Re: Old Spock Being In A New Timeline
Thanks; clearly I have my own wishful-thinking universe...
Spock's Conscience/Should Spock warn _____ about ______?
- Thread starter Believer Bob
- Start date
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
Re: Old Spock Being In A New Timeline
OMG! I love this idea! every episode would be the crew tackling threats that future Spock has told them about.
THIS WOULD BE AN AWESOME NEW SERIES!
OMG! I love this idea! every episode would be the crew tackling threats that future Spock has told them about.
THIS WOULD BE AN AWESOME NEW SERIES!
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
Re: Old Spock Being In A New Timeline
Not before handing over a computer disc containing all knowledge of future events.
Not before handing over a computer disc containing all knowledge of future events.
Re: Old Spock Being In A New Timeline
Even the whale probe falls into this category. Sure, it might be relatively easy to clone some humpbacks from DNA stores. BUT - without adult humpbacks to learn from, would they know what they need to to satisfy the probe? If not, you'll need time-travelled humpbacks from the past again - and time travel is frequently a pain-in-the-rear. Okay, so you manage that - but now you just know Starfleet Command is still going to want to try to make peaceful contact with the thing while it's in Federation space, and even Spock Prime doesn't know exactly how to do that, because they never managed it in the original timeline.
True - and there's also the fact that some of those threats just aren't so easy to deal with even if you know how to defeat them.
Even the whale probe falls into this category. Sure, it might be relatively easy to clone some humpbacks from DNA stores. BUT - without adult humpbacks to learn from, would they know what they need to to satisfy the probe? If not, you'll need time-travelled humpbacks from the past again - and time travel is frequently a pain-in-the-rear. Okay, so you manage that - but now you just know Starfleet Command is still going to want to try to make peaceful contact with the thing while it's in Federation space, and even Spock Prime doesn't know exactly how to do that, because they never managed it in the original timeline.
Re: Old Spock Being In A New Timeline
I think Spock should e-mail the cure for the Augment virus to the Klingons, so they can get their ridges back before the sequel.
And he should also blow up the S.S. Botany Bay, to remove any temptation to include Khan in the next film ...
I think Spock should e-mail the cure for the Augment virus to the Klingons, so they can get their ridges back before the sequel.
And he should also blow up the S.S. Botany Bay, to remove any temptation to include Khan in the next film ...
Re: Old Spock Being In A New Timeline
Or, maybe Nero or one of his crew gave the Klingons (or someone) all sorts of information from history, and that party is going around collecting the ultimate Enterprise Rogue's Gallery to put against Kirk and co. at some point. And of course, Khan would be in that.
Everyone is so down on the idea that Khan would be in the next film, but I kinda like it, if it were done right. After all, Spock Prime knows that they wronged Khan in the original timeline, and maybe things would turn out differently, this time. I'd like to see a movie where Kirk and Khan end up going back-to-back, so to speak, against another threat.
Or, maybe Nero or one of his crew gave the Klingons (or someone) all sorts of information from history, and that party is going around collecting the ultimate Enterprise Rogue's Gallery to put against Kirk and co. at some point. And of course, Khan would be in that.
Re: Old Spock Being In A New Timeline
That's just about the only way I'd like to see a Khan story, since it would give us a twist.
I feel like any attempt to recapture the Kirk vs. Khan dynamic would fall flat: we've SEEN Kirk take on Khan, twice, and win. It'd have to be a REALLY good story to make it work. It'd have to be a better story than Space Seed and Wrath of Khan. It's possible, but unlikely.
I think there's room for a new villain and some exploration and a new threat in Star Trek (2012). Personally, I'd love to see a Kirk vs. Klingon strategic battle, over some sort of newly discovered planet.
Then again, we've seen that before, too, haven't we?
Ah well . . . back to Old Spock and rehashing old stories with new characters . . . it'd be a tough sell, since it would really only appeal to fans who both love the original series AND the new universe.
Some stories, though, could include people trying to find out WHY, all of the sudden, Tolos IV is off limits . . . even though no one has ever been there. "What, some Vulcan told the Federation higher ups that that planet should be off limits? What's teh conspiracy! We're going!"
Oh, and they could also give a call to the Squire of Gothos' parents, let them know he's planning of being a naughty little boy.
~ Ben
That's just about the only way I'd like to see a Khan story, since it would give us a twist.
