Spock got HITCHED?!?

[Myasishchev]

And when Roddenberry was actively running the show in the first season, he had McCoy make a cameo appearance in "Encounter at Farpoint" and allowed Kirk's name and ship to be mentioned in "The Naked Now."

The writers had to argue to get those references into "The Naked Now". Essentially, GR - and then Rick Berman - held tight to the "no TOS references" to force the writers to come up with extremely convincing arguments each time, because there had been a tendency, in verbal pitches, for the writers to suggest TOS sequels and returning TOS characters often.

For example, "Where No One Has Gone Before" is an loose adaptation of a TOS novel, "The Wounded Sky" (by its author, Diane Duane), Kirk was pitched to be the elderly admiral in "Too Short a Season", and Tracy Torme really wanted an Andorian in "Conspiracy" - and two Spocks in a time travel two-parter.

The general avoidance of TOS species--e.g. Andorians--always struck me as really wonky. I mean, by the logic of the rule, TNG shouldn't have had the by-far most overused race on TOS, the humans.

(Granted, I understand Berman thought the Andorians and Tellarites looked stupid, but you could make a case we're in the same category, especially in early TNG. )

Berman has done interviews where he talks about keeping the writers from constantly referencing TOS, and the TNG Writer's Bible mentions how our galaxy is very big, and states the tiny percentage that was mapped during TOS (was it only 3%?) and the relatively bigger, but not too much bigger (was it 11%?) that had been mapped by TNG.

Hm, that would actually be quite a lot of sky.

 

[seigezunt]

This is not a hobby. This is hell.

I think we just found the new motto for TrekBBS!!

Seconded.

 

[Therin of Andor]

The general avoidance of TOS species--e.g. Andorians--always struck me as really wonky. I mean, by the logic of the rule, TNG shouldn't have had the by-far most overused race on TOS, the humans.

They were working on the premise that Vulcans usually served on all-Vulcan ships, Andorians usually served on all-Andorian ships, etc.

Enterprise-D had a half Betazoid, a few Vulcans, a Klingon raised by humans, a Napean, several Bolian barbers, a Soong-type android - and not much else. Mainly humans. And the ship was not going to be re-entering known space for a long time. Admittedly, the mission changed after Farpoint, but that was the original intention: not to keep running into known UFP aliens.

 

[FormerLurker]

Don't forget the Bolian hairdresser.

 

[Myasishchev]

The general avoidance of TOS species--e.g. Andorians--always struck me as really wonky. I mean, by the logic of the rule, TNG shouldn't have had the by-far most overused race on TOS, the humans.

They were working on the premise that Vulcans usually served on all-Vulcan ships, Andorians usually served on all-Andorian ships, etc.

Enterprise-D had a half Betazoid, a few Vulcans, a Klingon raised by humans, a Napean, a Soong-type android - and not much else. Mainly humans. And the ship was not going to be re-entering known space for a long time. Admittedly, the mission changed after Farpoint, but that was the original intention: not to keep running into known UFP aliens.

Ah.

Still, pretty bogus.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Still, pretty bogus.

No, a perfectly reasonable cost-saving device, since the SAG couldn't supply ready-made, Hollywood-dwelling blue, green, yellow or pig-snouted human actors.

 

[DevilEyes]

And to all of those who think that it would be "icky" for Spock and Saavik to get married...do me a favor, just read Vulcan's Heart. It contains a very moving and realistic account of their relationship. After you read that, you will believe that they really are meant for each other. It's not something that they just threw together at the last minute. It's very believable. And cute.

Fair enough, for all I know it might actually be great in the book. I'll probably read it eventually once I get round to it.

I just don't think that there was much on screen to suggest that they were meant for each other or even interested in each other romantically. It's not that I find the idea of them marrying icky; I find their TSFS storyline icky, and, more to the point, a poor basis to base an entire idea of a romance (even Vulcan one) or marriage on. If one wants to postulate that there was *something* between them, other than the weird katraless Pon Farr thing, fine, but I can't say I've seen much on screen to suggest that. We know that he was her mentor and she cared about him and was shaken by his death, but the movies didn't really show much of their relationship beyond that; there was more 'sexual tension' between Saavik and Kirk in TWOK, and then there's the whole thing with her relationship with David, which comes off as rather vague and just hinted in the movie itself (like the fact that he was ready to give his life to protect her), but my impressions about it all are colored by the fact that I already knew that they were meant to be in a relationship in the script. And in TSFS, it was hard to get a read on how Saavik might or might not have felt about Spock, thanks to Robin Curtis' wooden performance. (There's a way to show a Vulcan's feelings or sensuality in a subtle way despite their restrained and suppressed behavior - I could see it with Spock and Sarek and Tuvok and T'Pol and Sakonna from DS9 "The Maquis", but I couldn't see it with Curtis' Saavik, except maybe in an instance towards the end of the movie wen she seems uncomfortable or embarrassed upon meeting Spock). There were more hints of possible romantic interest between Spock and Valeris in TUC, than there ever were between Spock and Saavik (which of course might have changed things significantly if Valeris' role had been Saavik's, as initially planned - but, it wasn't, and we're left with what was actually on screen).

