It's TPTB's show ... and they're going to do whatever they want.
There's nothing to be gained by expending emotional energy.
Spin-offs and poor treatment of TNG?
- Thread starter JesterFace
- Start date
It's TPTB's show ... and they're going to do whatever they want.
There's nothing to be gained by expending emotional energy.
You may be right.
But fortunately those in charge cam't stop me from being dissapointed and angry over certain things.
Either way. It doesn't matter My point is that every series has something... it makes no sense to put the ills of one series under a microscope, while ignoring the very same ills in the series that one is putting on a pedestal..
We tend to ignore:
*Bad or sloppy writing
*Bad or boring characters
*Blatant T and A
*Plot Holes or discontinuity
*Bad Acting
*"Stupid" plots
*Changing history to support a story...
The TNG spinoff was not some perfect series. It suffered from all the same ills as the other spinoffs. Beverly Crusher was pitifully dull, and they replaced her. Tasha Yar was horribly miscast for the role, and they replaced her. Doctor Pulaski, who they brought on to replace Beverly Crusher was worse, and they replaced her. The fanbois hated Wesley Crusher, they minimized his part, and he jumped ship. Data's "emotions this and emotions that" were a ripoff of Spock, and seem kinda silly 30 years later. He went to the academy didn't he? Why does he act as if he was born yesterday, and every "human emotion", colloquial expression and expression of humor is the first time he's experienced it? The whole ship sometimes felt like it was commissioned by Royal Caribbean instead of Starfleet, and Riker often seemed like he was the captain, rather than Picard. Levar Burton was a terrible actor, and he was embarrassing to watch when he was asked to do anything but talk about engines and coolant leaks."I sense" Troi was completely non-essential, they should have dumped her and kept Wesley.
Some people love each of these characters (I still like Wesley!) but so what? Some people actually listen to Yoko Ono's records.
And despite these things, TNG show made some excellent science fiction, and I wouldn't have changed a thing. As did Voyager, DS9, and Enterprise.
To be fair, Chekov looked great wearing the TOS skant.
And now I've got that swinin' Nancy Sinatra songs stuck in my head again...
Pity I'm not good with AfterEffects as I'd replace a bunch of heads with Chekov's...
Part of the fun is to point out the same ills across the franchise's installments. I've seen youtube channels where they do indeed ignore previous eras... heck, me and others who do note the same issues don't always see or register them at the same time.
In order:
* inevitable for all shows and it's fun to pick episodes apart because we know they could have been better, though a lot of do also know that script writing is a hard job and deadlines can prevent a needed rewrite from turning a good story into a great one, or a fumbled one into a good one. This one is way too easy to forget because all we are cognizant of is the finished product and not the making of it. But keep in mind, these older shows didn't have CGI but did have double the episode count (or more). And older shows did start at a set point after a year. Some modern shows have much longer gaps. Add that to a smaller episode count and as CGI takes a long time to render, are the underlying contexts always identical across the decades - especially when CGI did not exist 30 to 50 years ago and had to be clever with practical effects?
* Inevitable. Some people harp for the enjoyment of hating it, others harp because they see potential and know the scripting isn't doing the idea justice
* At least we're seeing more male T&A... eventually audiences might prefer nobody's T&A?
* Inevitable - discontinuity definitely came about in an ironic way - to expand the lore. Thankfully Klingon and Borg lore were improved or otherwise everyone would turn to those examples as low hanging fruit to (nit)pick.
* Yup, everyone had a moment. Even Stewart had some cringe. Thank you again, season one!
* Oh, there are some real winners out there...
* in-show retconning ranks up there with discontinuity. As usual, if the changes are big and work people don't seem to be as concerned. It's a double-edged sword and any show can do it in any season. Doesn't always work but it's great when it does.
Season 1 is a real riot, which improved after its creator took a step back.
Worse than other spinoffs, in some ways. TNG was also the first big attempt to continue or remake a big franchise, since detractors of the time said "you can't remake star trek!" and those first two years, especially the first one, was proving them right. Had it not been for the lack of networks and other sci-fi shows, and - I'll admit it - strong incidental music and even high quality f/x - the ratings wouldn't have convinced anyone to keep the show going. But some of those early episodes had music and f/x uplifting a real pile and who wants to listen to exciting music while staring into the toilet bowl to begin with?
There are different reasons for her departure but some scenes she acts her socks off, especially with Stewart. I did a couple reviews and have a couple cooking where I point this out. Datalore was an example.
