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Spoilers ST Lower Decks - Starships and Technology Season One Discusssion

Gravitons don't work that way.
Gravitons are still only hypothetical, so, assigning any physical properties to them is mythical. In any event, per Wiki, the graviton is called "an elementary particle that mediates the force of gravity", so, if it is a particle, then why can't treknobabble capture them? Sounds easier than capturing a photon. :vulcan:

Instead of capturing gravitons, the ceiling plating generated the gravitons (like we can generate electrons), they accelerate to the opposite floor plating where they are stopped/absorbed/deleted. This gives uniform gravity on each deck between ceiling and floor, but it does not extend to any other area either above or below, hence, the outside hull of the ship at zero g (or whatever the external conditions are at the time.) Opposing gravity plates (+ and -) are key to stopping gravity from extending past the ceiling and floor.
 
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@Christopher
So you go from lets say Zero to 1/4 light speed in say 4 seconds? IMAGINE the acelleration G's!! Probably like 2 Million G's!!
But still to my point, there is still acceleration involved in trek, standard orbit isn't a stable orbit, and especially if the ship is in a low geostationary orbit over a particular spot. and the Mega G's of leaving orbit. I understand that say in deep space, there just coasting,and the deck plates just have to just produce 1 G or so. The problem with Inertia and how they cancel it is still a problem.
 
Opposing gravity plates (+ and -) are key to stopping gravity from extending past the ceiling and floor.

...Or then the Trek style of gravity peters out more quickly than as the square of distance, and thus is essentially dead as a dodo when reaching the ceiling. This would help with facilities that have no ceiling anywhere near, or have weird geometries, such as the shuttlebays (where things should benefit from feeling no gravity a certain distance above the floor, and indeed are seen floating in, say, TMP). Or with the fact that people can be toppled over by collisions or weapons hits, but tabletop glassware never as much as shifts, let alone shatters: the tabletop might have gravity, or then the floor gravity reaches that high but no higher, and the CoG of the typical Starfleet officer is already too high for the gravity to get a proper hold of. Also accounts for bodies flying across rooms from punches or kicks, without yet getting pulped...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Gravitons are still only hypothetical, so, assigning any physical properties to them is mythical.

That's not how science works either. It's not "myth," it's the prediction of a theory formulated to explain known facts. In order for a predicted particle to be consistent with the facts we have, it must behave in a certain way, and must not behave in any way that would contradict those facts. For instance, if a particle's mass were above a certain level, we would've seen evidence of it by now, so we know it must be less massive than that if it exists. (Indeed, recent investigations of whether gravitons could have mass have ruled out anything above an extremely tiny mass.) So even if we haven't confirmed a particle's existence, that doesn't make its properties a crapshoot. We can narrow in very precisely on what range of properties it could have if it existed.

It's the same as if you didn't see a murder being committed but can reconstruct the details of how it had to happen based on the physical evidence at the scene. The blood spatter pattern tells you the shot had to be fired from a certain position, by a shooter between 5' and 5'3". The victim's position tells you they were facing the shooter rather than fleeing, and there's no sign of forced entry, so you know they knew and trusted the killer. There are burned-down candles and champagne glasses on the table. The striations on the bullet tell you it was fired from a type of small revolver designed to be carried in a woman's purse. And so on. So you don't know exactly who the killer is, but you can rule out all the suspects and scenarios that don't fit the facts you have. If you say the killer was a woman that the victim was seeing romantically, that's not a "myth," and it's not on an equal footing with the theory that the killer was a 7-foot shotgun-wielding burglar who broke in by force. You don't know exactly who the killer is, but you can absolutely say who it can't possibly be. That's how you arrive at a theory of the case in the first place, by ruling out what doesn't fit the facts and narrowing in on what's left. And physics works the same way.


In any event, per Wiki, the graviton is called "an elementary particle that mediates the force of gravity", so, if it is a particle, then why can't treknobabble capture them? Sounds easier than capturing a photon. :vulcan:

Not all particles are alike. There are two different categories, fermions and bosons, that behave differently. Fermions are what we usually think of as "matter" particles, things like protons and electrons, while bosons are things like photons and force exchange particles that behave like what we think of as "energy," in that they can pass through each other without interference, be emitted out of fermions or absorbed into them, etc. Two fermions can't exist in the same place/state at the same time, so they're "solid" -- they just bump into each other and can't get any closer, so to speak. But any number of bosons can overlap in the same state, so they're "intangible" and mutually indistinguishable. (In some special cases you can make fermions behave like bosons -- a Bose-Einstein condensate -- but they have to be incredibly cold and the conditions have to be exactly right, and it generally doesn't persist for long.)

