Spin-offs and poor treatment of TNG?

[Danja]

You've picked exceptions,and ignored the rules, haven't you? I could name twice as many instances where Spock "showed emotion" Spock, Data and Seven all had the same position in the ensemble. Cold, scientific, intelligent, out of place with their surroundings due to the duality of their existence, and one way or another they each had an issue with emotions. Is this really something to debate?

You wrote:

Seven was another Spock clone. Emotionless, super intelligent, complex background. She was the de-facto know it all science officer on Voyager.

There's a difference between having issues with emotions and having NO emotions whatsoever.

Having issues with emotions presupposes the prior EXISTENCE of said emotions in the first place.

I wasn't talking about their sex lives, out of curiosity, why would I be?

It was Kirk's trademark (when most people think of Captain Kirk, they think of his rampaging libido).

 

[Winterwind]

Really? When most people think of Kirk they think of his rampaging libido?

If they do they clearly haven't watched much of TOS and just buy into whatever they're told by others who also haven't watched much of it either.

 

[at Quark's]

To me, Picard always came off as bloviating. He was more of an archetype than an actual human being.

Perhaps. But still an archetype that fought with his brother in the mud and got drunk with him afterwards

 

[Danja]

Really? When most people think of Kirk they think of his rampaging libido?

If they do they clearly haven't watched much of TOS and just buy into whatever they're told by others who also haven't watched much of it either.

MeTV went so far as to compile a list!

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[XCV330]

Perhaps. But still an archetype that fought with his brother in the mud and got drunk with him afterwards

his brother had a fiery temperament.


too early?

too early. sorry.

 

[Winterwind]

MeTV went so far as to compile a list!

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A list that does nothing but perpetuate the false claim of Kirk's "rampaging libido".

Of those 19 women only four were women Kirk had feelings for, including one former lover. The rest were all either tactical seductions or external control (Parmen forcing him to kiss Uhura, Sargon in his body, etc).

 

[Qonundrum]

MeTV went so far as to compile a list!

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Holy Herpes, Batman!

Spoiler

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[Qonundrum]

A list that does nothing but perpetuate the false claim of Kirk's "rampaging libido".

Of those 19 women only four were women Kirk had feelings for, including one former lover. The rest were all either tactical seductions or external control (Parmen forcing him to kiss Uhura, Sargon in his body, etc).

True, but when in Rome...

 

[jmidnight_99]

You wrote:
There's a difference between having issues with emotions and having NO emotions whatsoever.
Having issues with emotions presupposes the prior EXISTENCE of said emotions in the first place.

A character
in the ensemble of each show
was scientific, stone faced, unemotional
and had issues with emotions.
On TOS, it was Spock, on TNG it was Data, and on VOY it was Seven.
Each of them had issues with Emotions.
On TOS, Spock wanted to purge them, on TNG Data wanted to gain them. on VOY Seven expected her implants to control them..

A character,
in the ensemble of each show,
was telepathic.
On TOS, it was Spock, on TNG It was Troi, on VOY it was Kes.

At least one character,
in the ensemble of each show,
was a half breed, struggling with the duality of their ancestry.
On TOS, It was Spock, On TNG It was Troi, but also Worf and Data, and on VOY it was B'Elanna, and later Seven.

I did not say each situation was exactly the same.

It was Kirk's trademark (when most people think of Captain Kirk, they think of his rampaging libido).

I'm very confused what this has to do with his command style. Does his choice of salsa and beer have some relevancy, too?

 

[Lance]

A character
in the ensemble of each show
was scientific, stone faced, unemotional
and had issues with emotions.
On TOS, it was Spock, on TNG it was Data, and on VOY it was Seven.
Each of them had issues with Emotions.
On TOS, Spock wanted to purge them, on TNG Data wanted to gain them. on VOY Seven expected her implants to control them..

A character,
in the ensemble of each show,
was telepathic.
On TOS, it was Spock, on TNG It was Troi, on VOY it was Kes.

At least one character,
in the ensemble of each show,
was a half breed, struggling with the duality of their ancestry.
On TOS, It was Spock, On TNG It was Troi, but also Worf and Data, and on VOY it was B'Elanna, and later Seven.

