Spoilers ST Lower Decks - Starships and Technology Season Three Discussion

[Unicron]

The SOTS version of the Constitution II/Enterprise II are variants of the TMP design, but only constitute a small number of builds or refits. For my part, I treat them as basically being variants of the Enterprise class and not so much a separate subclass. That series also has the Miranda type builds as being direct evolutions of the Coventry/Surya designs, which are essentially TOS type Mirandas with no rollbar (an addition unique to the later Avenger/Miranda model).

I also like the idea that designations like Miranda and Oberth could refer specifically to models in service in TNG, and thus not necessarily conflict with class names in sources like FASA and SOTS (for headcanon anyway). FASA had several variations of the Oberth family that outwardly looked identical and only had different internal variations, with the Tsiokolvsky being a Sagan class refit (which was intended to modernize the design for the TNG era but only a small number were apparently built). Starfleet would have also been working on prototypes for vessels like the Nova class at this point, so I can see fewer refits occurring. Especially adding in the Jackill's subclasses as well, which mean that Starfleet had gotten a lot of good use out of the design.

I use a similar headcanon system to reconcile the canon Ambassador with the one FASA created for the TNG Officer's Manual, which is entirely different (based on dialogue from "Conspiracy"). The FASA Ambassador seems like a curious hybrid of Excelsior and Constitution/Enterprise elements, and was apparently designed to fill the heavy cruiser with a much more powerful armament (lots of phasers and 15 torpedo tubes) due to tensions at the time with both the Klingons and the Romulans. The Excelsiors were considered battleships in the FASA continuity.

Only 15 vessels were built and several of those had been lost in the line of duty by TNG season 1, so I like the idea that this Ambassador simply didn't work out as it was initially planned. It was overgunned and likely expensive to produce relative to its utility, in an era where the Klingons were becoming an ally (and actually Federation members, if one takes the OM's approach ) and the Romulans had gone into isolation for decades. Perhaps some of them fought in the Cardassian wars of the 2350s and were lost or damaged that way.

So the canon Ambassador class (which in this context I call the Ambassador II), as we see in TNG, was selected as an alternative design concept that more accurately kept the traditional cruiser balance of systems and could also employ more advanced systems than those used to build the Ambassador Is. Those Ambassadors were eventually retired from service and the Ambassador IIs had a longer service life.

Headcanon is so fun...

 

[Spike730]

Also, the Excelsior II looks even more advanced than the Galaxy and Sovereign classes, which wouldn’t be the case if they were built pre-TNG.

Apart from the nacelles it looks very much 23rd century to me. I'm not a big fan of reusing class-names and just adding a numeral and I prefer the lead ship to have the lowest registry. So as far as I'm concerned "Excelsior II class" ist just the nickname of the production team but in-universe it's called something else. And I see it as a mid-24th century design which got an extensive refit at some point.

As for the low NCC Californias, I see no problems with the class being a contemporary of the Ambassador-class. I think Mike McMahan stated that the class was always around, we just didn't see it. As for the Solvang being brand-new, I chalk that up to a very extensive refit.

Regarding the two Eurekas, I think that happens when you have 3 shows basically in the same timeframe but nobody bothers to keep track of these sort of things anymore. I mean, Prodigy got away with using different uniforms and insignia than the PIC flashbacks. Same goes for LD which still uses the FC uniforms in 2381, even though the PIC uniforms were already in use in 2381.

 

[fireproof78]

I don’t particularly like that theory, but at least it would explain the low numbers better than had they just been assigned randomly.

I myself am not a huge fan of making new ships resemble old ships. I didn’t like it when LDS showed the Obena, I didn’t like it when PIC showed the Excelsior II (although I do like the design of the ship), and I certainly didn’t like it when they revealed the Titan-A. Things like that smack of laziness and unoriginality to me.

While I can appreciate the point of view, I do not agree. Starfleet has always struck me as a very odd organization, that prefers the status quo and looking to the history, while looking at the future with a hand firmly on the past. The Excelsior always struck me as a ship designed with the Constitution in mind. It was to fill in that role, while looking to that class as an inspiration of longevity.

That's why I like it when the ships look like old classes. The Constitution to Excelsior is probably my favorite transition because it feels smooth, it feels like they looked at the history and said, "Yes, this is what we want. It represents the best of our ideals."

Now, that is probably poor engineering philosophy but that was always the impression of Starfleet.

Yeah, I wonder if there was any rationale behind that choice or simply lack of consideration for what came before.

On the other hand, I would also like to know if they intend the 'Constitution II' class to be the 2270s Constitution refit as we know it, or something else completely. Are the Roman-numbered classes new builds, refits or some of both?

