, and restore some semblance of the original timeline. There is no reason that the Dept of Temporal Investigations, or Spock using the Guardian, or a slingshot, or *something* should not have happened to restore things to normal. It needs an ending, so one can watch, in order, the series of movies (ending with Nemesis), the Bad Robot movies, then continue on with Discovery and Picard, while actually getting a narrative that *makes sense*.
Just because someone says "for some reason this created a branch and not a rewrite!" doesn't mean that I can mentally accept that. If they had said on screen that it is a parallel universe, where some things are different, ala Fringe and Sliders, and Spock stayed because he felt responsible for all the damage caused to a Universe that they should have never even been in, that would have been fine. Spock being okay with literally everything he knew and his entire planet being destroyed, due to interference from himself and Nero, with the entire past being wiped out, is NOT acceptable to me.
Just because someone says "for some reason this created a branch and not a rewrite!" doesn't mean that I can mentally accept that. If they had said on screen that it is a parallel universe, where some things are different, ala Fringe and Sliders, and Spock stayed because he felt responsible for all the damage caused to a Universe that they should have never even been in, that would have been fine. Spock being okay with literally everything he knew and his entire planet being destroyed, due to interference from himself and Nero, with the entire past being wiped out, is NOT acceptable to me.
Alternate UNIVERSES are what parallels and MU episodes refer to, and they are NOT created by Time Travel. Time Travel rewrites the existing Universe's Timeline. Alternate Universes are pre-existing physical spaces. The Kelvin movies make it clear that it is history changed via interference rewriting the timeline. Its an alternate timeline, but not an alternate universe. Alternate timelines are in the same physical universe and replace what came before.
If they had made it clear that the Kelvin universe was a pre-existing, separate physical universe, that was damaged by Nero crossing over, that would be one thing, but instead they used time travel to rewrite, which we have seen countless times (City, Yesterday's Enterprise, etc) - so does the Nazi timeline still exist? The Klingon war timeline? If they never actually fixed anything, and the universes still exist, then it takes every bit of drama and stakes out of literally every time travel episode ever done.
Alt Universes and Alt Timelines are very, very different things, with different rules and mechanisms that the '09 writers knew and cared little about.
If they had made it clear that the Kelvin universe was a pre-existing, separate physical universe, that was damaged by Nero crossing over, that would be one thing, but instead they used time travel to rewrite, which we have seen countless times (City, Yesterday's Enterprise, etc) - so does the Nazi timeline still exist? The Klingon war timeline? If they never actually fixed anything, and the universes still exist, then it takes every bit of drama and stakes out of literally every time travel episode ever done.
Alt Universes and Alt Timelines are very, very different things, with different rules and mechanisms that the '09 writers knew and cared little about.
They wanted the original timeline altered 'alternate reality' over any parallel/alternate universe thing as its a much bigger deal that Nero had changed the 'star trek' timeline (wiping everything that came before in the minds of the average Joe audience. The fans could read Countdown and be like 'oh ok' ...and now of course theres Picard )
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It didn't. In fact, it was more in spirit of TOS than TNG and the following installments.
No, it didn't. As Trek has repeatedly demonstrated, there are many different ways of traveling through time, and gravity is one of those things that impacts how such travel happens. Perhaps the gravity of an artificial singularity?
Which one is the original? We see multiple timelines that branch off from singular moments (again, reiterating, Parallels), and that the crew doesn't always fix it. For instance, in Parallels, there is no guarantee that all the other Worfs will be restored. But, that question is left unresolved.
The original timeline would be from the perspective of those participating in the timeline, wouldn't it?
Then, with due respect, that is on you. Because it is in the text, implied by dialog and Prime Spock's actions. It doesn't need to be spelled out in black and white terms that is trapped in a box.
With due respect, they did know, and chose to interpret differently. There is no reason to disparage them when they can't defend themselves, especially over an interpretation of how time travel works. Literally, Trek is constantly dealing with things that the characters insist are impossible only to do it in the episode.
TL;DR you're bothered that the film didn't live up to your expectations of how the Trek universe worked to that point, and as a consequence you're condemning a film trilogy as illegitimate.
Does that about sum it up?
When it literally as a plot point wipes out everything in the first 50 years of narrative, yeah, pretty much.
Thats not even counting things like blowing up Vulcan, and cadet-to-Captain, and countless other nonsensical plot points, like transwarp beaming and magic blood.... yeah, it kind of ruins everything and makes nonsense out of everything that came before.
It wasn't good storytelling, and had no internal logic with the previous franchise. It never followed its own rules.
All of that could have been ignored if it was a pure reboot.
Then just ignore it. No obligation to regard it in anyway.
Never mind my disagreements over "magic blood" which is actually probably one of the more scientific things presented in Star Trek, period. Something similar to transwarp beaming has been used too, not to mention my personal love of these characters.
So, perhaps ignoring these films would be helpful. IDIC right?
It hasn't. The film goes out of it's way to explain this.
Star Trek has always played fast and loose with how time travel is portrayed or how it affects things. Star Trek 2009 is not new in this regard.
It didn't. Otherwise old Spock would not be able to retain his memories of it, because it wouldn't exist. The only thing that occurred in the Prime timeline that affected things, was the Hobus supernova, and as the Prime timeline post Nemesis was as dead as a doornail in 2009 due to the mishandling of the franchise and Nemesis bombing at the box office like no other trek film had ever done before, I don't see a problem with this.
Nothing needs 'fixing' - the Kelvin films stand on their own, with a link to the 'Prime' timeline to satisfy long time fans such as myself, which I thought was a stroke of genius. Nothing has been spoilt, overwritten or anything - you can still watch your Prime DVDs, just as you always could, and in fact, you can watch the continuation of the prime timeline in the New Year with the Picard show - happy days eh?
The Kelvin movies make perfect sense to me.
That's your problem.