I did not say each situation was exactly the same.

It was definitely a format.

By the time of Voyager, it almost felt clinical.

Despite the allegedly 'far from the Federation' premise, Tuvok was there so they could do Vulcan stories, B'Elanna was there so they could do Klingon stories, B'Elanna also doubled as the 'half human' character for all the writer's conflict-of-two-sides type stories, the EMH was there to do synthetic lifeform stories, Kim was there so they could do naive newcomer stories (and, ridiculously, was still there for those 7 years later), etc etc.

It's like, Star Trek was a formula. And these character archtypes were all a part of that fomula. The cast was designed from day one specifically to be as generic a Star Trek cast as it was possible to be.

DS9 hid it better, but still had one or two characters like that. But TNG, VOY and ENT all, to varying degrees, had certain defined parameters they stayed within, arguably to their detriment.... and, eventually, to the detriment of rge franchise as a whole.

 

[at Quark's]

Let's see what we can come up with for DS9.

Sisko: Torn between Starfleet/Prophets; later turns out to be an actual human/prophet hybrid.
Kira:: Not really torn between Starfleet and Bajor but her position causes her to become the focal point of any conflict between these 2. "Difficult childhood" character (similar to TNG' s Lt. Yar, and to a lesser degree, Lt. Torres from Voy.).
Bashir: Early DS9: The "new and eager" one (similar to Kim). Late DS9: the "engineered" one with superabilities (similarities to Data, 7, EMH)
Odo. The outsider, observer of humanity. Similar in that respect to Spock, Data, Seven. Later also a changeling "outcast" character .
Dax: Personality hybrid, which one could say goes one level deeper than your usual hybrid. She both is and isn't Curzon. etc. Less "conflict" between those aspects, though.
Garak: The Cardassian outcast character; Also acts as commentator on Cardassianity.
Worf: The Klingon outcast character.
O ' brien: The ordinary guy. Similar to TNG's o' Brien (duh), and VOY's Paris, and probably TOS has a character like that too (Chekov or Sulu perhaps?).

 

[jmidnight_99]

It was definitely a format.

By the time of Voyager, it almost felt clinical.

Despite the allegedly 'far from the Federation' premise, Tuvok was there so they could do Vulcan stories, B'Elanna was there so they could do Klingon stories, B'Elanna also doubled as the 'half human' character for all the writer's conflict-of-two-sides type stories, the EMH was there to do synthetic lifeform stories, Kim was there so they could do naive newcomer stories (and, ridiculously, was still there for those 7 years later), etc etc.

It's like, Star Trek was a formula. And these character archtypes were all a part of that fomula. The cast was designed from day one specifically to be as generic a Star Trek cast as it was possible to be.

DS9 hid it better, but still had one or two characters like that. But TNG, VOY and ENT all, to varying degrees, had certain defined parameters they stayed within, arguably to their detriment.... and, eventually, to the detriment of rge franchise as a whole.

Exactly... except I don't mean this in a disparaging way. It's impossible to come up with entirely unique set of situations for all of these characters, and completely different ensembles that "work", so you mix and match what already does work.

My point is, which I think is getting a little off track is people see these shows as so different, favoring one crew and magnifying all the shortcomings of the other.

VOY's Tom Paris and Harry Kim were boring. Well, not nearly as boring as their TOS counterparts Sulu and Chekov.
They hired VOY's Jeri Ryan for her tits. Well, they hired TOS' Walter Koenig for his hair, at least Jeri Ryan could act.
Captain Picard is ST's best captain. Sure, if you're comparing him to the Love Boat's Captain Stubing.
Beverly Crusher was so boring they tried to replace her.

The point is you can see the same strengths and deficiencies in every one of these crews, from TOS to ENT. They're not any more prevalent in one crew than the other.

I should note Tuvok superceded Spock as my favorite Vulcan. I wish they had done just a few more Tuvok-centric episodes. Tim Russ was a perfect casting choice IMO.

Let's see what we can come up with for DS9.

