Spin-offs and poor treatment of TNG?

[Nakita Akita]

I didn't so much judge the actor, as the character. It's like they were deliberately trying to have a captain who didn't behave like Picard, & that basically meant... a terrible captain, who when left unopposed, constantly made poor choices, as a default

However, as to the OP. Honestly, I don't really have this problem, because in hindsight, I have very much compartmentalized all the shows at this point. Sure, they're all part of the same lore, but I almost never compare them to one another, & that has been a good philosophy as they now continue to add more content

TNG is what it was. DS9 is something different, just as TOS, VOY, ENT, DSC etc... are. The way I feel about each is its own entity, & can't spoil or be spoiled due to the others. I even think of it that way when considering TOS & their movies. The show & the movies aren't the same entity, and while I was very irked at the time the TNG movies came out, now that I've gotten some separation, I've begun to see the TNG movies as being equally unrelatable to that show, just like I do with the TOS films,

That happened right around the time the Abrams reboots happened. I just said F### it. There's no way to relate all this to one another. Accept each iteration as its own thing. Do it now, before this new Picard show shatters you yet again... because it is without a doubt going to

Picard was a little (lot) too perfect.
He was what everyone envisions their commanding officer to be, or the captain of the most special ship.

Sisko was more realistic. Superior officers make stupid mistakes, yep, it happens.
DS9 was more believable.
But I like personally like both almost equally.

 

[Mojochi]

Sisko was believably fallible & that plus the performance made it come off exceedingly well imho. Janeway, not so much.

While I'd agree Picard was an ideal construct, I'd hardly call him perfect. Nor do I consider him unbelievable in his ideality. Only in how it compares to other conflicted drama of the day could we possibly see it that way

The reason we have the term do-gooder is because there are rare occasions of people like Picard really existing. Plus, we're meant to accept that in the future, it might be a more civilized/advanced/progressive time, where that might not be as rare anymore... And I kind of like that dramatic premise

Somehow... I suspect we can kiss that all goodbye for the new Picard show

 

[at Quark's]

Picard was hardly perfect. Remember how grumpy he was in the first season, or how ill at ease around children. But yes, in terms of his job and moral integrity, he approached an ideal. However a character like Q still taught him some valuable lessons (whether that was Q's intention or not).

 

[Nightdiamond]

Picard wasn't perfect, but I guess some would say all of Picard's flaws involved pet peeves and quirks. He could seem super private to the point of seeming repressed. But for the most part to some it seemed as if Picard was a little too ideal or perfect because the plot would be solved before he (or the crew) would be tempted to do anything drastic.

In TNG, a crisis situation a lot of times played out the same way in the end-- Picard would give a great speech or the crew would come up with a technical solution and the problem is solved and wrapped up at the end.

In DS9, some of the situations couldn't be solved with a speech or technology. You're waiting for the speech or technobabble to come, and instead you get a compromise, a stand off, or an outright unexpected surprise.

Sisko and the Dominion war was an example. They were losing and there was no technological solution or speech that could change that.

Sisko went from trying to convince the Romulans (with evidence) to join the war, to outright tricking them into doing it when that didn't work.

It appeared "dark" but the Romulans were being very shortsighted and petty, and everyone knew if the Dominion did win, the entire AQ would be enslaved, just like the GQ. So it was hard not to sympathize with what he did. Pretty good drama and acting too.

I read that originally some wanted the war to last only a few weeks, that just didn't sound too realistic for a war this size.

 

[Prax]

I think it was originally going to be a six episode thing.

There are moments/episodes that each of the captains are annoying, or when they lose my sympathy.
For Picard, it's when he gets really self-righteous, and has that 'I hate you. I'm disgusted by you' expression.

For Janeway, it's when she gets too gung ho about sticking to some principle. I don't like her in Scorpion, or Prey but episodes like "Phage" mentioned above, or even Tu***, I thought she's amazing in. I have to be able to sympathize with her pov

For Sisko, it's not really the writing of the character that gets on my nerves, but more the acting, or if it is the writing, it's a combination of cheesy dialogue and overacting, like "and THAT'S a goal we all share. Humansssss.... Klingonsssss.... And Romulansssss....!" I like Sisko and Janeway better in the first four seasons or so of each show. They practice more restraint and seem to have a greater depth to them(in general).

These are all just small moments or single episodes here and there, and don't affect my overall appreciation of the characters.

For Archer, it's when he sometimes gets all emotional around Vulcans. Like, really emotional! It's too over the top. I've never met anyone who acted like that, especially not a high ranking officer like Archer is supposed to be. The Vulcans must think he's insane since he almost has a meltdown everytime he meets them.(Other than that, it's really hard for me to get annoyed with Archer).