I think it's a combination. Basically, taking a classic type class, one with rich history, and being informed by the original class. Just like the name of "Enterprise" carries a certain weight and profound nature, so can the class of ship be a reflection of an organization's mission.

Again, this is not an engineering point of view. This is a philosophical point of view, but one that Starfleet often embraces through it's long obsession with specific ship names.

 

[Dukhat]

As for the low NCC Californias, I see no problems with the class being a contemporary of the Ambassador-class. I think Mike McMahan stated that the class was always around, we just didn't see it. As for the Solvang being brand-new, I chalk that up to a very extensive refit.

It's actually kind of ambiguous what he said. I thought he meant that general support and 'second contact' ships were always around, not the California class specifically. And I've seen no evidence that the California class has been refit to look like it does presently, from some other, less advanced design from several decades in the past.

That's why I like it when the ships look like old classes. The Constitution to Excelsior is probably my favorite transition because it feels smooth, it feels like they looked at the history and said, "Yes, this is what we want. It represents the best of our ideals."

That is not at all what I am talking about. The Excelsior is from the same generation as the TMP Constitution refit, and doesn't use a single similar part. As you say, it is a logical transition from the Constitution. It is not a kitbash of similar parts. The Obena class is over a hundred years newer than the Excelsior class and from the side view is largely identical to the Enterprise-B version, other than the Sovereign nacelles. The Titan-A's saucer is also largely identical to the TMP Constitution class's, other than not being entirely round. And the entire ship is largely identical to the fan-made TMP-era design that it is tributing. It looks completely out of place for a ship from the year 2400.

 

[Ronald Held]

Maybe Starfleet designs looking retro is due to the majority being humans in key positions?

 

[fireproof78]

That is not at all what I am talking about. The Excelsior is from the same generation as the TMP Constitution refit, and doesn't use a single similar part. As you say, it is a logical transition from the Constitution. It is not a kitbash of similar parts. The Obena class is over a hundred years newer than the Excelsior class and from the side view is largely identical to the Enterprise-B version, other than the Sovereign nacelles. The Titan-A's saucer is also largely identical to the TMP Constitution class's, other than not being entirely round. And the entire ship is largely identical to the fan-made TMP-era design that it is tributing. It looks completely out of place for a ship from the year 2400.

I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I see no issue with Starfleet using retro designs. Especially in an organization with replicators able to produce just about anything. To me, a nonissue. Mileage will definitely vary. Also, I'm substantially biased as I think 2400 era ships look like garbage. I welcome the retro design.

 

[Dukhat]

I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I see no issue with Starfleet using retro designs. Especially in an organization with replicators able to produce just about anything. To me, a nonissue. Mileage will definitely vary. Also, I'm substantially biased as I think 2400 era ships look like garbage. I welcome the retro design.

I like the TMP era designs as well. I just find it unbelievable that (according to the showrunner), Starfleet all of a sudden decided that they need their new exploration ships to look like ships from a century+ before. The look of the ship should have zero bearing on its mission.

 

[fireproof78]

I like the TMP era designs as well. I just find it unbelievable that (according to the showrunner), Starfleet all of a sudden decided that they need their new exploration ships to look like ships from a century+ before. The look of the ship should have zero bearing on its mission.

That's a practical concern. To me, the look of it is all about a mission and organizational concern. In other words, it's a PR move to sell Starfleet as that exploratory force that gave rise to great captains like Kirk, rather than stuck in crisis after crisis with the Cardassian War, the Klingon War, the Dominion War, and the Romulus supernova. It's all about image presentation.

Like I said, not an engineering problem. It's one of psychology and the impact such an image would look like would evoke in this who studied the great Starfleet captains of the past.

 

[Dukhat]

That's a practical concern. To me, the look of it is all about a mission and organizational concern. In other words, it's a PR move to sell Starfleet as that exploratory force that gave rise to great captains like Kirk, rather than stuck in crisis after crisis with the Cardassian War, the Klingon War, the Dominion War, and the Romulus supernova. It's all about image presentation.

Like I said, not an engineering problem. It's one of psychology and the impact such an image would look like would evoke in this who studied the great Starfleet captains of the past.

I'm not really buying any of that. But that's me.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm not really buying any of that. But that's me.

I wouldn't either until the US Army attempted to bring back a style based upon the WW2 dress uniform, I believe called the pinks and greens. Nostalgia and history, especially within an organization, is a powerful force, and creates a more united feel.

You might not buy it. That's fine, not everyone does. But that doesn't exclude it from the realm of possibility.

 

[Dukhat]

I wouldn't either until the US Army attempted to bring back a style based upon the WW2 dress uniform, I believe called the pinks and greens. Nostalgia and history, especially within an organization, is a powerful force, and creates a more united feel.

You might not buy it. That's fine, not everyone does. But that doesn't exclude it from the realm of possibility.

