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Spoilers Spider-Man: No Way Home - Review and Discussion Thread

Your rating?

  • A* (Amazing)

    Votes: 25 34.7%
  • A

    Votes: 26 36.1%
  • A-

    Votes: 8 11.1%
  • B+

    Votes: 9 12.5%
  • B

    Votes: 2 2.8%
  • B-

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • C

    Votes: 2 2.8%
  • D

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • F (Inferior)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    72
I can easily imagine a rewrite that plants seeds for later payoffs and better addresses the key problem in the story -- Peter wants to cure the Ferocious Five of their afflictions, knowing that when they return to their worlds, they will (in at least three of the cases) die pretty horrible deaths. Frankly, a line of dialogue from Otto probably would have handled it; he knows it's tragic, he knows it's their fate, and yet he accepts that this is what needs to be done. "I once called my Peter 'brilliant but lazy,' but you, Peter, you're brilliant and far from lazy. It has been my pleasure to know you, however briefly, before I meet my fate," is probably a starting point.
While I agree with everything you said there (particularly the potential Otto line), I want to address something different and perhaps trivial: The Ferocious Five. I figure that's just a term you coined here and not an actual team name in the comics (I have no idea...I haven't been a regular Spidey reader in many years). I think that works as a moniker and is better fitting than the legacy of the name the Sinister Six brings. I was originally a little disappointed that the film didn't hit that magical six spot, but since that six is usually an organized (or at least from Otto's perspective) effort against Spidey, it wouldn't be quite apt here especially since there was never a whole group attacking Spidey at any given time. Just some rambling thoughts that have been banging around in my head since Saturday.

The conversation with Ned about how, in the other universes, Peter Parker has a best friend who turns villainous and tries to kill him seems pretty over-the-head for most people. I got it -- Ned becomes the Hobgoblin -- but I'm not sure anyone in my audience did.
I was too busy loving how Ned experienced that mini-existential crisis regarding his friendship with Peter to make that connection in the moment, but I did realize after the fact that was they they were going for. I would be curious to see of that's the direction they go with in future films, but I'm also curious to see them explore the magical aspect of Ned's character that he appears to have. Especially since even Stephen was impressed.

Also, adding Captain America's shield to the Statue of Liberty is really gross and even straight-up fascist, given that we just had an entire television series about what the shield means and how people interpret it as a symbol.
I didn't think about that in the moment but you're absolutely right. Hopefully that's something that is addressed the next time we see Sam, presumably in the next Captain America film.
 
Ned gets brainwashed that he thinks he’s the Hobgoblin. Roderick Kingsley is the actual hobgoblin
 
He still exists, it's just that no one who knew him before remembers him.
I saw it this afternoon with my mom and I really enjoyed it, but she just thought it was OK.
I loved seeing the multiversal villains and Spideys, I enjoyed both series of movies, and it was fun seeing the characters again. I loved that this brought their costumes more in line with the comics, I especially got a kick out of how the coat Norman wore got torn in a way that made it look like his hood from the comics. I was surprised how much attention they gave to the Maguire and Garfield Spider-Men, I was expecting them to just show up for the fight at the end and then disappear. The little hints about what's happened since we last saw them were nice.
I really liked how much attention this one gave to Ned and MJ.
This had some great action, the Mirror World fight was pretty cool, and I loved the big Spideys vs villains fight at the end.
May's death was a surprise, but I guess since we never got Uncle Ben, they must have decided to have her take that role instead.
I'm very curious to see where they go with the next movies, is he going to go back to Ned and MJ or is he going to leave them be, and build up a new supporting cast? Maybe Gwen or Carlie Cooper or Felicia Hardy as a new love interest, and I'm coming up blank for a new sidekick/friend, but I'm sure there are characters that would work.
I haven't seen Venom: Let There Be Carnage, but I heard about the post-credits scene, so I understood the context to Eddie and Venom's appearance in the mid-credits scene, but it still felt kind of random since there was no other sign of them earlier in the movie, and there was no explanation for people not familiar with them. I was kind of expecting the mid-credits scene to hint that MJ or Ned were starting to remember, or something along those lines.
 
Dylan suddenly came to mind
"To be on your own, with no direction home
A complete unknown, like a rolling stone"
 
I just left the theater. 10/10 the best Spider-Man movie. Large part due to the continuity of Sony’s previous films, our 3 Spectacular Spider-Men, the MCU Spider-Man finally coming into his own and the Frightful Five! I’m still geeking out about the duel between two of Ditko’s characters. Strange vs Spidey!