A little restraint can go a long way, and still produce just as much drama. I'll take Law & Order over NYPD Blue any day.

 

[Mojochi]

In TNG, a crisis situation a lot of times played out the same way in the end-- Picard would give a great speech or the crew would come up with a technical solution and the problem is solved and wrapped up at the end.

Picard chose to not use an enemy combatant to get advantage against a mortal threat for his entire civilization, paid prices for it, been called into question over it, doubted it himself, & ironically, that guy is still around decades later to finish out some kind of story related to it. That one isn't wrapped up neatly

 

[Nightdiamond]

I think it was originally going to be a six episode thing.

Yes, that's it. For me this an example of what I said about earlier. I always thought this was too much an example of TNG style thinking, where a plot or story has to be solved or wrapped up quickly. The Klingon civil war is one thing, but this is supposed to be a major war like WW2.

There are moments/episodes that each of the captains are annoying, or when they lose my sympathy.
For Picard, it's when he gets really self-righteous, and has that 'I hate you. I'm disgusted by you' expression.

I think he does this with Ro after she left to join the Maquis. You can't forget that look. Although you see too much of Ro's point of view to sympathize with him.

For Janeway, it's when she gets too gung ho about sticking to some principle. I don't like her in Scorpion, or Prey but episodes like "Phage" mentioned above, or even Tu***, I thought she's amazing in. I have to be able to sympathize with her pov

For Tu***, the scene where she takes responsibility for "killing" Tuvix and makes him step into the transporter-- it took a silly premise and turned it into a serious, tense situation quickly. Janeway was great in that scene.

A little restraint can go a long way, and still produce just as much drama. I'll take Law & Order over NYPD Blue any day.

True, NYPD Blue can be too gritty. It starts gritty, runs gritty, and ends gritty. For a cop show, it is good to have some cerebral things thrown in like how Law and Order does.

 

[STEPhon IT]

This thread is about something that some TNG fans might agree with and DS9 and VGR fans disagree with (or the orher way around) but I just want to say it.

As I'm a huge fan of TNG and not so much of the spin-offs that take place roughly the same time, I'm not completely happy with how they treat TNG.

I'm not saying that what those other shows affect the quality of TNG but some storylines are weird. When watching TNG you might think of something that happens later in DS9 or VGR, even if you don't want to. Somehow that kind of spoils some (perhaps small) things in TNG.

Few examples. These are my opinions, not facts.

I don't like the fact that Worf joined the crew of DS9. I don't think he was the Worf we knew on the Enterprise. Sure, different surrounding, different people around him but his behaviour changed and he felt like a different character and I don't think Worf character needed that, he was the safety officer on Enterprise and that's it. He should have stayed there.

Kurn. Worf's brother was now a suicidal wreck after being an awesome character in TNG.

Voyager and the Borg. Voyager was a brand new ship with new weapons and all that. Still, sometimes it felt that Voyager was a bit too strong when fighting the Borg. Enterprise-D got few shots in before the Borg adapted. After that no matter how much the Enterprise fired, it worked only once when Commander Shelby had an idea with the phasers.

And the Hansen story. TNG made the first contact with the Borg. Until VGR robbed that. Hansens knew of cube shaped ships and few things about the Borg before meeting the Borg. If there was some knowledge about the Borg during season 2 of TNG one might imagine that Starfleet had told something about the Borg to the flagship. But no.

Writers shouldn't borrow too much. Don't ruin TNG ”legacy”.

While I type this I realize that some of the things I find annoying might feel the exact opposite to others. But hey, opinios can't be wrong, right? At least opinions about television series.

Even if you don't agree with any of the things I mentioned, try not to hate me.

It seemed as if both spin-off shows were trying desperately to get back those viewers who grew onto TNG. I wouldn't have minded Worf on DS9 if he stayed for limited run, until the Klingon crises was done. The Dax fling didn't feel right at all, especially when I thought his relationship with Troi felt natural to me.

The Borg coming to VGR was inevitable but productions have this constant habit to rewrite what was establish to make the saga their own. ENT did the same shit, and it was appalling. I thought TNG placed Q in a very nice place; like a bookend to all I experienced with this enigmatic character. On VGR he's simply a fool, DS9 did this sh*t too and I didn't like it either; if the idea to bring any of those characters back it should be an event 2 episode thing and done, and not some ridiculous series of shows (Do you remember that stupid civil war skit?).