Most characters in season were dull. If Crosby had stayed for the long haul, season 3 would likely have paid off for her.
Crosby went in to play Troi but got Yar instead. Her speech in "Symbiosis" would have made her more interesting as Troi, I must concede. But Yar was often given the worst material in any number of scripts.
Pulaski was a breath of fresh air, since some on-bridge contention did stir things up. But fanbois shriked she was a McCoy clone ripoff (fast forward to 1995 and the EMH, who is far closer to anything approaching a McCoy ripoff than anyone else, and they say absolutely nothing. Picardo saved the character with his acting, but McCoy never engaged in alien rituals after taking antidotes as a preventative measure and Pulaski warmed to Data - McCoy never grew to warm to Spock. In both instances, Pulaski was never anything like a ripoff of McCoy.)
None of which was Wheaton's fault. Season 1 had him as a Marty Stu (and/or having every adult around him written like a twit just for the sake of Wes looking better, and those tactics never worked and never will for anyone) and later seasons (3 and 4) did diminish his screen time. Season 2 had the best material where he's a flawed being who had to grow.
Wheaton got actual death threats as well. WTF is wrong with those viewers. Nitpicking a show and poor scripting and/or delivery are one thing. Personal death threats are way different and very much out of line.
And very inconsistent. Early TNG treats Data either as an android who couldn't use contractions or as a Pinnochio with contractions. TNG was a trendsetter in trying to do what no show had done before and while even TOS Spock early on was very shouty and grinned at silly things (e.g. leaves blowing in the wind), I still think Data needed to be a little more consistent far earlier in the show's run. At least with Spock there's a way to retcon or explain those inconsistencies without violating continuity, if done right. Especially as the "grin at the leaves" was in a pilot and not an officially aired episode, but YMMV as to what is counted as being canonical. For Data, there simply is not. The "alternate timeline quietly swapped" notion works, as it reminds me of (SPOILER AHEAD FOR THE REMAINDER OF THIS PARAGRAPH) Professor Arturo in the classic Sliders episode "Post Traumatic Slide Syndrome" where enough circumstantial evidence suggests the wrong Arturo slid with the heroes. (END SPOILER)
Yup. "Class of '78", which doesn't fit in with the alleged 2360s calendar timeframe too. But TOS wasn't sure if it was 200 years in the future or 300, or even a year not specified. TNG was originally unsure and "78" suggests a 100 year gap - but it's closer to 80 years; sources need to synchronize more than their wristwatches...
For a human it might be a manifestation of Asperger's Syndrome. Problem is, Data is an android - as he tells us often enough. Too often, in fact. "Honest Trailers" pointed that out... so here it is:
Go T-Mobile!!
Problem aside, I like the fact he cannot remember.
Given all the technobabble he has to spout, I thought LeVar was fantastic, as well as having great screen chemistry with Brent Spiner.
The Hilton in Space joke still works to this day...
Now there's a parallel I never thought I'd ever get to read...
Ditto!
Part of the fun is to point out the same ills across the franchise's installments. I've seen youtube channels where they do indeed ignore previous eras... heck, me and others who do note the same issues don't always see or register them at the same time.
In order:
* inevitable for all shows and it's fun to pick episodes apart because we know they could have been better, though a lot of do also know that script writing is a hard job and deadlines can prevent a needed rewrite from turning a good story into a great one, or a fumbled one into a good one. This one is way too easy to forget because all we are cognizant of is the finished product and not the making of it. But keep in mind, these older shows didn't have CGI but did have double the episode count (or more). And older shows did start at a set point after a year. Some modern shows have much longer gaps. Add that to a smaller episode count and as CGI takes a long time to render, are the underlying contexts always identical across the decades - especially when CGI did not exist 30 to 50 years ago and had to be clever with practical effects?
* Inevitable. Some people harp for the enjoyment of hating it, others harp because they see potential and know the scripting isn't doing the idea justice
* At least we're seeing more male T&A... eventually audiences might prefer nobody's T&A?
* Inevitable - discontinuity definitely came about in an ironic way - to expand the lore. Thankfully Klingon and Borg lore were improved or otherwise everyone would turn to those examples as low hanging fruit to (nit)pick.
* Yup, everyone had a moment. Even Stewart had some cringe. Thank you again, season one!
* Oh, there are some real winners out there...