There's a huge difference between throwback uniforms and a ship that looks like it came from 150 years prior.

 

[fireproof78]

There's a huge difference between throwback uniforms and a ship that looks like it came from 150 years prior.

I don't see the difference in a post scarcity economy. To me, the purpose is the same.

 

[Dukhat]

Then we'll agree to disagree, like we always tend to do.

 

[fireproof78]

Then we'll agree to disagree, like we always tend to do.

As you say...

 

[Deks]

Maybe Starfleet designs looking retro is due to the majority being humans in key positions?

Nah... maybe it has more to do with the idead that despite the fact if the ships are old, they are constantly upgraded externally and internally over time (with the infrastructure).
I mean, what would be the point in discarding a 100 year old ship if its been upgraded with latest technology (and infrastructure refreshed) and operates on the same level like any other modern starship of the given era?
They have replicators and transporters... this kind of work can be done fairly easily with that kind of technology.

Bearing in mind of course that even retro designs will eventually undergo changes externally which will affect its look (it will keep general design flow, etc. and retain the same class designation, but otherwise it would be a completely new ship on the inside and out).

This is also why it makes little sense that SF would have so many different classes of ships by the 25th century. It's like every little variation of a Nebula or Galaxy class would be a design in its own right.
I mean, WHY?
Same with the Obena class being completely new as opposed to being late 24th century Excelsior upgrade (I mean it was literally Sovereig-ned - to me that says that SF just wanted a quick fix which would bring the Excelsior into the modern age externally and overcome some design limitations the original version had - at least until the Excelsior II enters the scene in about 20 odd years as seen in Pic S2).

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

Huh, I just noticed that the battle in this year's finale didn't at all show the planet that Douglas Station is orbiting. We saw the battle from pretty much every angle possible around the station, so unless they reserved a specific arc of the background and kept the cameras consistently between the planet and the station, then the planet was quietly omitted from the episode so the animators choreographing the battle wouldn't have to worry about where it was placed at any given time.

To explain it though, would they or could they have moved the station? And why? OTOH, NASA just launched a moon-bound Orion spacecraft whose lunar orbit goes from 100km to 64,000km (!) in a highly elliptical, distant retrograde orbit. If Douglas station were in such an orbit, it could mean that the sphere they're circling could be a moon of a much larger planet, as these kinds of stable orbits are dependent on Lagrange points between a star, planet and moon. Fun food for thought.

Mark

 

[David cgc]

There are a couple of shots that use the stock establishing angle of the Starbase with the planet visible, here, and when the Cerritos starts drawing the other ships away.

 

[Markonian]

The Texas class is coming to STO!
Lore wise, Starfleet has converted the unpiloted craft into a crewed vessel. As a miracle worker escort of the 25th century, the Texas class is meant to represent artificial life citizens of the Federation and their civil rights struggle.

In 2411, the class is represented by a ship called USS Aledo NA-01.

Link: https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/11538283-take-over-the-texas-class!



My hope is that the ship can be uploaded to GamePrint. I need a model of the Texas class. I like that it has a unique registry prefix. Suitable names include Amarillo, Austin, Houston and San Antonio.

If I can get one printed for myself, I’ll name it Amarillo. In a German novel series, people of Amarillo survive for centuries by replacing their organic parts with plysterox-based robot parts.

EDIT: On Reddit, u/Red Sagittarius pointed out that the Texas class resembles the Strider-class scout from ST: Legacy. A coincidence but that’s so cool! Photo link: https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/USS_Franklin_(NCC-246)?file=Strider_class_aft.jpg

 

[Markonian]

The Texas class in STO cannot use the NA registry prefix. Cannot be uploaded to GamePrint either, so we cannot have a model! Boo!

 

[Deks]

I like the TMP era designs as well. I just find it unbelievable that (according to the showrunner), Starfleet all of a sudden decided that they need their new exploration ships to look like ships from a century+ before. The look of the ship should have zero bearing on its mission.

This.
I don't mind SF using pre-existing ships that have been in service for a long time but upgraded to keep up with the times (but even those ships will receive overall hull geometry changes to keep them on track)... but going back 100+ years on the overall design aspect for completely new/modern ships makes no sense, especially when the late 24th century featured an evolution of 23rd century into more streamlined curves, etc.

The 25th century brought back more hard lines to the designs, and I'm not very fond of that.

For the Intrepid we saw in the episode prior to the last... the secondary hull looks good, but the saucer and other bits (like the nacelles) are very 23rd century like.

I don't particularly like the 25th century nacelles or overall design aesthetic... too blocky and just don't compliment the ships that well if you ask me.

EDIT: Upon another look, the Intrepid's saucer actually looks ok. Its the nacelles that are the problem for me.
I think they are too blocky and narrow.