Spock's Rank?
- Thread starter cblmc1296
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I'm not sure I indicated that there should only be 1 person aboard with the rank of Commander. If I did, it wasn't intentional. My reference to Giotto was instead meant to point out another instance where a character is addressed out loud as "Lieutenant Commander" but wears braids indicating full Commander's rank.
The biggest reason I think that production oversights are most likely is that in-universe, we never hear anything about a field promotion for Spock, nor is it ever indicated that frocking is practiced in Starfleet. Of course, we can assume anything we want in those regards but it just seems most likely that in the early days of Trek production there were so many other details to get right, that accurate depiction of military rank was sometimes overlooked.
That's a good point. I suppose it's entirely possible that it found its way into a script here or there and was, possibly, even shot and then left on the cutting room floor because it didn't add anything to the story. The Corbomite Maneuver comes to mind - it was stated in that episode that Kirk promoted Bailey. Who knows?
It's also almost deceptively easy to see reason in "frockin' Spock". We have the disastrous first adventure where top officers get killed, then further adventures that indicate that the ship remains far from home and is perhaps limping at the limits of her endurance - short on dilithium crystals and Commanders. Giotto is another prime example of promotion through attrition, given his dangerous profession and his lack of previous appearances.
It's not an entirely smooth ride, though. As we know, Spock gets called LtCmdr twice - once at his return to the civilized world of Starfleet bureaucracy in "Court Martial", which is nicely in accordance with the frocking theory, and then 150 stardates later in "Tomorrow is Yesterday", which is not. At that latter date, Spock should already have been through the bureaucratic grinder. Several times, in fact, considering that "The Menagerie" also took place in between.
Timo Saloniemi
It's not an entirely smooth ride, though. As we know, Spock gets called LtCmdr twice - once at his return to the civilized world of Starfleet bureaucracy in "Court Martial", which is nicely in accordance with the frocking theory, and then 150 stardates later in "Tomorrow is Yesterday", which is not. At that latter date, Spock should already have been through the bureaucratic grinder. Several times, in fact, considering that "The Menagerie" also took place in between.
Timo Saloniemi
I could maybe go along with that if "The Menagerie" had never been made, but it's pretty hard to disavow the pilots with that out there.
I wouldn't say "frocking" is quite adequate. I could see a "frocked Spock" being sworn in with his official rank in "Court Martial," and maybe in the log entry in "The Menagerie." But why would Kirk introduce him to Capt. Christopher as "lieutenant commander" if Spock had been given an acting promotion? Referring to him by the lower title would tend to under-cut the reason for giving him higher authority in the first place. And if Giotto was a similar case, why wouldn't Kirk call him simply "commander?" And why would Finney, with the infamous black mark on his record, be bumped up to full commander to serve as records officer, while the ship's chief engineer and apparent third-in-command is only a LCDR?
It's too much of a stretch. Better to just chalk it up to early production errors and pretend that Spock was always a commander and Finney and Giotto always wore LCDR stripes.
Just to clarify a few terms that tend to come up in these discussions:
- Frocking: A "head start" on a promotion that has already been approved by top-level authority but is not yet effective. Allows a person the insignia and authority of the higher grade but not the pay.
- Acting promotion: A promotion by local authority, generally to fill a vacancy. May or may not be confirmed at the top level later on.
- Temporary promotion: A promotion by top-level authority for a limited time, either for a specific assignment or to fill expanded units in wartime.
- Brevet promotion: A promotion given as an honor for valiant or outstanding service, but with little or no real authority. Died out by the 20th century.
Also, despite what you read, frocking dates only to around 1970. You will not find the term used in the days of sailing ships, that is just a colorful "origin story" made up by someone. Acting promotions were common in the days of sail, however.
--Justin
"Tomorrow is Yesterday" is near-impossible to explain away, unless we assume Kirk was having a momentary lapse of concentration due to the trauma of time travel.
But "Devil in the Dark" isn't that difficult to fit into the picture, because Kirk could more easily fail to remember the recent promotion of an officer he doesn't daily interact with. He already had something like five interchangeable Barry Russo characters to keep track on; Security personnel came and went (and sometimes came again), unlike Spock who sat right next to Kirk for most of the day, most of the days.
In "Court Martial", the Records Officer appeared to be a top computer operator, by skill and access. Kirk apparently equaled him in access, while Spock most probably also enjoyed an advantage in skill. But it wouldn't be difficult to assume that Spock's promotion to combined XO and SO status would necessitate taking some computer-related burden off him and giving it to another guy, in this case Finney. The two acting promotions would be related, then.
And it would be a nice dramatic point if Kirk actually recently personally promoted the guy who hated him enough to frame him for murder...