* in-show retconning ranks up there with discontinuity. As usual, if the changes are big and work people don't seem to be as concerned. It's a double-edged sword and any show can do it in any season. Doesn't always work but it's great when it does.
Season 1 is a real riot, which improved after its creator took a step back.
Worse than other spinoffs, in some ways. TNG was also the first big attempt to continue or remake a big franchise, since detractors of the time said "you can't remake star trek!" and those first two years, especially the first one, was proving them right. Had it not been for the lack of networks and other sci-fi shows, and - I'll admit it - strong incidental music and even high quality f/x - the ratings wouldn't have convinced anyone to keep the show going. But some of those early episodes had music and f/x uplifting a real pile and who wants to listen to exciting music while staring into the toilet bowl to begin with?
There are different reasons for her departure but some scenes she acts her socks off, especially with Stewart. I did a couple reviews and have a couple cooking where I point this out. Datalore was an example.
Most characters in season were dull. If Crosby had stayed for the long haul, season 3 would likely have paid off for her.
Crosby went in to play Troi but got Yar instead. Her speech in "Symbiosis" would have made her more interesting as Troi, I must concede. But Yar was often given the worst material in any number of scripts.
Pulaski was a breath of fresh air, since some on-bridge contention did stir things up. But fanbois shriked she was a McCoy clone ripoff (fast forward to 1995 and the EMH, who is far closer to anything approaching a McCoy ripoff than anyone else, and they say absolutely nothing. Picardo saved the character with his acting, but McCoy never engaged in alien rituals after taking antidotes as a preventative measure and Pulaski warmed to Data - McCoy never grew to warm to Spock. In both instances, Pulaski was never anything like a ripoff of McCoy.)
None of which was Wheaton's fault. Season 1 had him as a Marty Stu (and/or having every adult around him written like a twit just for the sake of Wes looking better, and those tactics never worked and never will for anyone) and later seasons (3 and 4) did diminish his screen time. Season 2 had the best material where he's a flawed being who had to grow.
Wheaton got actual death threats as well. WTF is wrong with those viewers. Nitpicking a show and poor scripting and/or delivery are one thing. Personal death threats are way different and very much out of line.
And very inconsistent. Early TNG treats Data either as an android who couldn't use contractions or as a Pinnochio with contractions. TNG was a trendsetter in trying to do what no show had done before and while even TOS Spock early on was very shouty and grinned at silly things (e.g. leaves blowing in the wind), I still think Data needed to be a little more consistent far earlier in the show's run. At least with Spock there's a way to retcon or explain those inconsistencies without violating continuity, if done right. Especially as the "grin at the leaves" was in a pilot and not an officially aired episode, but YMMV as to what is counted as being canonical. For Data, there simply is not. The "alternate timeline quietly swapped" notion works, as it reminds me of (SPOILER AHEAD FOR THE REMAINDER OF THIS PARAGRAPH) Professor Arturo in the classic Sliders episode "Post Traumatic Slide Syndrome" where enough circumstantial evidence suggests the wrong Arturo slid with the heroes. (END SPOILER)
Yup. "Class of '78", which doesn't fit in with the alleged 2360s calendar timeframe too. But TOS wasn't sure if it was 200 years in the future or 300, or even a year not specified. TNG was originally unsure and "78" suggests a 100 year gap - but it's closer to 80 years; sources need to synchronize more than their wristwatches...
For a human it might be a manifestation of Asperger's Syndrome. Problem is, Data is an android - as he tells us often enough. Too often, in fact. "Honest Trailers" pointed that out... so here it is:
Problem aside, I like the fact he cannot remember.
Given all the technobabble he has to spout, I thought LeVar was fantastic, as well as having great screen chemistry with Brent Spiner.
The Hilton in Space joke still works to this day...
Now there's a parallel I never thought I'd ever get to read...
Ditto!
Thanks for your nice reply. You make a lot of good points, and I agree with most of what you said here. I think you're on to something. when you say part of the fun is to poke at the Ills. It reminded me of a scene in the show "Frasier", where Frasier and Niles had just returned from dinner:
Martin: Oh, listen, thanks again for the ball game. It was great.
Frasier: Oh, God, it was a pleasure, Dad. I'm only sorry you couldn't join us for dinner afterwards. La Cochan Noir gave us a late seating for a fabulous dinner.
Niles: It was an exquisite meal, marred only by the lack of even one outstanding cognac on their carte de digestif.