 

[Nightdiamond]

Picard chose to not use an enemy combatant to get advantage against a mortal threat for his entire civilization, paid prices for it, been called into question over it, doubted it himself, & ironically, that guy is still around decades later to finish out some kind of story related to it. That one isn't wrapped up neatly

True. It did come back to haunt him later.

But it's also another case of Picard doing the "proper thing" which some critics accuse him of always doing, no matter what. As opposed to being forced to doing the opposite- use Hugh to infect the Borg because they don't know what in the hell else to do.


In some ways, the ending even made it easier by Picard suggesting if they simply return him to the Borg, his sense of individuality may simply infect the rest of the Borg and end the Borg threat. And that was that, a quick solution that made everybody satisfied. But it's true, it did come back to haunt him.

Ironically, in this one, Picard refuses to act against his conscience. Ro refused to act against her conscience too, for the same reasons, but Picard never forgave her for it.

 

[at Quark's]

Ironically, in this one, Picard refuses to act against his conscience. Ro refused to act against her conscience too, for the same reasons, but Picard never forgave her for it.

Yeah, but that's simply because Picard's conscience is the "correct" one, of course

Also it seems Starfleet Captains take a particularly dim view of Starfleet members going rogue. Remember Sisko going ballistic over Eddington, or Janeway over Ransom. Not saying they didn't have good reason, but in both instances they became so fanatic in catching their opponent that they went into some dubious territory themselves.

 

[Nightdiamond]

If you go against Picard in this match, you're going to lose. He'll out-conscience you.

In some ways it's not fair, since we see Ro's point of view, we see why she cant act against her conscience or she won't be able to live with herself.

To him, this was strictly a legal and professional thing, and not a moral conscience thing.

But Picard went temporarily rogue against the Federation in Insurrection-- because he couldn't blindly follow orders and go against his conscience. But he was legit angry at Ro when he found out she defected.

And Sisko was really angry at Eddington for the same thing.

This must be some weird type "top down" type of thing where the higher up you are, the less tolerant of insubordination you get.

Yeah, but that's simply because Picard's conscience is the "correct" one, of course

Also it seems Starfleet Captains take a particularly dim view of Starfleet members going rogue. Remember Sisko going ballistic over Eddington, or Janeway over Ransom. Not saying they didn't have good reason, but in both instances they became so fanatic in catching their opponent that they went into some dubious territory themselves.

 

[Qonundrum]

Mulgrew...
She didn't strike me as being someone I would want to follow. Her authority was a joke. Just because you raise your voice at someone doesn't mean they suddenly respect you as a leader.

That's true. It's a complex scenario, of which raised voices are one aspect of.

What did she ever do to make her crew want to follow her? Nothing.
I remember the episode where the Neelix guy had his lungs stolen from him and the crew caught the baddies. Instead of getting the lungs back via surgery and putting them back in Neelix, she gave some lame speech about not taking the lungs back because it would damage the bad guy. Who in the hell would follow a leader that showed such little concern for her own crew? She never shows any actual concern for her crew.
She is condescending to her crew on most occasions, makes terrible decision after terrible decision, and her voice is about as annoying as anything on television.
She is the main reason I think the show sucks. Someone that bad at her job would have been sent out the first photon torpedo hatch.

Oh wow. What's the name of that episode? There are many problems with that:
1. The baddie who is using these compatible lungs hopefully has enough immunosuppressants, which cause problems of their own - what fun
2. Neelix didn't authorize the removal, they were as vital as they were stolen. He needs them back...
3. So Neelix gets artificial lungs. Why not help and make fake lungs for the baddie? That way, Janeway can still find a balance - and a far better one - regarding compassion as well as ship and crew responsibility (something most Trek series remind us of).

There are numerous episodes where she does show concern for her crew. Even single one-off quotes like "Any threat to this crew or ship will be met by the deadliest of force. Is that clear?" does prove she's went out of her way to save them... despite other episodes where she may have made a "reckless decision" or what not that got a bunch of them killed, which is due to the scriptwriters trying to make the story move forward or scene drama up a notch... VOY's main failing was a lack of consistency, particularly with its premise, and to where the "zealotry" applied to "the prime directive" was concerned. But most if not all Trek shows disregarded that as well, sometimes with better scripted reasons.

 

[at Quark's]

If you go against Picard in this match, you're going to lose. He'll out-conscience you.

In some ways it's not fair, since we see Ro's point of view, we see why she cant act against her conscience or she won't be able to live with herself.

My apologies, I wasn't aware that being conscientious involved a competitive element as well.

But I was just joking here. In fact, I'd have to rewatch the specific episode before giving a considered opinion about Picard's specific reaction here. The 'serious' element would at best be that TNG had a knack of conveying the feeling: 'let's attempt to take other moral systems seriously, but in the end ours of course is best'.

