Didn't know this. Thanks.
Spoilers ST Picard - Starships and Technology Season Two Discussion
- Thread starter Mark_Nguyen
- Start date
Didn't know this. Thanks.
Oh, it's like it's Christmas! Assorted ships from the S2 “new hotness fleet” are starting to pop up now on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/captain_revo/status/1500764252893859841?s=21
https://twitter.com/captain_revo/status/1500769198880043010?s=21
@treksphere and @daveblass on Twitter have all the rest and more. Thread starts here, and list all THIRTY FOUR ships we see in the episode with names and NCCs:
https://twitter.com/daveblass/status/1500760856677675008?s=21
That fleet chart - wow!
https://twitter.com/daveblass/status/1500771118726070279?s=21
Mark
https://twitter.com/captain_revo/status/1500764252893859841?s=21
https://twitter.com/captain_revo/status/1500769198880043010?s=21
@treksphere and @daveblass on Twitter have all the rest and more. Thread starts here, and list all THIRTY FOUR ships we see in the episode with names and NCCs:
https://twitter.com/daveblass/status/1500760856677675008?s=21
That fleet chart - wow!
https://twitter.com/daveblass/status/1500771118726070279?s=21
Mark
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And while we’re at it, the guys behind those wicked curved display screens have released a couple images:
https://twitter.com/siscreens/status/1500092735533068289?s=21
Not sure what to make of the second image, though it’s PROBABLY a placeholder of some kind. The map graphic was from S1 of Discovery.
Mark
https://twitter.com/siscreens/status/1500092735533068289?s=21
Not sure what to make of the second image, though it’s PROBABLY a placeholder of some kind. The map graphic was from S1 of Discovery.
Mark
Some additional notes from all this stuff:
- The presence of all the cool ships from Star Trek Online, while awesome, does not necessarily mean that their design histories as-published are also canonized. The recent move of the post-TNG Star Trek novelverse to "Legends" status as an alternate history means that all the stuff leading up to 2409 in STO should probably be considered a further timeline divergence. But you know, canon is as canon does...
- Per the Twitter posters of EVERY SHIP IN THE FLEET!!!!!, the assorted Sovereign-class ships seen in the fleet (yay!) seem to represent not one, but TWO variants to add to the ones of the Enterprise-E seen in the movies. These Sovereigns seem to have the general shape of the early version of the E-E model, with lower nacelles and no dorsal reinforcement around the main shuttlebay; however there are the additional phaser banks on the nacelle pylons from the Nemesis version, as well as at least the additional forward dorsal torpedo launcher (and possibly others). The USS Valkyrie however ALSO mounts the aft dorsal launchers that the other ships lack, making it another version or at least minor variant thereof..! But some like the Gilgamesh (surely of Gilgamesh and Enkidu at Uruk fame - ask any Child of Tama) or a new USS Venture may lack the pylon-mounted phaser banks and the forward torpedo tube, making them closer to the OG Sovereign.
- I'm sure we're going to be spending a while reconciling this "Excelsior II" class ship with the apparently newer Obena-class from LDS, as well as the previously-seen Excelsiors over the years. For starters, if you subscribe to the sequential NCC theory, the Excelsior seen here is NCC-42037, alongside the USS Eureka NCC-42023, which is concurrent with AND earlier than many other classic Excelsiors, notably the USS Hood NCC-42296 and a bunch of others in the 4XXXX neighborhood. This suggests that the Excelsior II class could have been produced concurrently to the "legacy" version for a while. I see no problem with this - could be an experimental renewal of the existing design, or possibly an extensive, Constitution-esque refit thereof, even if the ship lengths suggest it's a bit more than a new skin over the old bones.
- Its is however worth pointing out that this Excelsior may cause a Melbourne-style conflict, as another Excelsior, NCC-21145 is active in the TNG "Measure of a Man", though the Excelsior mentioned in TNG "Interface" five years later could be either example.
- The Ross-class starships Vanguard, NCC-75148 and Yi-Sun-Sin, NCC-76545 are both higher than the screen-seen Galaxy-class ships in the TNG-era. The Online descriptions have her as a sort of bridge between the Galaxy and Sovereign classes, but could they be the actual replacement successor for the Galaxy-class ships seen in the era? Lots of fan speculation has been made of the Galaxy class potential design weaknesses overall (which I don't personally subscribe to) after losing three of them in the space of seven years, not counting the Dominion War or assorted losses of the Enterprise-D in alternate realities or time loops. Maybe this is so, but OTOH the original USS Galaxy would be 45 years old by 2401, so having these two be around and "only" 25 years old or so would be a decent upgrade.