 

[Agenda]

^It's even worse when you read the Pandora Principle, because it emphasizes the father-daughter relationship.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I just don't think that there was much on screen to suggest that they were meant for each other or even interested in each other romantically.

From memory, the novel suggests that here are two people, longtime friends and respected comrades, who have devoted their lives to their careers. Early and longterm romantic entanglements with others have eluded both of them, and yet Vulcans are very long-lived - and why live the rest of their lives in isolation?

It's a logical solution.

I already knew that they were meant to be in a relationship in the script.

Nope. The novelizations.

 

[DevilEyes]

I already knew that they were meant to be in a relationship in the script.

Nope. The novelizations.

Aren't those usually based on scripts and sometimes include deleted scenes, ideas that didn't make it to the final draft and such?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Aren't those usually based on scripts and sometimes include deleted scenes, ideas that didn't make it to the final draft and such?

Sure, but Vonda McInytre added heaps more to her ST II and ST III novelizations that was never even a glimmer in the scriptwriters' eyes.

Romantic interplay between Saavik and Kirk, and between Saavik and David, in ST II, were more like improvisations during rehearsals rather than implications from the actual scripts.

 

[T'Girl]

^ Saavik's pon farr gland has no off switch.

 

[Green Shirt]

^ Saavik's pon farr gland has no off switch.

Ya just gotta know how to turn off women. Gain a hundred pounds and lose half your teeth. Works for me.

 

[T'Girl]

^ Oh baby.

 

[Green Shirt]

^ Oh baby.

OOOOHHH, I am so hot right now!!!

 

[JustKate]

I really and truly think that this line was put in this episode on purpose as something for fans to fret and obsess over. I think it's deliberately and purposefully vague and open to various interpretations.

It was stated in interviews at the time that the line was kept vague to give fans something to ponder, not necessarily to fret and obsess over. (That's our choice to turn pondering into fretting and obsessing.)

If they'd come out and actually named Spock in the episode it kind of cuts the discussions dead. They were following a Roddenberry directive from Season One that TOS references be kept to a minimum.

Thanks, Therin. I was just guessing, and seeing as you're about 100 times more knowledgeable than I am, I know that you're not, and I feel all validated now.

Plus, I think it's kind of neat that the writers slipped this sort of thing in from time to time.

 

[Timo]

It's a logical solution.

You know, this aspect of the "romance storyline" has always intrigued me. Vulcans as presented to us in TOS were an interesting and seemingly conflicting package of advanced and rational mind wrapped in a culture of savagery, backwardness, male chauvinism and idiotic ancient customs. We gradually learned that Vulcans were held hostage by their violent heritage and inner darkness, and that, just like the logic and rationality, the "savage and custom-chained" culture was basically a straightjacket they had to wear if they wanted to walk among the sane...

In this context, doesn't it appear deliciously fitting that Spock would marry Saavik out of a need both logical and primitive - because he was responsible for he pregnancy? Spock once already dodged an arranged marriage where love or lust played little role. It would be fitting for him to fail to dodge a second one.

I mean, that's playing beyond the stereotype. A hero loved and envied by all gets forced into a marriage - and it turns out all right. Indeed, it appears that Vulcans might have the right idea with arranged marriages after all, when this "love will come later" thing pans out just fine for our hero. And never mind that there are aspects of all the other types of marriage that our culture has learned to hate, such as the age difference, the almost incestual-like relationship, the bonding across a rank gap and a boss/underling gap... All the better that it feels "icky" and seems predestined to fail - as when it succeeds so splendidly, we get a revelation worth a science fiction story.

Perhaps the writers should have added a few more taboos for better effect, such as bisexual polygamy?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DevilEyes]

It's a logical solution.

You know, this aspect of the "romance storyline" has always intrigued me. Vulcans as presented to us in TOS were an interesting and seemingly conflicting package of advanced and rational mind wrapped in a culture of savagery, backwardness, male chauvinism and idiotic ancient customs. We gradually learned that Vulcans were held hostage by their violent heritage and inner darkness, and that, just like the logic and rationality, the "savage and custom-chained" culture was basically a straightjacket they had to wear if they wanted to walk among the sane...

That's an an excellent description of the Vulcans.

In this context, doesn't it appear deliciously fitting that Spock would marry Saavik out of a need both logical and primitive - because he was responsible for he pregnancy? Spock once already dodged an arranged marriage where love or lust played little role. It would be fitting for him to fail to dodge a second one.