I didn’t see May’s death coming and I was generally sad for this Peter. He lost Stark and now May. I was happy to see both Peter variants talk and provide guidance to MCU Peter in his time of need. Sad that TASM Peter never got better after Gwen but he didn’t quit either.

That final swing and that new suit were equally spectacular. Perfect way to end the movie. Give me more!
 
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Part of me wonders if the initial plan was to have Keaton back as the Vulture and/or Michael Mando back as The Scorpion since that seems to be something Homecoming was setting up. Maybe once the idea that this would be a multiverse thing was floated and the focus shifted to the previous franchise's characters it didn't make sense to include him anymore.

Either way, that thread appears to have been cut since unless something else happens; Toomes is back to having no clue who Spider-Man is, and just like the rest of the universe, has no memory of, nor even heard of Peter Parker. Which is a shame, because I always thought the idea of bringing Liz back somewhere down the line as a version of Black Cat has some potential. I guess they can still do that since she's still the child of a convicted thief who's fallen on hard times and suddenly found her once promising future ruined thanks to that jerk Spider-Man.
And if they want to be really cheeky about it, maybe she now goes by her middle name 'Felicia' and her mother's maiden name 'Hardy' (yes I'm making this up!) because if your dad is a notorious super-criminal, you'd probably change your name too.

The interesting possibilities in such a storyline of course stemming from the fact that she might understandably hate Spider-Man, while having no memory of Peter. While Peter very much would remember her, and while there certainly would no longer being any adolescent romantic feelings for her, he'd still care about her as one would any former friend/old flame, and (Peter being Peter) feel deeply responsible for her situation if she's ended up following in her father's footsteps.

Plus of course the MCU has been rather light on female antagonists, so that alone for me makes Black Cat (in whatever form) the preferable next choice for a Spider-Man movie. Hell, have her work for Fisk so they have the plit be about her getting out from under him, and setting her up for her own solo anti-hero movie/Disney+ show!

While I agree with everything you said there (particularly the potential Otto line), I want to address something different and perhaps trivial: The Ferocious Five. I figure that's just a term you coined here and not an actual team name in the comics (I have no idea...I haven't been a regular Spidey reader in many years). I think that works as a moniker and is better fitting than the legacy of the name the Sinister Six brings. I was originally a little disappointed that the film didn't hit that magical six spot, but since that six is usually an organized (or at least from Otto's perspective) effort against Spidey, it wouldn't be quite apt here especially since there was never a whole group attacking Spidey at any given time. Just some rambling thoughts that have been banging around in my head since Saturday.
I would argue that they did fill that sixth spot, it's just that Venom didn't bother to show up because while all the others were already in New York when they were yoinked across the multiverse and already had a reason to go after Spider-Man; Eddie/Venom were on the lamb down in Mexico and weren't in any big hurry, so spent the whole time getting drunk and arguing with themselves about whether it was a good idea to go skinny dipping.
 
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I would argue that they did fill that sixth spot, it's just that Venom didn't bother to show up because while all the others were already in New York when they were yoinked across the multiverse and already had a reason to go after Spider-Man; Eddie/Venom were on the lamb down in Mexico and weren't in any big hurry, so spent the whole time getting drunk and arguing with themselves about whether it was a good idea to go skinny dipping.

There was always Topher Grace's Venom they could have used. Like the Goblin, Doc Ock, and Electro. He too died fighting Spider-Man.

I imagine TPTB are full steam on Tom Hardy's Venom and don't want to confuse the audience with the two. Topher's Venom does fit the criteria though. Died fighting Spider-Man and needs to be fixed.
 
There was always Topher Grace's Venom they could have used. Like the Goblin, Doc Ock, and Electro. He too died fighting Spider-Man.
And you could live of nothing but marmite and oxo cubes for a whole month. Doesn't mean you should. ;)
Honestly, Sandman and Lizard had so little to do as it was, trying to cram Topher-Venom in there too is just asking for trouble. Besides, if you're going to add another SM3 villain into the mix, the much more interesting choice would be Harry, and see how he and his old man get along . . .
 
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We need to know more about this spell as Parker may no longer exist on that Earth. Hard to get a job when you have no social security/national insurance number.
With his computer hacking skill, he can probably and effectively re-insert himself into society. That said, at the end, he was carrying a How to Complete Your GED - so yes, it appears every trace of Peter Parker has been removed from the world's biological and digital memories.
 