I feel like any attempt to recapture the Kirk vs. Khan dynamic would fall flat: we've SEEN Kirk take on Khan, twice, and win. It'd have to be a REALLY good story to make it work. It'd have to be a better story than Space Seed and Wrath of Khan. It's possible, but unlikely.
I think there's room for a new villain and some exploration and a new threat in Star Trek (2012). Personally, I'd love to see a Kirk vs. Klingon strategic battle, over some sort of newly discovered planet.
Then again, we've seen that before, too, haven't we?
Ah well . . . back to Old Spock and rehashing old stories with new characters . . . it'd be a tough sell, since it would really only appeal to fans who both love the original series AND the new universe.
Some stories, though, could include people trying to find out WHY, all of the sudden, Tolos IV is off limits . . . even though no one has ever been there. "What, some Vulcan told the Federation higher ups that that planet should be off limits? What's teh conspiracy! We're going!"
Oh, and they could also give a call to the Squire of Gothos' parents, let them know he's planning of being a naughty little boy.
~ Ben
Re: Old Spock Being In A New Timeline
This thread just makes me believe that they should have killed Spock Prime before the end of the film.
Do we really want a series of sequels consisted of Old Spock saying "Hey guys, the planet killer is going to turn up next week, so you just need to pop shuttlecraft in its gob and blow it up, oh and remind me to tell you how to deal with that Space Amoeba you are going to bump into next month"
Old Spock needs to keep his vulcan mouth shut and not say anything to anyone. With luck he had the common sense to shield his knowledge of the future from Kirk during the mind meld. Otherwise it entirely defeats the point of the reboot. If they know exactly what threats are there, and how the Real Crew defeated them in the past, then where the feth is the tension?
This thread just makes me believe that they should have killed Spock Prime before the end of the film.
Do we really want a series of sequels consisted of Old Spock saying "Hey guys, the planet killer is going to turn up next week, so you just need to pop shuttlecraft in its gob and blow it up, oh and remind me to tell you how to deal with that Space Amoeba you are going to bump into next month"
Old Spock needs to keep his vulcan mouth shut and not say anything to anyone. With luck he had the common sense to shield his knowledge of the future from Kirk during the mind meld. Otherwise it entirely defeats the point of the reboot. If they know exactly what threats are there, and how the Real Crew defeated them in the past, then where the feth is the tension?
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
Re: Old Spock Being In A New Timeline
A series could focus on another ship and crew going off and sorting these threats but of course things don't always go to plan. Having another ship and crew doing this leaves the new Enterprise crew to boldly go elsewhere for a new set of adventures.
I mean what's stopping the Ent crew going down the same path on their 5 year mission? if we want to see new things the Ent needs to go a different route so the opportunity to have a new ship and crew deal with threats old spock mentions is there and could make excellent viewing.
A series could focus on another ship and crew going off and sorting these threats but of course things don't always go to plan. Having another ship and crew doing this leaves the new Enterprise crew to boldly go elsewhere for a new set of adventures.
I mean what's stopping the Ent crew going down the same path on their 5 year mission? if we want to see new things the Ent needs to go a different route so the opportunity to have a new ship and crew deal with threats old spock mentions is there and could make excellent viewing.
Re: Old Spock Being In A New Timeline
But they are not dealing with these threats, its Old Spock doing all the hard work for them. Having a solution provided for them right off the bat is worse than the constant saving the day through technobabble Voyager indulged in.
I'm not saying seeing a new or reimagined Crew dealing with the problems of TOS in any new film or series wouldnt be interesting, but they shouldnt rely on Old Spock to do the work for them.
If J.J goes with Khan, what credible threat could he possibly present if Old Spock tells them the Botany Bay is full of Genetic superfreaks who should be put in the brig (or Hoth) straight away? Surely a more enjoyable story would be the crew uncovering him and not knowing what to do about it?
Or like i said the Planet Killer. It was a threat because nothing the crew tried could hurt it until someone decided a suicide attempt was the way to go. If Old Spock tells them straight away, the Constellation crew wouldnt be lost, inhabited systems wouldnt be threatened, it would be boring.
For there to be tension there has to be a threat, Old Spock spouting off a list of bad things removes that threat entirely. He might as well just tell them how to make Transphasic torpedoes while he's at it.
But they are not dealing with these threats, its Old Spock doing all the hard work for them. Having a solution provided for them right off the bat is worse than the constant saving the day through technobabble Voyager indulged in.
