Spock's Rank?

[Captain Robert April]

That might also help to reconcile Mendez's "about your age" line. No way could he be a twenty-something Captain (O-6), but a Lieutenant (O-3) or a really bright Lt. Commander (O-4) is not unreasonable.

Either way, he'd still be addressed by everyone as "Captain".

 

[Timo]

OTOH, Mendez' clipped phrases could just as well refer to how Pike had been in his glory days (captain of a starship at roughly the same age Kirk is now holding), not how he currently was.

But "The Cage" does suggest that Pike is inexperienced. He's buried in self-doubt, but apparently not because of accumulating hardships - instead, he appears to have suffered his very first setback, his very first casualties, and is withdrawing in humiliation where more experienced folks (that is, officers who have already screwed up sufficiently many times) would go on fighting. It's not for nothing that Dr Boyce ridicules his idea of seeking retirement at that point!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[J.T.B.]

Pike's ship had only 200 people on board. The Captain (Pike) could well have been only a Lieutenant by rank.

Certainly a possibility, but very much contrary to real world practice, and Starfleet's so far as we've seen. Today a nuclear attack submarine with ~130 complement has a full commander for a CO. If we go back to WW2, lieutenant commander was the normal rank for a fleet submarine CO (~80 complement), with lieutenants commanding old S-class boats of 40 men. Even if you go back to the Horatio Hormblower days, a sloop with ~120 crew rated a commander.

As far as Trek, it seems that everything Starfleet has going gets a full captain, including NX-01, with about 85 total crew. Nor, AFAIK, have we seen a Starfleet vessel with captain and second-in-command of the same rank.

--Justin

 

[Chaos Descending]

Yes, that's true, but as I am constantly reminded by others, Starfleet is not the modern US Navy.

Besides, if we're actively trying to retcon Spock's rank, Kirk's rank, and Pike's rank based on sleeve stripes, I don't think TNG/VOY/DS9/ENT have much to teach us.

 

[J.T.B.]

Yes, that's true, but as I am constantly reminded by others, Starfleet is not the modern US Navy.

Agreed, it's just a little hard to for me to believe a major vessel like that would be commanded by a junior officer, or, with a rank structure so similar to those of the r/w, that commanding a Starship is a lower-grade post than a nuclear sub today. Also, Pike introduces himself as "Captain Christopher Pike" to the Columbia survivors in "The Cage," when you might expect to give his official rank, and "Captain Christopher Pike" is noted as the commanding officer of Enterprise in official proceeding in "The Menagerie." It's just easier for me to swallow that the stripes on the pilot ep uniforms do not mean the same as they do later.

Besides, if we're actively trying to retcon Spock's rank, Kirk's rank, and Pike's rank based on sleeve stripes, I don't think TNG/VOY/DS9/ENT have much to teach us.

Or the rest of TOS and TOS movies? It's just that it appears Starfleet policy is decidedly on the side of having its vessels commanded by senior-grade officers, and has been for some time.

--Justin

 

[Captain Robert April]

Talos IV could be the incident that resulted in the mandate that only senior grade officers got command of starships. Prior to that, it's not unreasonable that promising Lt. Commanders on the verge of getting that second stripe got command of starships. After all, it's just one slot below the standard grade for that position, which is not unheard of in today's military.

 

[CaptainStoner]

I wasn't aware of Spock having any particularly offensive odor.

 

[Chaos Descending]

Yes, that's true, but as I am constantly reminded by others, Starfleet is not the modern US Navy.

Agreed, it's just a little hard to for me to believe a major vessel like that would be commanded by a junior officer, or, with a rank structure so similar to those of the r/w, that commanding a Starship is a lower-grade post than a nuclear sub today. Also, Pike introduces himself as "Captain Christopher Pike" to the Columbia survivors in "The Cage," when you might expect to give his official rank, and "Captain Christopher Pike" is noted as the commanding officer of Enterprise in official proceeding in "The Menagerie." It's just easier for me to swallow that the stripes on the pilot ep uniforms do not mean the same as they do later.

Besides, if we're actively trying to retcon Spock's rank, Kirk's rank, and Pike's rank based on sleeve stripes, I don't think TNG/VOY/DS9/ENT have much to teach us.

Or the rest of TOS and TOS movies? It's just that it appears Starfleet policy is decidedly on the side of having its vessels commanded by senior-grade officers, and has been for some time.

--Justin

Honestly, I agree with YOU, personally, but the spirit of this thread has kinda gone a different direction. I'm just kind of trying to shoe-horn the visuals into something comprehensible. I know, probably a fool's errand, but it's still sorta fun.