Timo Saloniemi
If it was an acting promotion or a frocking, Kirk would have been involved with approving it. And how could Kirk not frequently interact with one of his department heads? If there are only a handful of full commanders aboard, acting or permanent, Kirk should be able to remember who they are, plus the stripes are there as a reminder. It is quite a slight for a commanding officer to call someone by a lower grade title, Kirk does not seem the type who would allow himself to do that to one of his top officers.
Why would Spock being promoted to CDR as XO have any bearing on Finney's rank? As I said, if LCDR is sufficient for third-in-command it is hard to imagine a reason for a higher-ranking records officer, no matter his level of access, as records officer is apparently pretty non-essential (we never hear of one again, do we?
). And it still wouldn't explain why they always call him "lieutenant commander."It doesn't add up, it's easier to recognize the errors for what they are and move on.
--Justin
But Kirk doesn't actually directly interact with Giotto. First, he orders one of his officers to summon the security chief for him; next, he speaks with Giotto over a comm line. He never gets to look at the sleeve stripes when delivering his "lieutenant commander" lines.
Kirk could well have approved Giotto's promotion to the rank held by his late predecessor simply by signing one of those PADD things his yeomen kept bringing him, and not thought much about it. In the show, (chief) security officers come and go, and Kirk very seldom exchanges even a few words with them. Some department heads are more important to him than others.
...records officer is apparently pretty non-essential (we never hear of one again, do we?
Might be proof positive that he's absolutely vital.
Really, the Computer Guy must be one of the most important people aboard a starship, probably at least as important as the Engine Guy and quite possibly more so. A typical starship could well have the Computer Guy be among the highest-ranking officers, even if he were a staff officer like the Chief Sawbones and not a command-line guy like Finney appeared to be. A typical starship wouldn't have a Vulcan for XO, though - and Starfleet (and Kirk!) might only grudgingly have approved Spock's taking on of double or triple duty as the combined XO and Computer Guy.
We don't have a clear picture of what is "sufficient" for each position, but it appears that Chief Medical Officers can get just about any rank, and that their competence and experience may amount to so many promotions that they eventually outrank most of the major players (say, the CMO of the early Enterprise or the Voyager would rival the XO). It wouldn't be a chain of command thing at all, but a matter of expertise in one's field of specialty: Finney could have accumulated his brownie points by being a good Computer Guy, but (like supposedly McCoy) wouldn't be able to use them to wrestle command from Spock or Kirk.
For the same reason Spock in that episode gets called that: because the rank hasn't gotten through in official writing yet, as the court proceedings are delaying the bureaucracy.
Spock in "Court Martial" gets called by the lower rank in a highly formal context: the court computer addresses him as such. Finney gets an almost equally official and officious treatment: his lower rank is used by Stone, Shaw and Cogley in court proceedings. When Kirk (once) uses this rank in describing Finney, it's only in keeping with what his superiors are doing around him. The issue of addressing Finney by rank at his face doesn't arise, for obvious reasons!
Both Spock and Finney would appear to be long-term members of Kirk's team, veterans of "Where No Man". Both may well have been subject to the reshuffling that resulted from Mitchell's death. And their promotions may well be connected through the Computer Guy aspect.
An obvious alternate explanation offers itself, of course: Finney faked his death by retreating into an apparently pre-stocked hideout where he could remain hidden for an extended length of time. For survival, he would need food and water; for comfort, he would need a change of clothes. It's quite possible that the uniform he was wearing when found was not his, but rather something he had stolen in preparation for his dastardly deed! It would be suspicious if records revealed him hoarding extra uniform shirts from the ship's stores, but less so if he stole a garment here, another there, from people unconnected to him.
We keep on seeing high-ranking officers other than the usual bridge posse throughout TOS. Apparently, a "tactical officer" may be in the LtCmdr/Cmdr category, as per "Arena" and later "Let That Be" (where a nameless yellowshirt of high rank is seen). There might well have been a yellowshirt full Commander in Kirk's crew during "Court Martial", a practical source of supplies for Finney as he'd probably interact more with fellow top officers than with the lower decks folks.
Timo Saloniemi
yes i watched a couple of episodes yesterday from season one and was confused about spocks rank. looked at his braids & then mccoys & scottys. i always thought he was a lt cmmdr. i shall asumme its due to different script writers not knowing the characterss etc. either that or spock was a naughty vulcan at some point
Not even close. Brevetting would enabled a officer to hold a higher rank temporarily, for a special purpose. During the time period that they held that temporary rank, the officer would have the full authority of that rank.
While it became less common in the twentieth century during peacetime, it hardly "died out." The practice would become common again during both the first and second world wars.
There have been brevetments (sp?) in the USAF as recently as 2005.
