Spidey OUT of MCU

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Flying Spaghetti Monster, Aug 20, 2019.

  1. That's So Bane

    That's So Bane Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You tell me not to make assumptions and jump straight back to the same ridiculous assumption. There are lots of things 'I tried' could mean, up to and including quitting partway through one film and never watching another. But the phrase "I couldn't", not to mention "I don't see them", clearly indicates he didn't last long, so the odds of him still checking them out in 2014 or later or of him just happening to have seen the 2 specific movies out of 23 that Gunn did are clearly not great. And even if he did actually choose Guardians as one of the ones he tried to watch, it wouldn't change Gunn's point in the slightest. He's still passing a harsh judgement on at least a dozen plus movies he's never seen based on what he thinks they're probably like - regardless of whether he's doing it to James Gunn or to Peyton Reed or to John Watts or whoever else. And no, the Marvel 'style' is not even remotely so universal that watching one or even five of them is enough info to judge them all.

    No one would've cared in the slightest if he said 'I don't watch them. I tried, but they weren't for me.' That is what choosing whether you're interested in a series looks like. You don't watch 2 films (or whatever imaginary number you think we should pull out of his comments) and then say that based on those these other 15-20 different movies are not cinema because they're clearly all pure 'theme park' fluff. That's just ridiculous.

    Also, btw, he defined his use of the word cinema right there in the quote. 'That's not the cinema of human beings trying to convey emotional, psychological experiences to another human being.' He is not saying he just doesn't connect with them, he's saying they objectively don't meet his definition of cinema. Which is just plain false in the case of many different examples (especially the ones Gunn made, but also definitely Black Panther, Winter Soldier, Civil War, Infinity War, Ant-man, Captain Marvel, etc) - which he would know if he'd watched them.
     
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  2. Unaired Kai "the spy" TV Pilot

    Unaired Kai "the spy" TV Pilot Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You know what, I'm already regretting getting involved. Because it appears to me, you just want to be outraged. You want to be offended. How dare he have a low opinion of the MCU. And how dare I downplay this as just an opinion. How dare I offer different interpretations of his words.

    So, instead of going through your posts and reply to each and every point to draw this out into a tedious debate where we eventually just debate because we can't bear to be not 100% right, I'll let Iron Man talk some sense:
     
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  3. flavaflav

    flavaflav Fleet Captain Premium Member

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  4. Serveaux

    Serveaux Tasteless and unnecessary Premium Member

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    Downy's a grown-up. :)
     
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  5. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That's not what he meant by using the term "cinema". It is the art of the medium he's referring to, which leaves out (as one would conclude) films such as (for a few examples) anything by Ed Wood, Ishtar or the Schumacher Batman movies. There's a difference. That was his point, and he's largely correct.


    Quoted for truth.
     
  6. suarezguy

    suarezguy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    A big part of making a film is knowing some won't like it and will criticize, even won't like and will dismiss the kind of film it is, since that is so much a part of working in films at all they shouldn't take it personally.

    And part of making a film in a series or franchise is that you and it will get and be associated with both the positive and negative impressions people already have of the previous installments.

    What emotional, psychological experiences were conveyed in Ant-Man?
     
  7. ichab

    ichab Commodore Commodore

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    I can see both sides of this debate. I've always been peeved that Christoper Reeves didn't even get a nomination for the way he played Superman and Clark Kent. Anyone who knows anything about acting will tell you that he did a fantastic job and made these characters far more real than they ever had been before. He basically opened a door that allowed everyone to take that type of role seriously for the first time. But the academy always thumbs its nose at superhero, science fiction and horror movies. Robert Downey did do a good job with the way he played Tony Stark as did Chris Evans as Captain America and Tom Hiddleston with Loki. The MCU has done a great job with its casting and it should be recognized for that.

    On the flip side, the MCU does seem very formulaic. Most of the movies are enjoyed but easily forgotten. They aren't something that I spend too much time analyzing like say... the latest Joker movie. I never really get the mood to rewatch them either like I do with Star Wars , Indiana Jones or Batman. Avengers 1 and Infinity War would be the rare exceptions. In the end its all a matter of taste and MCU fans need to stop taking constructive criticism so personally.
     