Sisko: Torn between Starfleet/Prophets; later turns out to be an actual human/prophet hybrid.
Kira:: Not really torn between Starfleet and Bajor but her position causes her to become the focal point of any conflict between these 2. "Difficult childhood" character (similar to TNG' s Lt. Yar, and to a lesser degree, Lt. Torres from Voy.).
Bashir: Early DS9: The "new and eager" one (similar to Kim). Late DS9: the "engineered" one with superabilities (similarities to Data, 7, EMH)
Odo. The outsider, observer of humanity. Similar in that respect to Spock, Data, Seven. Later also a changeling "outcast" character .
Dax: Personality hybrid, which one could say goes one level deeper than your usual hybrid. She both is and isn't Curzon. etc. Less "conflict" between those aspects, though.
Garak: The Cardassian outcast character; Also acts as commentator on Cardassianity.
Worf: The Klingon outcast character.
O ' brien: The ordinary guy. Similar to TNG's o' Brien (duh), and VOY's Paris, and probably TOS has a character like that too (Chekov or Sulu perhaps?).

Yes, I left out DS9 because it's a little different. The ensemble isn't a "crew" like on the starship-oriented series.
Odo, Garak, and Quark etc. live and work on the station, but aren't officers. Kira works with starfleet but isn't exactly an officer, etc. but as you pointed out, there are formulaic similarities.

I don't think the ensemble of DS9 was complete until they got Worf, or VOY until they got Seven. In both cases, something was "missing".

 

[Danja]

They hired VOY's Jeri Ryan for her tits. Well, they hired TOS' Walter Koenig for his hair, at least Jeri Ryan could act.

There's always been more to Seven than just T&A (ESPECIALLY now that she's going to Picard).

 

[jmidnight_99]

There's always been more to Seven than just T&A (ESPECIALLY now that she's going to Picard).

Seven was the most important thing to happen to Voyager. You've read my posts, you know that I've said this repeatedly.

I am commenting here on the tendency of the producers to hire eye candy to draw viewers, and how that action is sometimes ignored on one series and magnified on others.

In the 60's, they brought on Walter Koenig and his Beatles haircut to attract female viewers. On Voyager they brought on Jeri Ryan in skin tight clothing to attract more male viewers, and retained Garret Wang because he was considered attractive to female viewers in a magazine. Many here negatively comment on the addition of Seven's tits and the retaining of Garret Wang, while ignoring the addition of Chekov to TOS for the same reason, not to mention the mini-skirts.

The point of my posts in this topic is how some people magnify "negative" things about one series, while ignoring the exact same thing in their "favorite" series, In line with the topic of this thread.

I was not commenting on how much there was to Seven, or the importance of the character, or "Picard", or her appearance on that show, because it's not relevant. Those are topics for another thread, I think.

 

[Winterwind]

Well...

As I recall they brought Koenig in as Chekov not to appeal to girls but to appeal to teens, regardless of gender. Part of the casting was some similarity to the look of Davy Jones of The Monkees but Koenig didn't have a Beatles haircut. He was clearly wearing a wig in his earliest appearances until his hair grew longer.

As far as eye candy... yep, sex sells. Always has, always will because people are people.

 

[gakelly]

and expect their opinion to be gospel

Not sure where I ever said my opinion was gospel
You are free to enjoy whatever you like about any of the characters you want. DS9 would be my favorite out of all the series, even though I don't believe Sisko was portrayed that well.
Yet in the same post where you rip on the fact that I didn't enjoy Janeway or Sisko, you make it perfectly clear that only an idiot could have an opinion different from yours. Excellent hypocritical post. Kudos indeed.

 

[jmidnight_99]

Not sure where I ever said my opinion was gospel
You are free to enjoy whatever you like about any of the characters you want. DS9 would be my favorite out of all the series, even though I don't believe Sisko was portrayed that well. Yet in the same post where you rip on the fact that I didn't enjoy Janeway or Sisko, you make it perfectly clear that only an idiot could have an opinion different from yours. Excellent hypocritical post. Kudos indeed.