- Regarding age, the Vanguard puts its age as concurrent with the USS Sao Paulo, NCC-75633, suggesting it could have been active at the end of the Dominion War and of a similar age as the USS Cerritos, NCC-75567. Thanks @Mike McDevitt for the pointer on this.
- The Inquiry-class ships in the fleet are all of the same variant as the Zheng He. Not really an omission or anything, as the other variants were tough to pick out even before this.
- Regarding THIS Twitter picture of a "Picard" crew guy waring a "GAZER" hipster T-shirt is on the Stargazer bridge, showing the big doors actually open and thus that the conference room directly opens onto the bridge - so why did the gang enter the bridge from the starboard lift doors at the end of the episode? And THIS Tweet shows that the starboard station label can indeed be changed - it's a "Science I" station here, where in the episode it was labeled "propulsion". I wonder what happened there - the function of the console (and the blueshirt sitting there) was definitely more as a Communications / Science station in the episode, but the episode itself kept with the Engineering/Propulsion labelling. The freestanding console on the port side of the main viewer was labelled as a Science station, so the Stargazer definitely HAD one...
- And over HERE, it looks like Picard wasn't joking about a having a Promellian battlecruiser as a ship in a bottle!
- And finally, while THIS is technically from the next season of "Picard", it's clearly based on the later TNG transporter room pad design, which survived when the set was reworked into the one on Voyager.
Mark
- The presence of all the cool ships from Star Trek Online, while awesome, does not necessarily mean that their design histories as-published are also canonized. The recent move of the post-TNG Star Trek novelverse to "Legends" status as an alternate history means that all the stuff leading up to 2409 in STO should probably be considered a further timeline divergence. But you know, canon is as canon does...
- Per the Twitter posters of EVERY SHIP IN THE FLEET!!!!!, the assorted Sovereign-class ships seen in the fleet (yay!) seem to represent not one, but TWO variants to add to the ones of the Enterprise-E seen in the movies. These Sovereigns seem to have the general shape of the early version of the E-E model, with lower nacelles and no dorsal reinforcement around the main shuttlebay; however there are the additional phaser banks on the nacelle pylons from the Nemesis version, as well as at least the additional forward dorsal torpedo launcher (and possibly others). The USS Valkyrie however ALSO mounts the aft dorsal launchers that the other ships lack, making it another version or at least minor variant thereof..! But some like the Gilgamesh (surely of Gilgamesh and Enkidu at Uruk fame - ask any Child of Tama) or a new USS Venture may lack the pylon-mounted phaser banks and the forward torpedo tube, making them closer to the OG Sovereign.
- I'm sure we're going to be spending a while reconciling this "Excelsior II" class ship with the apparently newer Obena-class from LDS, as well as the previously-seen Excelsiors over the years. For starters, if you subscribe to the sequential NCC theory, the Excelsior seen here is NCC-42037, alongside the USS Eureka NCC-42023, which is concurrent with AND earlier than many other classic Excelsiors, notably the USS Hood NCC-42296 and a bunch of others in the 4XXXX neighborhood. This suggests that the Excelsior II class could have been produced concurrently to the "legacy" version for a while. I see no problem with this - could be an experimental renewal of the existing design, or possibly an extensive, Constitution-esque refit thereof, even if the ship lengths suggest it's a bit more than a new skin over the old bones.
- Its is however worth pointing out that this Excelsior may cause a Melbourne-style conflict, as another Excelsior, NCC-21145 is active in the TNG "Measure of a Man", though the Excelsior mentioned in TNG "Interface" five years later could be either example.
- The Ross-class starships Vanguard, NCC-75148 and Yi-Sun-Sin, NCC-76545 are both higher than the screen-seen Galaxy-class ships in the TNG-era. The Online descriptions have her as a sort of bridge between the Galaxy and Sovereign classes, but could they be the actual replacement successor for the Galaxy-class ships seen in the era? Lots of fan speculation has been made of the Galaxy class potential design weaknesses overall (which I don't personally subscribe to) after losing three of them in the space of seven years, not counting the Dominion War or assorted losses of the Enterprise-D in alternate realities or time loops. Maybe this is so, but OTOH the original USS Galaxy would be 45 years old by 2401, so having these two be around and "only" 25 years old or so would be a decent upgrade.