Frasier: Yes, but think of it this way, Niles: what is the one thing better than an exquisite meal? An exquisite meal with one tiny flaw that we can pick at all night.
I guess I'm just accepting of the flaws? I dunno. It's easy, after you've seen every episode twenty times, to say "They shoulda done this..."
I like the first few seasons of TNG, as I like the first few seasons of VOY and DS9. I like ENT. Every show had to find it's mojo for the first couple of seasons. I like Tasha. I like Wesley. I didn't care if the was smarter than the adults. I liked Kes and I liked Seven. I didn't mind Beverly. I don't mind if some characters were based on others, and I don't feel the need to pick at nits. There are only a few episodes of each show I truly can not watch.
The only thign I'd change is each series should have gone on for another seven seasons.
While TNG wasn't perfect I think most fans do believe that the cast of characters overall was very good and though one or two were just OK even they weren't really bad (though thinking that many or more were boring, let alone bad, or their actors were bad, would significantly decrease enjoyment of the show). I also think most fans do think the show would have been better with more continuity (though not necessarily more serialization).
I'm not sure how many fans bash the later spin-offs for T&A, hopefully most admit that that's a part of all the ST shows (and a lot of other TV too). Edit: Although it is also OK to not like it and Enterprise arguably went further and more often than the other ST shows aside from the original.
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He's definitely a parallel character to but I think far from a ripoff of Spock. And I think the extent of his inexperience and so childishness was pretty toned-down after the first two years.
While season 1 was uneven, some low moments including whole bad episodes, I think it also a lot of entertainment and promise, especially that it very much avoided being a direct redo/remake/rehash ("The Naked Now" and "Code of Honor" and maybe "Angel One" aside) of the original series, in a lot of ways it went in very different directions and styles.
I think that was just 2 or maybe 3 episodes.
Looking back on it, I think only Spiner and Stewart were distinctly above average.
Personally agree with that, but have to add that for me, that's only when looking retrospectively. Didn't miss it at the time.
There is a distinction between "parallel" and rip off? That's splitting hairs. All of the qualities of the original crew were divided and dispersed in both TNG and VOY, especially the Spock character.
TNG didn't want a prominent Vulcan, to avoid being too close to TOS, but they needed those Vulcan qualities, and Data was born. VOY realized quickly that this type of central character was missing from their ensemble, and quickly rectified that. They didn't need to worry about the loss of their telepath from their ensemble, they had Tuvok to fall back on for the telepathy stories.
Spock was: calm, logical, and stoic. His He was telepathic. He had a duality to his personality due to his heritage and his position among humans. He was very intelligent. His goal was to purge all emotional distractions. He was the standout character, and while not the center of every show, was mostly why the majority tuned in.
Calm, logical, and stoic:
Spock, Data, Seven.
Telepathic ability:
Spock, Troi, Kes (Later replaced by Tuvok).
Duality and/or Inner turmoil, due to heritage and/or situation
Spock, Data, Seven, The Doctor.
Above average intelligence
Spock, Data, Seven, The Doctor.
Wants to modify and/or control their emotions, or become more human or less human:
Spock, Data, Seven, The Doctor.
Standout character:
Spock, Data, Seven, The Doctor.
Spock, Data and Seven (and to a lesser degree The Doctor) all occupied exactly the same place in the ensemble on each show. If they could have figured out how to make Data and Seven telepathic, it would have been a grand slam. In retrospect, Seven could have been telepathic... I'm sure the Borg assimilated dozens of telepathic species.
DS9 was quite a different show, and didn't follow the formula quite so closely. But it needed Worf to strengthen a mostly unremarkable cast. I left ENT off this list because they had their full-fledged Vulcan on board.
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Tuvok was also a full Vulcan.
Seven did not want to be human (the crew spent four seasons prodding her into it).
Can you tell what made Tuvok such a good character for you ? Just curious, as I have always had a bit of trouble finding him interesting.
Hello,
I think you may have misread:
I wrote "Wants to modify and/or control their emotions, or become more human or less human" e.g. A or B. Seven reacted negatively on a few occasions when her implants did not properly regulate her emotions, most prominently when her "cortical node" went on the fritz in "Imperfection", So the A part of the statement (and therefore the statement itself), is true.