Indeed, when you see light through a pane of glass, the photons that reach your eyes are not the same ones the light source emitted. The particles of the glass (and the intervening air) absorbed the original photons and emitted identical ones. But because the distinction between bosons is irrelevant, unlike the difference between fermions, they can be treated as a single continuous beam of light. They're ephemeral in a way that fermionic particles like electrons and protons are not.

The word "particle" or the word "wave" is only an analogy for subatomic objects that have properties similar to both. When we say "particle," we're thinking of something like a grain of sand, and when we say "wave," we're thinking of something like a ripple in water. Something like a proton or a graviton has aspects of both, but a proton is closer to the "particle" side and a graviton is closer to the "wave" side. It's generally more useful to think of electromagnetism and gravity as waves in the energy fields that pervade the universe. Really, all particles can be considered defects or discontinuities in those fields, but fermions are more persistent defects.

To be more specific, things like photons and gravitons are force exchange particles. Their "job," as it were, is to transfer energy between other particles. So you don't "store photons," you absorb the energy they transmit, whether as stored electrical charge or as heat or whatever. The photon ceases to exist once it's delivered its energy to the fermion that absorbs it. And gravitons presumably do the same once they've delivered their gravitational energy. They're like power-up or health-boosting objects in a video game, in that they vanish once you've absorbed them, rather than being stored in your backpack or whatever for later use. They aren't retained, only their energy is.
 
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...Of course all this is irrelevant if Trek's gravitons are different from ours. And why wouldn't they be? "Graviton" is just a name, something one can slap to any arbitrary phenomenon. And Trek's arbitrary phenomena are different from ours - it's a fairyland where warp drive is possible, unlike ours, after all.

Mixing Trek and science is a mistake in any case. Science is dull and stupid (and based on not just admitting to stupidity, but reveling in it, so that things can move forward). Trek is entertainment. If one inserts science, one is bound to insert outdated science, what with the science we know being from several centuries before Trek - and boy do the characters look idiotic if they find 2020s scientific findings fascinating! If one inserts fairy tales, at least one can pretend to stay current and relevant.

Timo Saloniemi
 
My "in any event" was a concession that gravitons might not be captured rather they could be created. Thanks @Christopher for the current science info on gravity. I adjusted the idea that a gravity field is created via gravitons (or gravity waves) flowing between two opposing plates in an effort to explain an uniform gravity on a deck, and why the gravity effects are not transferred beyond the floor or ceiling of a deck. Petering-out-gravity with a gradient from floor to ceiling sounds "uncomfortable" to me, @Timo. :barf:
 
Well, it does take a special breed to join Starfleet.

And perhaps the "no running in corridors, even during Armageddon emergencies" rule is in place because lifting your foot from the deck carries grave consequences?

In any case, feeling lightheaded might be considered a perk.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I adjusted the idea that a gravity field is created via gravitons (or gravity waves) flowing between two opposing plates in an effort to explain an uniform gravity on a deck, and why the gravity effects are not transferred beyond the floor or ceiling of a deck.

I suppose that could make sense, that it's a field generated within the space between the two plates. In which case you're probably better off not worrying about gravitons and just talking about it as a field. I only brought up virtual gravitons in my novelverse explanation to account for its short range by assuming rapid graviton decay. If the short range is accounted for by being contained between the emitters, there's no need to look at it on the quantum level and we're better off approaching it classically as an acceleration.

I'm reminded of the artificial gravity mechanism I used in my Analog story "Hubpoint of No Return," which was inspired by this paper about a homopolar gravity generator, using the frame-dragging effect of a ring of dense rotating masses to create a perpendicular gravitomagnetic pull inside the ring, analogously to how an electric current passing through a ring creates a magnetic acceleration. It's basically the same idea as the Forward catapult discussed here, only instead of using it as a launcher/accelerator, you turn it on its side and use it to create gravity in the disc-shaped volume inside it (so it becomes a Downward catapult instead, as my story's protagonist put it). Like this image flipped upside-down, and with a floor so you don't just fall out of the ring.
 