- Regarding age, the Vanguard puts its age as concurrent with the USS Sao Paulo, NCC-75633, suggesting it could have been active at the end of the Dominion War and of a similar age as the USS Cerritos, NCC-75567. Thanks @Mike McDevitt for the pointer on this.
- The Inquiry-class ships in the fleet are all of the same variant as the Zheng He. Not really an omission or anything, as the other variants were tough to pick out even before this.
- Regarding THIS Twitter picture of a "Picard" crew guy waring a "GAZER" hipster T-shirt is on the Stargazer bridge, showing the big doors actually open and thus that the conference room directly opens onto the bridge - so why did the gang enter the bridge from the starboard lift doors at the end of the episode? And THIS Tweet shows that the starboard station label can indeed be changed - it's a "Science I" station here, where in the episode it was labeled "propulsion". I wonder what happened there - the function of the console (and the blueshirt sitting there) was definitely more as a Communications / Science station in the episode, but the episode itself kept with the Engineering/Propulsion labelling. The freestanding console on the port side of the main viewer was labelled as a Science station, so the Stargazer definitely HAD one...
- And over HERE, it looks like Picard wasn't joking about a having a Promellian battlecruiser as a ship in a bottle!
- And finally, while THIS is technically from the next season of "Picard", it's clearly based on the later TNG transporter room pad design, which survived when the set was reworked into the one on Voyager.
Mark
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Shuttle addendum:
- At least from the design sketches, the Type-14 "USS" Jemison long-range shuttle in the episode is almost exactly the same as the Type-11 shuttle seen in TNG "Insurrection", bar a few stylistic changes and some new pylons, plus nacelles that ape those of the new Stargazer.
- Are we to posit then that at least some 2401 shuttles are routinely capable of high warp? The Jemison and the Type-11 are functionally almost as big as a runabout, which was supposed to be a warp 5-ish vessel (though Jake wanted to take the Rio Grande to warp 8 in one episode).
- In terms of estimating the shuttle's speed or range, while warp speed travel overall has rarely been consistent in Trek, there are a few clues. The whole episode takes place over the course of 48 hours, and Picard left to meet up with the Stargazer towards the end of that period. Wherever the spatial anomaly was, it probably wasn't TOO far away from Earth, but also not TOO far away from Raritan IV either. Raritan is in the Beta Quadrant, but we know that Earth straddles Alpha and Beta, so it's not too indicative of locations overall.
- Either way, it's PROBABLY not the transwarp aperture "less than a light year" from Earth per VOY "Endgame", which was collapsed along with the rest of the known network, at least until Seven brings it up again in Picard S1.
Mark
- At least from the design sketches, the Type-14 "USS" Jemison long-range shuttle in the episode is almost exactly the same as the Type-11 shuttle seen in TNG "Insurrection", bar a few stylistic changes and some new pylons, plus nacelles that ape those of the new Stargazer.
- Are we to posit then that at least some 2401 shuttles are routinely capable of high warp? The Jemison and the Type-11 are functionally almost as big as a runabout, which was supposed to be a warp 5-ish vessel (though Jake wanted to take the Rio Grande to warp 8 in one episode).
- In terms of estimating the shuttle's speed or range, while warp speed travel overall has rarely been consistent in Trek, there are a few clues. The whole episode takes place over the course of 48 hours, and Picard left to meet up with the Stargazer towards the end of that period. Wherever the spatial anomaly was, it probably wasn't TOO far away from Earth, but also not TOO far away from Raritan IV either. Raritan is in the Beta Quadrant, but we know that Earth straddles Alpha and Beta, so it's not too indicative of locations overall.
- Either way, it's PROBABLY not the transwarp aperture "less than a light year" from Earth per VOY "Endgame", which was collapsed along with the rest of the known network, at least until Seven brings it up again in Picard S1.
Mark
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I noticed the ship in a bottle too and was wondering what was inside it. Now I know!
Finally, someone’s using Twitter in an actual useful way.