Are you kidding? It's all about Jeri Ryan and her "catsuit" (BTW: What the hell is a catsuit???). I just like to bring up the fact that on TOS, all the women wore the miniest of mini skirts, and Chekov was added for pretty much the same reason (although, that one escapes me. Maybe if you drink a bottle of tequila and smoke some crack he might look like a baby faced Paul McCartney/Davy Jones hybrid)
But I don't think the Seven character was added just for the T and A, they needed a stronger character in that cast, someone who could generate interesting personal stories and scenes, instead of just being a part of a story anybody could be in. There was a wealth of possibilities with characters like Worf, Tuvok, Data, Seven, The Doctor, Spock, etc. But not so much for the other characters. Maybe this is why some of them are considered "boring". They might carry a background story or two, but then the ideas run out, and they become supporting characters. Even when the spotlight is on them, they are often in stories that could have been written for any other series, let alone another cast member.
What I mean is: In "Amok Time", you couldn't re-write Spock's scenes for any other crew member, but virtually every scene Chekov was in could have been re-written for another cast member.
Eh... looking back they were all adequate, and with good writing and the appropriate acting coach any of them could have pulled off a scene.
Sure, but it's difficult to explain exactly why in such matters of personal taste.
His interplay with the other characters, his devotion to his family, episodes like "Innocence", "Random Thoughts", "Gravity" and "Riddles" among others. One of my favorite Tuvok scenes:
Paris tells Tuvok about an alien system to create different habitats
Tom Paris : If you wanted to, you could recreate Vulcan in your quarters with that system.
Tuvok : Why would I want to?
Tom Paris : A little taste of home in the Delta Quadrant? Think about it - springtime on the shores of Lake Yuron!
Tuvok : I require a desk and a bed, nothing more.
Tom Paris : You're missing the point.
Tuvok : No doubt.
Tom Paris : These people have been traveling for 400 years. They've learned a thing or two about living comfortably.
Tuvok : Our systems are more than adequate.
Tom Paris : (Exasperated) Ah! I give up!
Chakotay : After only two minutes? Tuvok, how do you do it ???
Tuvok : I wait until his own illogic overwhelms him.
The delivery of that line is perfect.
I think Tim Russ does a pretty good job playing Vulcan. I know where you're coming from though, I barely took notice of the character for a long time... I was watching some episode, I think "Gravity" for the umpteenth time, and the quality of his performance just caught my attention, then I started to pay closer attention.
I agree with that. That's why I specified the character, not the actor, since I belleve Russ does a good job. It's just that I think Vulcans in general aren't that interesting, because there's little to "play" with, unless they have some additional quirk (like Spock, who was half human and struggled with that).
But, it's also true that having to work within strict limitations (such as playing a Vulcan) really can show us who is master of his trade (to paraphrase a famous saying), so next time I watch Voyager, I'll pay more attention to Tuvok, to see if I can see what you see in him. Thank you for your feedback on this.
To me, "average" and "adequate" aren't necessarily incommensurate terms, as I would expect an average actor in a television show to be able to pull off a scene. But Picard and Spiner really were a cut above the other members of the cast, imho.
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I can see that... Russ really nailed that character IMHO. And I agree, Vulcans aren't that interesting when they're "normal" Vulcans. Tuvok was outstanding in "Gravity" because his disciplines were tested, and again in "Riddles" when he was left impaired and only wanted to hang out with Neelix. "Meld" and "Innocence" are great Tuvok episodes, and I like them because they didn't directly "break" his discipline, yet they showed the complexities and nuances of of the character in unusual circumstances. "Innocence" is a weird episode, what made it interesting to me was wondering how Spock would have handled it.
You touched on an interesting question though: When looking back at these series 20+ years later, If Tuvok as a Vulcan wasn't that "interesting", how can any of the other character like Crusher, Troi, Kes, Paris, Dax, etc, etc, etc REALLY be considered "interesting"? Think of it this way: How many personal "Geordi LaForge" episodes or arcs can you have? By personal I mean an episode or arc that centesr on that character, and can't just be re-written for another. Not very many, if any at all. But there were many stories and arcs centered on Worf, Seven, Data, etc.
I've said it before I know but to me the really fascinating thing about Tuvok, and the thing that I think Tim Russ was so good at conveying, is that unlike Spock he isn't half-human... but he still has an internal conflict, between Vulcan and it's pacifist disciplines, and the fact thar he's a security officer and therefore needs frequently to be anything *but* pacifist. I find that incredibly engaging to watch play out. 
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