In US service, the President could order an officer to an assignment in his brevet rank, but that was uncommon. The vast majority of the time, brevets were purely honorary. That was the whole point: A gallant young officer could be given a nice-sounding promotion in rank, without upsetting his whole regiment when he suddenly outranks a bunch of older officers. The whole function of rewarding outstanding service is now much better filled by a system of decorations, which, with the exception of the Medal of Honor, date from the 20th century. In fact, the USMC created a decoration to recognize its small number of brevet officers.
Temporary rank and brevet rank are not the same thing, but the terminology is often confused. That's what I was trying to point out above. Here is an e-book with about everything you could want to know on the brevet ranks up through the end of the 19th century:
http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924030743110
There may have been a few exceptions in WW1, but by WW2 it was gone. US Army officers in WW2 were given temporary rank in the wartime Army of the United States.
I would be very interested in the details, as I'm pretty sure the federal authority for conferring brevet rank no longer exists.
--Justin
^ The incident referred to in 2005 was frocking, not brevetting. Although the waters are muddied somewhat if you read sources like Wikipedia, because they treat brevetting and frocking as basically the same thing and use the terms interchangeably, even though they are quite different.
Thanks, CoveTom. I wonder if Robert Heinlein is responsible for muddying this issue somewhat among SF fans? IIRC in his popular book Starship Troopers "brevet" was used for battlefield promotions. Maybe readers assume that reflected real life, rather than fiction.
--Justin
Heinlain's Space Cadet stories were an influence on Roddenberry, so there's that...
Yeah, Space Cadet does go on at some length about how there are only officers in the "Interplanetary Patrol," probably a major influence on GR's statement that there were no enlisted personnel in Starfleet (even though there were on the show).
--Justin
We know two things for sure from Where No Man...:
* Spock is identified as 'science officer' by Kirk.
* Only two people have the 'star' symbol on their insignia patches, Kirk and Spock. They also both are wearing the same color tunics.
Now we see Spock stay behind after the staff meeting and consult with Kirk about an appropriate course of action, suggesting they either maroon or kill Mitchell.
I use to think that it was Mitchell who was XO in the episode, but after reviewing it lately I've changed my mind.
There is a theory that Kirk was still just the rank of commander in WNMHGB as he just had the 2 gold stripes on his sleeve, his promotion to rank of captain (he already had the position of ship's captain) came after. That would make sense in the context of Spock being a lt. commander, later promoted as well.
...And in face of other evidence, it would make sense for the rank stripes in the two TOS pilots to be identical in meaning to the rank stripes in the regular eps. After all, the stripes that precede them in the in-universe timeline (that is, JJ Abrams' movie and then ENT when it finally gets around to showing cuff markings) appear to subscribe to the same regular-ep logic.
It's just that in "Where No Man", a single stripe is identified with the LtCmdr rather than Lt rank, casting some doubt on whether the young Kirk really would be a Commander. (That is, unless Gary Mitchell were one of those officers whose cuff markings didn't match his current rank. But in this case Mitchell would be wearing less brass than dialogue indicates, while Spock, Finney and Giotto had the opposite problem.)
On the other hand, all the people with a single stripe in "The Cage" who are identified by rank are indeed identified as Lieutenants. But curiously enough, the skipper himself wears a single stripe, too. Even if that establishes him as a Lieutenant Commander rather than mere Lieutenant, it's a somewhat low rank for the CO of an important starship to hold.
Of course, nobody ever said that Pike's starship was particularly important...
Timo Saloniemi
It's just that in "Where No Man", a single stripe is identified with the LtCmdr rather than Lt rank, casting some doubt on whether the young Kirk really would be a Commander. (That is, unless Gary Mitchell were one of those officers whose cuff markings didn't match his current rank. But in this case Mitchell would be wearing less brass than dialogue indicates, while Spock, Finney and Giotto had the opposite problem.)
On the other hand, all the people with a single stripe in "The Cage" who are identified by rank are indeed identified as Lieutenants. But curiously enough, the skipper himself wears a single stripe, too. Even if that establishes him as a Lieutenant Commander rather than mere Lieutenant, it's a somewhat low rank for the CO of an important starship to hold.
Of course, nobody ever said that Pike's starship was particularly important...
Timo Saloniemi
Pike's ship had only 200 people on board. The Captain (Pike) could well have been only a Lieutenant by rank.
Kirk's ship was upgraded and needed 430 people on board, so it makes sense that a ship with double the crew would need a Captain by rank (Commander at first, but awaiting promotion to Captain) as commanding officer.
Kirk's ship was upgraded and needed 430 people on board, so it makes sense that a ship with double the crew would need a Captain by rank (Commander at first, but awaiting promotion to Captain) as commanding officer.
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