Thomas Marrone, who wrote most of the STO lore for the new ships, is posting snippets thereof. As mentioned above, I'm not sure if it's meant to be canon to the Online-less Prime timeline, but it provides lots of nice context:
https://twitter.com/thomasthecat/status/1500855182204096512
Mark
https://twitter.com/thomasthecat/status/1500855182204096512
Mark
The Promellian ship in the bottle was seen in the first teaser, and they said it's the EM one a year ago
Well, I didn’t know any of that.
This was the best day ever for Ship Porn! Can you imagine if we'd have this kind of interaction concerning the Fleet fighting the Borg at Sector 001.. my God. Picard S02E01 is probably the best thing Starship-wise since the Dominion War! (Also looks like Magellan and Venture may not have survived it either..)
Well, the DS9 Magellan may have had a long postwar career, if you go by NCC number, before the newer Inquiry-class ship appeared. The Venture may have been lost and replaced DURING the war!
And contrast this with what we’ve learned about that FIRST fleet assembled to fight the Borg at Wolf 359. Thirty years on, and we’ve identified less than half of the ships that were there, by appearances from named models, background kitbashes, or dialogue references from three different series. In one fell swoop we have EVERY ship named and numbered in a similarly-sized fleet, within days of the airing of the episode! Ain’t we spoiled, and what a great time to be a Trek nerd!
Mark
And contrast this with what we’ve learned about that FIRST fleet assembled to fight the Borg at Wolf 359. Thirty years on, and we’ve identified less than half of the ships that were there, by appearances from named models, background kitbashes, or dialogue references from three different series. In one fell swoop we have EVERY ship named and numbered in a similarly-sized fleet, within days of the airing of the episode! Ain’t we spoiled, and what a great time to be a Trek nerd!
Mark
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If yesterday was Christmas, is today Boxing Day? Dave Blass has posted the text and graphics from the starship displays at the Academy.
https://twitter.com/DaveBlass/status/1501055817088335873?s=20&t=PHATza1MWNS-7Bl0Hvd5oQ
Notes:
- Starfleet Academy has "satellite campuses on over 60 Federation worlds". Are we talking places like the base on Relva VII, where Wesley Crusher took the entrance exams in TNG "Coming of Age"? It looks like it wasn't a starbase proper.
- The Phoenix's first warp flight as described here matches that of the unaltered history, pre "First Contact". Strangely though, it omits the ACTUAL first contact that happened as a direct result of that flight!
- The TWOK USS Reliant ONLY describes her final mission and unfortunate fate. Why would this be worth putting on display? A reminder to all that anything can happen, and that KHAN = BAD? I mean, this was also allegedly the last time one Starfleet ship fired on another until DS9 "Paradise Lost", why not bring up that particular nugget?
- The Excesior NCC-2000 was in service from 2285 to 2320, and apparently Sulu stayed in command for basically the whole time since he took command three years prior to TUC - possibly the record in the fleet, for an officer maintaining command of a single ship. What a guy.
- Why do I say possibly? Why, because the USS Leondegrance was Captained by Nyota Uhura from 2301-2333! What a gal. However, her command started with a five-year mission to the "Lesser Magellanic Cloud", aka the SMALL Magellanic Cloud, which is ironically the further dwarf galaxy of the two clouds. Located some 206,000 light years away, I'm guessing that the Leondegrance was able to get there through some wormhole or other spatial anomaly.
(Noting that in at least one TOS novel, a starship was mentioned as making the trip out to one of the clouds. Memory Beta lists a fair number of things that happen out there. Pretty happening joint for a place so far away.)
- For anyone wondering what happened to the wreckage of the Enterprise-D's saucer, it was retrieved from the surface of Veridian III and is now in the fleet museum!
- Voyager was apparently retired from service after she got back from the Delta Quadrant (sorry, novelverse!). Does that mean there COULD be a Voyager-A out there already? The plaque itself awkwardly lists Voyager as "declared lost" in 2373, which is technically true, but there's no mention of her actual disappearance in 2371 unless the reader does some math.
Mark
https://twitter.com/DaveBlass/status/1501055817088335873?s=20&t=PHATza1MWNS-7Bl0Hvd5oQ
Notes:
- Starfleet Academy has "satellite campuses on over 60 Federation worlds". Are we talking places like the base on Relva VII, where Wesley Crusher took the entrance exams in TNG "Coming of Age"? It looks like it wasn't a starbase proper.