Also, not even Picard was perfect on a moral level. There are instances in which he failed, morally. Homeward would be an example in my book.

And Sisko was really angry at Eddington for the same thing.

This must be some weird type "top down" type of thing where the higher up you are, the less tolerant of insubordination you get.

Oh, I can understand they were angry. However, they were angry out of proportion. It's no coincidence Starfleet decided to take Sisko off the Eddington case. Sisko was willing to poison an entire planet just to force the Maquis out . Janeway willing to gamble on the "snapping" of Lessing putting him in mortal danger.

Don;t get me wrong, it made the captains more believable and compelling in my book, but it shows to me that they took it personally, not professionally. (As far as I know, Picard never did that, except perhaps in the FC movie against the Borg)..

 

[Prax]

I think he does this with Ro after she left to join the Maquis. You can't forget that look. Although you see too much of Ro's point of view to sympathize with him.

That's precisely what I was thinking of. I'd love to know what Stewart or the Director exactly were trying
to portray in that scene in case I've misread it. Another one is Silicon Avatar. The episode makes, or tries to make Picard's apparent contempt justified by making the scientist lady totally nuts at the end, but before that, it was hard for me to not sympathize with her, especially when Picard compares humans to krill(They say 'cuttlefish' in the episode, but they meant krill).

ENT did the same shit, and it was appalling.

I'm just curious, could you elaborate?

. I thought TNG placed Q in a very nice place; like a bookend to all I experienced with this enigmatic character. On VGR he's simply a fool,

I found Death Wish to be one of the greatest Q episodes. It has a similar theme to TNG's Ethics, but much more existential in its exploration. De Lancie is really good here, as is the other actor. We also see this great representation of the Continuum, and the episode takes the bold, riskier choice at the end. In Ethics, Worf is of course saved at the end, and will be 100% healthy. In DS9's Sons of Mogh, an alternative is found for Kurn. In Death Wish, Q(Quinn) is allowed to commit suicide, and even more boldly, and in a twist, it's Q(De Lancie) who gives him Hemlock.

The Q & the Gray is another great Q episode, with a great performance by De Lancie as well as Suzie Plakson. That is... It's a great episode until the ending scene, where the crew dress up as Confederate soldiers with "Q Weapons." That was dumb, but the rest was good. The last Q episode is the bad one, but barely features Q. It's mostly bad because of "Q junior," an annoying asshat. IMO, Q fit in pretty good on VOY, and had great a chemistry between him and Mulgrew, at least as great as he did with Picard, if not more.

2. Neelix didn't authorize the removal, they were as vital as they were stolen. He needs them back...
3. So Neelix gets artificial lungs. Why not help and make fake lungs for the baddie? That way, Janeway can still find a balance - and a far better one - regarding compassion as well as ship and crew responsibility (something most Trek series remind us of).

I just wanted to point out,

They were indeed stolen from Neelix, and aside from instantly killing the Vidiian to take them back, it wasn't possible anyway. They were permanently altered by the Vidiians and no longer compatible with Neelix. The deed was done and irreversible.

Point 3 is then made moot, but for the sake of thoroughness- Neelix's artificial lungs were holographic and couldn't move around with him. If these were made for the Vidiian, the only way he could use them was if he permanently stayed aboard Voyager strapped down in the sickbay. Also, Neelix's artificial lungs were an emergency stopgap and wouldn't work as permanent solution.

It's no coincidence Starfleet decided to take Sisko off the Eddington case. Sisko was willing to poison an entire planet just to force the Maquis out

well... Sometimes you just gotta be the villain. Yoknowhatimsayin?

 

[Mojochi]

Ironically, in this one, Picard refuses to act against his conscience. Ro refused to act against her conscience too, for the same reasons, but Picard never forgave her for it.

We don't know that. Pissed? Yes. Betrayed? Sure, but we can't say whether or not he ever came to understand. I like to imagine he did make peace with it, eventually

 

[BillJ]

All the shows (even my nemesis Discovery) have their high points and low points.

We don't know that. Pissed? Yes. Betrayed? Sure, but we can't say whether or not he ever came to understand. I like to imagine he did make peace with it, eventually

He made peace with it in the DS9 relaunch novels.

 

[Farscape One]

Regarding Starfleet officers going rogue...

I understand Picard's feelings of betrayal and disgust at the end. He pulled a lot of strings and got her a second chance, and Ro betrayed that. It felt personal because it was. If she had resigned her commission and THEN left for the Maquis, I don't think Picard would have felt as betrayed. Seeing Ro's point of view made me understand her, but it was an ending where no one really wins.