  8. Yossarianator

    Yossarianator Commodore Commodore

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    Particularly before Steven Seagal was exiled to the straight-to-video section.

    TAXI DRIVER was squalid because it had to be. Travis Bickle was fighting against the feces and the filth as he saw it. So how can TAXI DRIVER be what you describe?


    He and Spader need to make a third movie together.

    His scream at Lois's death is still memorable. And his torment just before it. I like his last scene with Martha Kent.

    In my alterate Oscar reality, he did win Best Actor for SUPERMAN. Best Supporting for that was Damien for OMEN II, beating out Rene Auberjonois and Glenn Ford. Direction and Best Supporting Actress both went to BODY SNATCHERS 1978 (Philip Kaufman and Veronica Cartwright). I still gave Best Picture to DEER HUNTER. You can only ''Saturn Award'' '70s contests so much.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2019
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  9. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Good question. That can be extended to other MCU films.


    Not always. Frederic March was awarded a (tied) Best Actor award for the timeless Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde (1932), a film bodly and unabashedly horrific as it was dramatic in the other themes it explored.

    True; some are almost interchangeable, save for the fact you know there are different actors in the key roles.

    Again, true; some live and die by these films--far too much emotional investment in something that is so often just a product, and become incredibly hostile toward anyone "daring" to analyze--instead of praise--the films, as we see with the attacks on Scorsese.
     
  10. Unaired Kai "the spy" TV Pilot

    Unaired Kai "the spy" TV Pilot Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Not to disagree with your general point, but I'd just like to point out that while Ed Wood was hampered by a lack of technical talents in filmmaking, Glen Or Glenda was very much an expression of his inner self and as such a piece of art. It's not good, but it is art.
     
  11. Yossarianator

    Yossarianator Commodore Commodore

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    Art might be the combined result of high intent and high execution. High as in elevated, not as in druggy.

    Cameron could be speaking from jealousy. Perhaps he knew AVENGERS ENDGAME was about to surpass AVATAR's worldwide grosses. Scorsese was speaking from experience. Certainly not enviousness.

    Why isn't ''I don't consider them real films" not an opinion? That's different from active dislike. It's disinterest. Being diplomatic isn't prick-y, or hole-ish. You're coming off as extremely dismissive, and ageist here, and while you're not exactly lone in that, it's too dime-a-dozen for my tastes.

    In popular blockbuster movie terms, Martin is a great man. You may feel like he's great in getting us into trouble, but it strikes me as nerf-herdy to call such an established film legend what you have.
     
  12. EnderAKH

    EnderAKH Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    A father trying to stay in his daughter's life, and be a role model for her, even though he's made mistakes, and that same father feeling pulled back to those mistakes and feeling regret about it because of his daughter (Scott & Cassie)? A daughter trying to prove herself to her father who wants only to protect her, but also holds her back from what she is truly capable of (Hope & Hank)? I mean, I'm not saying they are the thing that holds the film together or that it is high art because it is at its heart a heist film, but they are there.
     
  13. crookeddy

    crookeddy Commodore Commodore

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    Ant-Man was a horrible example to use when asking that question. The answer is very obvious, as you described.
     
  14. suarezguy

    suarezguy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Scott didn't seem to be trying real hard or be repentant, it felt like Hank was right that the moment, or second or third, that things were tough he went back to crime. And despite Hank calling him out on that the tone was very light, giving some attention to the character's flaws and their consequences but not much, not much focus or weight. I guess that's a bit of content but pretty underwhelming (though the movie overall was OK). And, after getting a new chance and the relationship, in his next appearance he becomes a criminal fugitive.

    To me that, or at least Hank's side of it, felt really, really underdeveloped, to the point of being unbelievable, Hank training his daughter but not having her use that tech to go on the mission, seemingly just so that there would be something additional for a sequel.
     
  15. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's called being a flawed character.

    He didn't want her to go because he felt Scott was expendable and Hope wasn't. He was afraid he'd lose her the way he lost his wife.