- The Phoenix's first warp flight as described here matches that of the unaltered history, pre "First Contact". Strangely though, it omits the ACTUAL first contact that happened as a direct result of that flight!
- The TWOK USS Reliant ONLY describes her final mission and unfortunate fate. Why would this be worth putting on display? A reminder to all that anything can happen, and that KHAN = BAD? I mean, this was also allegedly the last time one Starfleet ship fired on another until DS9 "Paradise Lost", why not bring up that particular nugget?
- The Excesior NCC-2000 was in service from 2285 to 2320, and apparently Sulu stayed in command for basically the whole time since he took command three years prior to TUC - possibly the record in the fleet, for an officer maintaining command of a single ship. What a guy.
- Why do I say possibly? Why, because the USS Leondegrance was Captained by Nyota Uhura from 2301-2333! What a gal. However, her command started with a five-year mission to the "Lesser Magellanic Cloud", aka the SMALL Magellanic Cloud, which is ironically the further dwarf galaxy of the two clouds. Located some 206,000 light years away, I'm guessing that the Leondegrance was able to get there through some wormhole or other spatial anomaly.
(Noting that in at least one TOS novel, a starship was mentioned as making the trip out to one of the clouds. Memory Beta lists a fair number of things that happen out there. Pretty happening joint for a place so far away.)
- For anyone wondering what happened to the wreckage of the Enterprise-D's saucer, it was retrieved from the surface of Veridian III and is now in the fleet museum!
- Voyager was apparently retired from service after she got back from the Delta Quadrant (sorry, novelverse!). Does that mean there COULD be a Voyager-A out there already? The plaque itself awkwardly lists Voyager as "declared lost" in 2373, which is technically true, but there's no mention of her actual disappearance in 2371 unless the reader does some math.
Mark
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There should be more StarFleet Academy bases, basically, at least one per Member World of the UFP.
Are we on a "New Timeline" then if the contents of "First Contact" aren't stated.
Maybe it was a famous incident thanks to it being related to Captain Kirk's adventures?
35 years is impressive.
It wouldn't be the first ship in StarFleet history to do that, it probably won't be the last.
God knows how many worm holes are hidden inside the MilkyWay.
A monument to what happens when your Cyber Security protocols SUCK and let critical info slip by because of malware.
Voyager must've earned alot of fans with it's grand tale to return home.
5 of the 8 ships had something bad happen to them.
Constellation - all crew lost, destroyed stopping Doomsday Machine. Reliant destroyed attacking Enterprise. Stargazer - abandoned after destroying Ferengi attacker. Enterprise-D - crashed into planet. Voyager - lost and presumed destroyed until returning back to Federation space.
If it is a pattern, that doesn't bode well to Excelsior, Leondegrance and Phoenix. Otherwise, it's a really weird cautionary message to starfleet graduates about the dangers of space?
Constellation - all crew lost, destroyed stopping Doomsday Machine. Reliant destroyed attacking Enterprise. Stargazer - abandoned after destroying Ferengi attacker. Enterprise-D - crashed into planet. Voyager - lost and presumed destroyed until returning back to Federation space.
If it is a pattern, that doesn't bode well to Excelsior, Leondegrance and Phoenix. Otherwise, it's a really weird cautionary message to starfleet graduates about the dangers of space?
I posited that the whole scene was a class of cadets heading off on their second year field study. The displays could be a warning to the cadets that AWFUL THINGS CAN HAPPEN if you don't pay attention. :P
Mark
Mark
The plaque says Captain Sulu was in command of Excelsior from 2287 to 2320. Captain Lawrence H. Styles was apparently in command for two spacedock-bound years after STIII (sorry, DC comics universe!)
I mean, isn't risk their business? One of the biggest things that I don't get is the tendency to shield people from bad news. These ships probably had distinctive careers in some way but still suffered tragedy. Do you want to do this?
Reminds me a bit of Space Cadet, the Heinlein book.
Wikipedia says it's named after the WWI era dreadnought, which was in turn named after Queen Elizabeth I.
That plaque was fully visible on screen?
Sure, I get it if the message to the cadets is that their career is a dangerous job. But my initial thought was a bit of sadness for Sulu's and Uhura's ships and the fate of their captain and crew.
@Ronald Held - I think on screen you could barely read the Stargazer's plaque. All the other ones were too far away or out of focus.