Eddington... he ACTIVELY used his position as Chief of Starfleet Security on DS9 to not only feed information to the Maquis, but he stole those industrial replicators AND sabotaged the station and the Defiant with crippling computer bugs. That alone risked the lives of THOUSANDS of people on the station and ship. Of course Sisko would feel betrayed by that. If Eddington left Starfleet and then joined the Maquis, it wouldn't have been so bad. Sisko said that very thing in the teaser in "FOR THE UNIFORM". AND Eddington fired and disabled another Starfleet ship... we have no idea how many officers were killed in that battle. Eddington was not only a traitor, he was a terrorist. The wrath and anger he got from Sisko was well deserved.

Captain Ransom... he did do the wrong thing. He betrayed the principles of Starfleet and the Federation. She took it personally, and given how she rides her high moral horse, I can see that. He was committing genocide to get his crew home faster. That is inexcusable. Section 31 using genocide against the Founders was bad enough, but at least it was in response to a major threat of not just the Federation, but the entire Alpha Quadrant. Ransom doesn't have the self-defense argument that Section 31 has.

 

[Nightdiamond]

My apologies, I wasn't aware that being conscientious involved a competitive element as well.

But I was just joking here. In fact, I'd have to rewatch the specific episode before giving a considered opinion about Picard's specific reaction here. The 'serious' element would at best be that TNG had a knack of conveying the feeling: 'let's attempt to take other moral systems seriously, but in the end ours of course is best'.

No problem, I was making a joke on top of that, about how between Picard's and someone else's conscience, Picard's will win out every time. Ro's feelings kind of got overshadowed by Picard's.

That's precisely what I was thinking of. I'd love to know what Stewart or the Director exactly were trying to portray in that scene in case I've misread it. Another one is Silicon Avatar. The episode makes, or tries to make Picard's apparent contempt justified by making the scientist lady totally nuts at the end, but before that, it was hard for me to not sympathize with her, especially when Picard compares humans to krill(They say 'cuttlefish' in the episode, but they meant krill).

Yeah, I remember that scene and when Picard start talking about other ways to feed it, it lost me there. And then he argued it had just as much right as to exist as they did, it really lost me.

He's more concerned with communicating with another new life form, and even showed fascination when it looked like they could. Picard just seemed too out of touch.

But the episode backs him up!

The show mostly seemed to back up Picard when he was moralizing or angry at someone else. Like you said, it did it at the end with making Dr. Marr look crazy, and then with Data, by condemning her through her son, saying he would have been very disappointed in her. How could Data truly know what her son would think?

It was too late, we've seen too much of how Dr Marr felt, and how much damage and pain the Crystalline entity could do. Picard talking about finding other ways to feed it, and a top priorty is to communicate with it- it came off as out of touch. But the episode makes it looks like Picard was right and had the most wisdom in the situation.

Technically it was the "right" thing to do, which is why I think Picard critics tend to resent him for this.

 

[Nakita Akita]

No problem, I was making a joke on top of that, about how between Picard's and someone else's conscience, Picard's will win out every time. Ro's feelings kind of got overshadowed by Picard's.




Yeah, I remember that scene and when Picard start talking about other ways to feed it, it lost me there. And then he argued it had just as much right as to exist as they did, it really lost me.

He's more concerned with communicating with another new life form, and even showed fascination when it looked like they could. Picard just seemed too out of touch.

But the episode backs him up!

The show mostly seemed to back up Picard when he was moralizing or angry at someone else. Like you said, it did it at the end with making Dr. Marr look crazy, and then with Data, by condemning her through her son, saying he would have been very disappointed in her. How could Data truly know what her son would think?

It was too late, we've seen too much of how Dr Marr felt, and how much damage and pain the Crystalline entity could do. Picard talking about finding other ways to feed it, and a top priorty is to communicate with it- it came off as out of touch. But the episode makes it looks like Picard was right and had the most wisdom in the situation.

Technically it was the "right" thing entity as to do, which is why I think Picard critics tend to resent him for this.

I didn't see him wanting to save the Crystalline entity as being right.
I cheered when the Doctor blew it up.
The thing was killing people all over the place, and destroying all life on planets not just people. It's conceivable that it had killed billions upon billions of people and destroyed billions of other life forms.
It needed to be stopped.
The Dr. Was right.
Picard was wrong. But by simply being Picard we are supposed to know that he is right.
The crystalline entity is exactly the same as the Borg and he was wrong not to get rid of the Borg.

 

[Prax]

The thing was killing people all over the place, and destroying all life on planets

ohh, come now.. They're just cuttlefish