It's basically the same idea as the Forward catapult discussed here, only instead of using it as a launcher/accelerator, you turn it on its side and use it to create gravity in the disc-shaped volume inside it (so it becomes a Downward catapult instead, as my story's protagonist put it). Like this image flipped upside-down, and with a floor so you don't just fall out of the ring.
Maybe this is why the saucer shape for the living and working habitats won out over other primary hull shapes. :)
 
Maybe this is why the saucer shape for the living and working habitats won out over other primary hull shapes. :)

Cute, but then every ship would have to be a flying saucer. Or a Vulcan-style ringship with gravity toward the rear. I'm not sure how far the gravitomagnetic field extends above and below the coil, though. You might need multiple rings along the length of the ship.
 
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The most unusual Starfleet ship ever?
And what kind of tunnel does it fly through?


And next week: Some kind of ship museum or store?

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Division 14 ships‘ atmospheric processors emit a disinfectant red mist with a hint of brimstone.
 
Dropping in quickly to post:

USS Osler, NX-75300 - Apparently named for Canadian Dr. William Osler, one of the founding members of Johns Hopkins.

USS Rubidoux, NCC-12109 - Apparently named for a suburb of the City of Jurupa Valley. Also, this show's first NCC facepalm!

There's also the USS Oakland, which seems implied to be another California-class ship.

Mark
 
USS Osler, NX-75300 - Apparently named for Canadian Dr. William Osler, one of the founding members of Johns Hopkins.

Wikipedia says there's a town in Saskatchewan by that name, which would fit the overall pattern.

The fact that virtually every ship in this show, regardless of class, is named for a North American city raises all sorts of plausibility issues. As well as compounding the general Starfleet ethnocentrism of naming almost everything after Earth/human precedents when there are 150-plus other member worlds to choose from.
 
True, but then again I'm still smarting from the evidence in DSC showing a disproportionate emphasis on naming ships of that era after 20th-century American aviators.

I'm happy giving LDS a pass on this one for now, as at least three of the ships are from the same class after all, and naming them in the spirit of how they named Danube-class runabouts tracks well enough for me.

Mark
 
Which is possible, considering the circular hull, which was more common in the Ambassador era. In fact, once the oval designs of the Galaxy/Nebula generation started moving in, along with her contemporaries seen at Wolf 359, and the long oval and arrowhead designs of the Sovereign, Intrepid, Prometheus, etc., I don't think we ever saw a circular primary hull again, other than the already-established 23rd century designs and their kitbashed derivations seen during the Dominion War (Excelsiors, Mirandas, Centaurs, Currys, etc.). These may be the last generation of circular-hulled designs.
 
Not if the California Class is a contemporary of the Ambassador Class.

Which is possible, considering the circular hull, which was more common in the Ambassador era. In fact, once the oval designs of the Galaxy/Nebula generation started moving in, along with her contemporaries seen at Wolf 359, and the long oval and arrowhead designs of the Sovereign, Intrepid, Prometheus, etc., I don't think we ever saw a circular primary hull again, other than the already-established 23rd century designs and their kitbashed derivations seen during the Dominion War (Excelsiors, Mirandas, Centaurs, Currys, etc.). These may be the last generation of circular-hulled designs.

My pet theory is also that the California class is contemporary with the Ambassador class, although it also shares things in common with the much-later Parliament class (most notably, the flat bridge dome and bridge window.) But because the registries are all over the place (anywhere between 1XXXX and 8XXXX so far), I'm having a sneaky suspicion that the creators of this show really don't care about chronological registries, and I'm almost certain that at some point we'll get a California with a registry of NCC-2150 or so, which will really annoy me. They've already mentioned that the class has been around 'forever,' but I didn't think they were speaking literally. Having a TNG-era design built during the TMP-movie era would just be straining credibility to the extreme.
 
This is basically a repeat of the Niagara class: an "actual" ship with a high registry and TNG components, and then a "paper" ship that suddenly happens to have a much lower registry. But that was the doing of Okuda&Sternbach, who did think in terms of chronological registries. Might have been a lapse or fluke or whatnot, rather than an intended thing. But the "actual" ship did have an Ambassador hull and deserved to be connected to that somehow.

So we aren't too badly off yet, and indeed I'm visualizing the "original" engine configuration of the California right now, as well as other nerdy stuff such as "original" shorter phasers and whatnot. But it's pretty clear that the show will keep on bringing further California class vessels to the forefront, for the obvious reasons of the detailed ship existing in the archives, the heroes being all about competition and comparison with their closest fate-mates, and the stories being about the stuff the Californias specifically do. So my hopes aren't all that high up as regards avoiding bruising from future registry facepalms.

Timo Saloniemi
 
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