 

[siskokid888]

Trek writers (and fans to a degree) have seemingly never fully grasped the difference between the naval RANK of captain and the naval POSITION of captain, a point made on this board numerous times. To further show this, the one person in the Trek saga that should have absolutley had the flag officer rank of captain was Benjamin Sisko, and they had him as a commander, to start! As a base commander, starfleet ships in the area would report to him and he would be in charge of local operations, and so should have been at least a captain from the get go. TOS got this right at least, as starbase commanders had the rank of commodore.

 

[siskokid888]

I wasn't aware of Spock having any particularly offensive odor.

you get one internets point today

 

[Chaos Descending]

the flag officer rank of captain

Error #1: "Captain" is not a "flag rank". "Flag ranks" are the Admiral ranks. Rear Admiral (Lower half and upper half), Vice Admiral, Admiral, Fleet Admiral. Probably Commodore is also a "flag rank".

As a base commander, starfleet ships in the area would report to him and he would be in charge of local operations

Error #2: Base commanders have no authority over anything other than their base.

 

[siskokid888]

^I'll give you the point of Captains not being flag officers in the modern navy - they were at one time, but now rear admiral lower half (or commodore) seems to be the lowest flag rank. However, a base commander is (or can be) responsible for operations in the bases' sector and lower ranking ship commanders can be responsible, and often are responsible, to report to the area base commander.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

Nor, AFAIK, have we seen a Starfleet vessel with captain and second-in-command of the same rank.

The Enterprise 1701-A had a CO and XO who were both Catains by rank.

 

[Chaos Descending]

^I'll give you the point of Captains not being flag officers in the modern navy - they were at one time, but now rear admiral lower half (or commodore) seems to be the lowest flag rank. However, a base commander is (or can be) responsible for operations in the bases' sector and lower ranking ship commanders can be responsible, and often are responsible, to report to the area base commander.

Captain has never been a flag rank. At least, not as I've ever been able to determine. The US Navy in the mid-1800's did used to promote certain senior captains to the rank of "Flag Officer", but that was because the US Navy did not have any Admiral ranks at all! The rank of Captain on its own was certainly never considered to be a flag rank per se.

Also, where do you get the idea that base commanders are somehow responsible for ships in their area? That's certainly not true in the "real" Navy.

 

[J.T.B.]

^I'll give you the point of Captains not being flag officers in the modern navy - they were at one time, but now rear admiral lower half (or commodore) seems to be the lowest flag rank.

No, not in any navy that I'm aware of. "Flag officer" refers to the flag an admiral would fly on his flagship so the other ships would know whose signals to obey. A ship with no officer higher than her captain aboard flies a long, narrow commission pennant, not, technically, a "flag" in naval terminology, which implies a rectangular or square shape.

A commodore traditionally flies a "broad pennant," which is tapered and forked at the end and also not technically a "flag." The US Navy considered the rank of commodore (not the position) to be flag-grade, but in the British Royal Navy "flag rank" has always started at rear admiral.

Nor, AFAIK, have we seen a Starfleet vessel with captain and second-in-command of the same rank.

The Enterprise 1701-A had a CO and XO who were both Catains by rank.

Yep, you're right.

--Justin

 

[PsychoPere]

Nor, AFAIK, have we seen a Starfleet vessel with captain and second-in-command of the same rank.

The Enterprise 1701-A had a CO and XO who were both Catains by rank.

Yep, you're right.

Not to mention a Chief Engineer who was also a Captain.

 

[Chaos Descending]

Pretty top heavy for a ship of 430 personnel.

My ship had a Captain as CO, Captain as XO, Captain in charge of the Air Wing, Captain as Reactor Officer (closest thing to Scotty a carrier has), Captain as Senior Medical Officer... but jeez, it had a crew (with embarked Air Wing) of 5,500!

 

[CoveTom]

Pretty top heavy for a ship of 430 personnel.

Very true, but pretty much the only way they could play it in Trek's case. They wanted to keep our heroes together, and we were supposed to believe they were the best of the best. If they were, they wouldn't stagnate at one rank for their careers. So by the time of the later movies, you would naturally end up with several of them holding captain or higher rank. In fact, by TUC, we had four of the core seven holding captain rank.

 

[Chaos Descending]

This is part of the reason why I wish that the Star Trek "mythos" had gone the way they inteded with Star Trek Phase II -> Replace Kirk with Decker and Spock with Xon. Have Kirk be a recurring Admiral that Decker answers to from time to time, etc. Let the series be a little more dynamic.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I like to think Starfleet made the Enterprise-A's commmand crew a special case--keep all them troublemakers on one ship.