We need to know more about this spell as Parker may no longer exist on that Earth. Hard to get a job when you have no social security/national insurance number.

Yea. I actually wondered about that as well. Spider-man exists even before he puts on that new handmade costume because JJJ is ranting about him. So it was just somehow the 'memories' of Peter Parker were removed from people, but not actually the 'existence' of Peter Parker because he is Spider-man and Spider-man's actions were Peter's . Nobody remembers him, but it's "magic" and it definitely is inconsistent.

Like why would pictures of Peter or mentions of Peter in emails or text messages, or anything else disappear from people's phones/computers... but Peter's ID and social security not disappear?

We know they can't change the present by changing the past. So it's not like Peter's "actions" can be undone and then we see "butterfly effect" changes based on that. It's the 'spell' I suppose trying to just remove memories/mentions/recorded information possibly of the name 'Peter Parker' yet still leaving 'Spider-man' stuff out there.
 
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With his computer hacking skill, he can probably and effectively re-insert himself into society. That said, at the end, he was carrying a How to Complete Your GED - so yes, it appears every trace of Peter Parker has been removed from the world's biological and digital memories.
I had a couple of thoughts on this when I left the theater that I've been developing a little since.

First, did the spell apply to offworld characters? In other words, when Nick Fury gets back from space, is he going to know who Peter Parker is? ("Peter MFing Parker, what the hell do you do?")

Second, what do the various Avengers characters remembering doing with Spider-Man? If he showed up on the side of Avengers Tower, would he be allowed in? And, if he was able to convince them that he was, in fact, the Spider-Man they remember, could they set him up with an identity?

Corrolary to the second: Post-Blip, there are probably people who can't document who they were pre-Snap, and there are probably government and non-profit programs set up to help these people get back on their feet, get identification, etc.

Third, I felt Peter missed an opportunity in his conversation with Happy at May's grave. When they were talking about people they lost, I think it should have gone like this...

Peter: "I always think about what Tony said to me." (Quotes something Tony said in a previous film, maybe Homecoming.)

Happy: "Tony?"

Peter: "Tony Stark, yeah."

Happy: "You knew Tony?"

Peter: "Yes. And I knew you too, Happy."

Happy (looking like he's been smacked in the face, because names hadn't been used to this point): "'Knew'? Who are you?"

Peter (leaving): "A friend who owes you more than you know, and also a friend who may need some help. If I do, I'll call on you."

I don't believe we're supposed to think about that kind of stuff.

Kinda like "One More Day." "It happened, don't think about it, move on" was the way Marvel treated it until recently.
 
And you could live of nothing but marmite and oxo cubes for a whole month. Doesn't mean you should. ;)
Honestly, Sandman and Lizard had so little to do as it was, trying to cram Topher-Venom in there too is just asking for trouble. Besides, if you're going to add another SM3 villain into the mix, the much more interesting choice would be Harry, and see how he and his old man get along . . .
An even better idea I just had, would be to revive Mysterio. Since neither death or alternate universes are enough to stop Strange's spell. Beck is revived and wants genuine revenge against Spider-Man. Blaming him for his death.

Nothing was wrong with Beck, aside from his grudge against Stark. Peter could settle the score the right way the second time.
 
An even better idea I just had, would be to revive Mysterio. Since neither death or alternate universes are enough to stop Strange's spell. Beck is revived and wants genuine revenge against Spider-Man. Blaming him for his death.

Nothing was wrong with Beck, aside from his grudge against Stark. Peter could settle the score the right way the second time.
Though if you brought back dead people from this continuity who knew Peter’s identity, surely then fans would want to know why Tony Stark hadn’t come back to life?
 
Though if you brought back dead people from this continuity who knew Peter’s identity, surely then fans would want to know why Tony Stark hadn’t come back to life?
Damn, you're right. You could probably finesse it though. As neither Harry Osbourne (Rami) or Gwen (Webb) made it to the MCU Earth either. Insert some sort of clause into the spell that those drawn to MCU Earth had a grudge against Spider-Man. The grudge was misdirected at the wrong Peter Parker and brought along the respective Spider-Men the villains were actually angry at.
 
Its another Marvel movie. It looked like a Marvel movie, it sounded like a Marvel movie, and it played out like a Marvel movie. Like I said in the Shang Chi thread, I'm bored with the sameness of them all. Phases 2 & 3 opened stuff up a bit with a few of the movies but then everything started reverting to the mean again.