I'm not saying seeing a new or reimagined Crew dealing with the problems of TOS in any new film or series wouldnt be interesting, but they shouldnt rely on Old Spock to do the work for them.
If J.J goes with Khan, what credible threat could he possibly present if Old Spock tells them the Botany Bay is full of Genetic superfreaks who should be put in the brig (or Hoth) straight away? Surely a more enjoyable story would be the crew uncovering him and not knowing what to do about it?
Or like i said the Planet Killer. It was a threat because nothing the crew tried could hurt it until someone decided a suicide attempt was the way to go. If Old Spock tells them straight away, the Constellation crew wouldnt be lost, inhabited systems wouldnt be threatened, it would be boring.
For there to be tension there has to be a threat, Old Spock spouting off a list of bad things removes that threat entirely. He might as well just tell them how to make Transphasic torpedoes while he's at it.
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
Re: Old Spock Being In A New Timeline
^ Like I said, you're assuming things go to plan, Spock isn't doing "the hard work" by simply putting some info on a computer disc and explaining how they solved it. Reading what Spock wrote and actually hunting down the planet killer to destroy it is a whole different ball game.
The new Ent and rebooted crew need new adventures not the same old adventures they had before, to have the Ent go a different route we can have a new ship and new crew deal with what old Spock has told them.
Old Spock doesn't even have to give the details of everything just main threats like the planet killer, the whale probe, the Dominion.
They are very real threats and infact old Spock has no idea if this time the Ent crew will know what to do or even succeed it was usually just pot luck. Old Spock should be wanting to make sure they are destroyed and dealt with.
At the end of the day to have more Trek films of the Ent they're going to have to go a different route therefore a new trek series not involving the Ent could be possible.
Keep the new Ent and it's rebooted crew on the movie screen and have something seperate for a series.
^ Like I said, you're assuming things go to plan, Spock isn't doing "the hard work" by simply putting some info on a computer disc and explaining how they solved it. Reading what Spock wrote and actually hunting down the planet killer to destroy it is a whole different ball game.
The new Ent and rebooted crew need new adventures not the same old adventures they had before, to have the Ent go a different route we can have a new ship and new crew deal with what old Spock has told them.
Old Spock doesn't even have to give the details of everything just main threats like the planet killer, the whale probe, the Dominion.
They are very real threats and infact old Spock has no idea if this time the Ent crew will know what to do or even succeed it was usually just pot luck. Old Spock should be wanting to make sure they are destroyed and dealt with.
At the end of the day to have more Trek films of the Ent they're going to have to go a different route therefore a new trek series not involving the Ent could be possible.
Keep the new Ent and it's rebooted crew on the movie screen and have something seperate for a series.
Re: Old Spock Being In A New Timeline
It provides too much of an advantage just knowing what to expect, and i think it would unnecessarily hinder any development of a new or Alternate crew. Any success would end up being attributed to the efforts of Old Spock, and any failures would obviously be the fault of the new crew not being as good as the Real Universe one. Either way the characters dont get to stand for themselves.
Its the same reason why Obi-wan had to disappear before the Star Wars novels could really get going. If you have an experienced Jedi around telling Luke how to deal with every bad situation then how can he be seen as the hero of the series? Old Spock is the Obi-wan of the new reality, he has to shut up or die.
I agree the new reality needs new adventures, but i cant see how dealing with the Bad List from Spock would be anything more than a retread of TOS, except with the crew knowing exactly what to expect and what to do.
It provides too much of an advantage just knowing what to expect, and i think it would unnecessarily hinder any development of a new or Alternate crew. Any success would end up being attributed to the efforts of Old Spock, and any failures would obviously be the fault of the new crew not being as good as the Real Universe one. Either way the characters dont get to stand for themselves.
Its the same reason why Obi-wan had to disappear before the Star Wars novels could really get going. If you have an experienced Jedi around telling Luke how to deal with every bad situation then how can he be seen as the hero of the series? Old Spock is the Obi-wan of the new reality, he has to shut up or die.
I agree the new reality needs new adventures, but i cant see how dealing with the Bad List from Spock would be anything more than a retread of TOS, except with the crew knowing exactly what to expect and what to do.
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
Re: Old Spock Being In A New Timeline
I'm being serious here now, are you getting confused with what I am saying?
This new series i'm talking about has NOTHING to do with the new Ent and the rebooted crew. I've said that clear as day.