As you may know, Saavik being pregnant was planned at first and there was supposed to be a line (in TVH, I think?) about "her condition", but it was dropped.

II mean, that's playing beyond the stereotype. A hero loved and envied by all gets forced into a marriage - and it turns out all right. Indeed, it appears that Vulcans might have the right idea with arranged marriages after all, when this "love will come later" thing pans out just fine for our hero. And never mind that there are aspects of all the other types of marriage that our culture has learned to hate, such as the age difference, the almost incestual-like relationship, the bonding across a rank gap and a boss/underling gap... All the better that it feels "icky" and seems predestined to fail - as when it succeeds so splendidly, we get a revelation worth a science fiction story.

Perhaps the writers should have added a few more taboos for better effect, such as bisexual polygamy?

No need to bother, I think the arranged marriage itself is the ickiest of all the concepts you mentioned. But incidentally your claim that "our culture has learned to hate" is very questionable, depending on what you define as "our culture". If you mean "Earth culture" or "Human culture of the 20/21st century", that's not quite true, since it's not a monolithic culture and there are quite a few societies where it is still practiced. Not to mention that it was very widely practiced as recently as 100-150 years ago. Arranged marriages might seem like a crazy, outdated concept to my and my mother's generations, but some 75 years ago my grandparents got married without actually having known each other. Therefore the idea that stories about arranged marriages are so science-fictiony and subversive feels a bit silly.

 

[Timo]

As you may know, Saavik being pregnant was planned at first and there was supposed to be a line (in TVH, I think?) about "her condition", but it was dropped.

Quite so. It's more a lost opportunity than anything else.

Although in theory, one could see the baby (or perhaps the miscarriage?) "featured" in the later Sherman&Shwartz (or even Crispin) stories: it's something these aliens do not wish to bring up, so it doesn't appear in the dialogue, merely between the lines...

Therefore the idea that stories about arranged marriages are so science-fictiony and subversive feels a bit silly.

My take on this was merely that the people who consider arranged marriages icky would find the story arc revealing and interesting; other people would not get the same kick out of it. "Our culture" there would be very narrowly defined as yours (I presume, begging your pardon) and mine here and now.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DevilEyes]

My take on this was merely that the people who consider arranged marriages icky would find the story arc revealing and interesting; other people would not get the same kick out of it. "Our culture" there would be very narrowly defined as yours (I presume, begging your pardon) and mine here and now.

(Yes, you are right, my culture here and now, and, as I said, my mother's generation's culture finds arranged marriages a ludicrous and unacceptable idea, but it was completely different for mu grandparents and their 1930s rural community.)

My take is that such a storyline would have to be accompanied by another storyline that would show a contrasting example of a couple of an arranged marriage who are either miserable, or just tolerating each other; if not, it would all seem like a work with a political agenda, to send the message 'Oh look, arranged marriages are actually not so bad - honestly! See, they're actually a good thing!' And if you don't mind me saying so, there's nothing original and subversive when someone living in a liberal culture starts arguing for conservative values only because they think it would piss people off and be oh so shocking.

Especially when it flies in the face of realism; I'm sure that there have been people in arranged marriages who ended up really loving each other and being happy, but I'm also sure that there were others who hated each other and were miserable, and I'm guessing that most such couples just got used to each other and developed bond out of habit, the percentage of being fond of each other vs being irritated by each other vs just being indifferent varying from case to case.As for the one example I know, I can tell you that my grandparents were the case of people who just tolerated each other grumpily, except for the occasional outbursts when they were scream and shout at each other (grandma once got so angry threatened to kill grandpa with a knife she was holding - fortunately, that was just one of those things people say when they're angry. neither he nor me as an indifferent spectator, took it seriously...), didn't seem particularly close, which wasn't surprising since they had very different personalities, and weren't exactly unhappy only because neither of them seemed to ever had any idea that there is such a things as romantic love (except maybe as this thing that other people like to talk about and watch in movies...). At least I can guarantee that this was the case with grandma, who was very traditional and patriarchal (religion, hard work, taking care of family, that's all that matters), I'm pretty sure she had never been in love and didn't seem to have even an idea about it (I knew her well, because she talked a lot about her life, her father, family, everything)... She used to make me laugh whenever she'd see a movie kiss on TV and start complaining how terrible and immoral this is... but then one time she mentioned that sex, on the other hand, does not shock her, it's just what people do in marriage but it's no big deal, and that I shouldn't think it's something enjoyable because it's really not. That's just... sad. But they did live together for over 50 years, had and raised children, didn't divorce, didn't kill each other and neither of them had an affair as far as we all knew, so I suppose that's what's considered a relatively good marriage among people who practice arranged marriages?

Now, maybe Vulcans could be portrayed as being different because of their telepathy... but that still wouldn't help the impression that the writer is just trying to say "oh look, arranged marriages can be really awesome! Seriously!"