Agreed.

I haven't seen anyone commenting on the villains lack of agency. Outside of Goblin they just did whatever the last person to talk to them told them to do:shrug:. They were macguffins, not characters.

Good point.

No exploration of what it means that they're being sent back cured. Did they change their timelines, despite Endgame talking about how that was impossible? Does Tobey go back to a world where Osbourne stopped Green Goblining around and is running his empire, with a non-traumatized Harry by his side? Does Garfield not have his climactic fighters with Lizard or Electro? Or did the cures reverse the moment they were sent back to when they left, with the movie essentially never happening for them?

Questions that will never be answered, since the entire villains popping in and "cure" sub-plot was so convoluted that it just tossed them into the film to be there, and ultimately leaving its nonsensical plot threads severed. At least there's one saving grace: anyone can watch the other Spider-Man films and never consider the events of NWH.

____________________________________________________________________________________________

Spider-Man: No Way Home
"W-what is he? Your ward?"

--Doctor Strange, Avengers: Infinity War

....the answer was and remains yes. Three MCU/Spider-Man films in--with No Way Home allegedly the last (not counting the rumored appearance in the Captain Marvel sequel, and Spider-Man lacked any of the depth, the individual's weighty, grim acceptance of a job he did not want, but his own inaction committed him to for the rest of his life. That should have been the foundation of MCU/Spider-Man, not the character being a version of the eager 1940s sidekick (i.e., a ward), and now dropped into some slapped-together version of One More Day and other thin stories.

As pointed out about Homecoming, MCU/Spider-Man never possessed the sense of greater purpose developed on his own--a sense of maturity. One would have expected that Spider-Man--after Civil War, where he knew there was a larger, more serious world out there, he would not be portrayed as just giddy to worship Mister Stark / join the club, but that was the heart of his characterization in Homecoming (the film where he was supposed to grow up a bit).

The Raimi Spider-Man (2002) started with Parker as a high school student, but that film--true to character origins--did not step around any personal failings or psychological trauma just to get to the noisy heroics. Raimi's film had Parker learn what it meant to misuse his extraordinary gifts at a terrible cost, so it justified his crusade. For some viewers to suggest No Way Home is following that Spider-Man storytelling tradition, one has to wonder where it plays out in the film. His motivation for contacting Strange is so uncharacteristic of the classic era of the published character, that again--three films in--Parker comes off as someone never learning anything about accepting life's sometimes dark, unfair consequences...but by this point in his MCU run, he should have crossed that maturity bridge. Its rare when a movie series lead ends in a far more ethically challenged position than his first outing.

Then, there were the villains...there for what reason? Dafoe and Molina (above all others) did not have a logical, meaningful plot to justify their presence--ultimately, they were there just to..be there, in one needless conflict after another, only living off of the fumes of better Spider-Man films. That point was screaming across the screen with Maguire's cameo.

Finally, there's May. Because she was so poorly developed, that her 11th hour line-drop / support and death felt rushed--a forced motivator for Parker, yet lacking dramatic weight. The connection and shared fortitude between aunt and nephew--that internal strength which comic book May always gave to/shared with Peter (perfectly adapted by Rosemary Harris in the Raimi films) was absent. Of course, when the MCU version began life more as a running, adolescent joke about how May was now some sort of "cougar" as opposed to the grandmotherly type, there was nowhere to go with such a character. Marisa Tomei is a far better actress than anyone would know just watching her as May, and ultimately, her version will be one of the more forgettable supporting characters in the MCU.

At the end of it all, MCU/Spider-Man--whether his own series ends here or he's given another--was more of a sidekick and witness to the world he lived in than one of its prime movers.

GRADE:C, only thanks to Maguire's cameo.
 
I don't get why Peter just didn't ask Strange to make the world forget Mysterio instead. Would've been more direct and effective.
 
For the same reason Strange asked Peter incredulously, after casting the spell, "You didn't even think to appeal MIT's decision?" Peter's brilliant, but he also makes stupid decisions.

Kinda fits with how Peter has been presented in the MCU though. He's very submissive to authority. If someone in a position of authority says something, he does it. He even calls everyone"Sir" or "Ma'am". Been that way since the start, when Tony showed up and told him to fight Captain America.

MIT said no, he's not going to think he can challenge them, they're the authority. He has to figure some other way.
 
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