Well, when I think of Captain Picard, I compare him to Captain Stubing from the Love Boat. But that's beside the point.

"After seeing the relatively poor performance of Sisko and Janeway (and the actors that portrayed those characters), Picard seems to be that much better."

I'm going to indulge myself. It's Christmas. Yes, this a ridiculous opinion. I'd go into why, but to what end?

 

[Lynx]

This thread is about something that some TNG fans might agree with and DS9 and VGR fans disagree with (or the orher way around) but I just want to say it.

As I'm a huge fan of TNG and not so much of the spin-offs that take place roughly the same time, I'm not completely happy with how they treat TNG.

I'm not saying that what those other shows affect the quality of TNG but some storylines are weird. When watching TNG you might think of something that happens later in DS9 or VGR, even if you don't want to. Somehow that kind of spoils some (perhaps small) things in TNG.

Few examples. These are my opinions, not facts.

I don't like the fact that Worf joined the crew of DS9. I don't think he was the Worf we knew on the Enterprise. Sure, different surrounding, different people around him but his behaviour changed and he felt like a different character and I don't think Worf character needed that, he was the safety officer on Enterprise and that's it. He should have stayed there.

Kurn. Worf's brother was now a suicidal wreck after being an awesome character in TNG.

Voyager and the Borg. Voyager was a brand new ship with new weapons and all that. Still, sometimes it felt that Voyager was a bit too strong when fighting the Borg. Enterprise-D got few shots in before the Borg adapted. After that no matter how much the Enterprise fired, it worked only once when Commander Shelby had an idea with the phasers.

And the Hansen story. TNG made the first contact with the Borg. Until VGR robbed that. Hansens knew of cube shaped ships and few things about the Borg before meeting the Borg. If there was some knowledge about the Borg during season 2 of TNG one might imagine that Starfleet had told something about the Borg to the flagship. But no.

Writers shouldn't borrow too much. Don't ruin TNG ”legacy”.

While I type this I realize that some of the things I find annoying might feel the exact opposite to others. But hey, opinios can't be wrong, right? At least opinions about television series.

Even if you don't agree with any of the things I mentioned, try not to hate me.

No,I don't hate you. On the contrary, I agree on many of your points here but not all.

First of all, I happen to like DS9 and Voyager (at least the first three seasons of Voyager) as well. I think that they are great shows in their own right.

For me, it's like enjoying a special kind of music but with different artists. As if TOS was Elvis, TNG was Beatles, DS9 was Rolling Stones and Voyager was The Who, Yardbirds, Animals, Traffic, Jimi Hendrix or something similar. In this case TNG (Beatles) were the first and the others followed and copied some of it but still added very much of its own.

However, you are right about some ideas and plots from TNG showing up in the other series as well.

Unfortunately, Berman, Braga and the others were sloppy in their writing from time to time, messing up existing timelines and established Trek history. There are too many examples of that, especially in the later seasons of Voyager and most notably in "Enterprise".

As for Worf, he was OK in DS9 and I thought it was nice to see him show up there. But he was much better in TNG.

I totally agree about Kurn. I didn't like the way he showed up in DS9 and I always wished that there would be an episode or book when he was brought back to normal.

I totally agree about The Hansen thing. Really lousy writing from those in charge. Captain Picard's Enterprise was the first ship to encounter The Borg. Period!

But when it comes to Seven Of Nine, the writers and producers were so obsessed with that character that they forgot or neglected almost everything else. As a fan of the Voyager character Kes, I'm still p***ed off by how that character was treated. Fortunately TNG didn't have that character destruction even if it annoyed me how Wesley Crusher was treated in the episode "Journey's End". Close to character destruction how they made him turn out like a brat and then catch up with that creepy Traveler instead of becoming a Starfleet officer.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The Enterprise was the first ship to encounter The Borg. Period!

Yeah, Captain Archer's Enterprise!

 

[Lynx]

Yeah, Captain Archer's Enterprise!

Archer?
Who's that.

But I guess I've only have myself to blame. I should have written "Picard's Enterprise" and I've corrected that in my post above.