Again, I am saying the Ent and rebooted crew stick to the big screen and go a different path to TOS, instead information from old Spock leads to a new ship and new crew setting off to take care of the threats old Spock speaks about.
Whilst trying to deal with these threats anything can happen and anything can go wrong and not according to plan.
Old Spock can be on his death bed and hands over a computer disc explaining about the threats and that's when he carks it and the Federation decides to send out a ship.
I'm being serious here now, are you getting confused with what I am saying?
This new series i'm talking about has NOTHING to do with the new Ent and the rebooted crew.
I've said that clear as day.Again, I am saying the Ent and rebooted crew stick to the big screen and go a different path to TOS, instead information from old Spock leads to a new ship and new crew setting off to take care of the threats old Spock speaks about.
Whilst trying to deal with these threats anything can happen and anything can go wrong and not according to plan.
Old Spock can be on his death bed and hands over a computer disc explaining about the threats and that's when he carks it and the Federation decides to send out a ship.
Re: Spock's Conscience
And i said new or Alternate crew, as in a either a New Crew on a new ship, or the new Kirk and co. And its irrelevant who the characters are, having Old Spock lead the way hinders their development.
Im all for a New ship with a New crew, even tackling the old crises of TOS, but they should do it on their own, with no handholding from Old Spock.
And anything may happen and go wrong, but who cares when you have the Uber experienced Spock on the other end of a Subspace channel to tell you what to do next.
And i said new or Alternate crew, as in a either a New Crew on a new ship, or the new Kirk and co. And its irrelevant who the characters are, having Old Spock lead the way hinders their development.
Im all for a New ship with a New crew, even tackling the old crises of TOS, but they should do it on their own, with no handholding from Old Spock.
And anything may happen and go wrong, but who cares when you have the Uber experienced Spock on the other end of a Subspace channel to tell you what to do next.
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
Re: Spock's Conscience
There is no hand holding, Spock being on his death bed might quickly throw together information but the information is limited. The Feds now know there's a planet killer out there and have an idea of how to destroy it, that doesn't mean that they will succeed how they hope to. Anything can go wrong, old Spock isn't even in the picture anymore.
What about this new crew heading for the botany bay? they're not going to blow the thing out of the sky, they might wake them up and under estimate their abilities and any storyline can unfold from that. Those are just 2 examples, there's hundreds of possible places they might go and any number of situations to deal with.
Maybe the Federation decides instead of destroying the Bajoran wormhole they'll send a ship through to investigate this so called Dominion first and end up starting a conflict hundreds of years early.
There is no hand holding, Spock being on his death bed might quickly throw together information but the information is limited. The Feds now know there's a planet killer out there and have an idea of how to destroy it, that doesn't mean that they will succeed how they hope to. Anything can go wrong, old Spock isn't even in the picture anymore.
What about this new crew heading for the botany bay? they're not going to blow the thing out of the sky, they might wake them up and under estimate their abilities and any storyline can unfold from that. Those are just 2 examples, there's hundreds of possible places they might go and any number of situations to deal with.
Maybe the Federation decides instead of destroying the Bajoran wormhole they'll send a ship through to investigate this so called Dominion first and end up starting a conflict hundreds of years early.
When he's dead?
S
Stone_Cold_Sisko
Guest
Re: What should Old Spock tell Starfleet?
If the "prime" timeline was destroyed, then it would create that old time travel headache: "then he and Nero never come back in time, and this timeline would never be created"
Thus, the Prime timeline still exists, this is an alternate timeline that branched off.
If the "prime" timeline was destroyed, then it would create that old time travel headache: "then he and Nero never come back in time, and this timeline would never be created"
Thus, the Prime timeline still exists, this is an alternate timeline that branched off.
Re: Spock's Conscience
Well i'd be opposed to this idea since it would negate Ben Sisko entirely but I think we will have to agree to disagree at this point, because we are just restating the same arguments to each other. And we are seriously hi-jacking the thread.
What we can agree on however is future sequels should be new adventures, not dealing with TOS threats. And that a new series should be a new crew.
Well i'd be opposed to this idea since it would negate Ben Sisko entirely but I think we will have to agree to disagree at this point, because we are just restating the same arguments to each other. And we are seriously hi-jacking the thread.
What we can agree on however is future sequels should be new adventures, not dealing with TOS threats. And that a new series should be a new crew.