Spider-Man: Homecoming' anticipation thread
- Thread starter Turtletrekker
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Apparently the portion of my previous post that I put in spoiler tags has been debunked, so I'm going to go back and remove it entirely.
Why does Tony Stark have to be a major part of Peter Parker's story? Why does he have to be a part of nearly everyone else's story? I get it. Iron Man was the first successful MCU movie. But that was nine years ago. He hasn't had a solo film in four years. And there have been successful MCU films without Tony Stark in it. Yet, Kevin Fiege is still pretending that he needs RDJ to have a successful movie. Why else would he allow RDJ to hijack half of Chris Evans' third solo film? Even after Evans had a massive critical and box office hit with "The Winter Soldier"?
Indeed, I felt that Spidey's uniqueness in the previous two series made for a basic change in the dynamic. In the comics, Spidey is usually unappreciated for his efforts, seen as a threat or a menace or at best a nuisance. Everyone admires the Fantastic Four and the Avengers, but poor Spidey is the working-schlub hero who gets no appreciation for all his hard work. But that doesn't really work in the movie universes, because he's the only one out there saving the city from these villains, so it becomes pretty well-known that he's a hero and you get a lot of beats with New Yorkers being big fans of his. It makes sense within those continuities, but it's a change from the traditional dynamic. Making him a novice hero in a universe with other established heroes would let them do something more like the comics, where he's the outsider among the hero community, the one who doesn't get the praise and admiration. On the one hand, being Stark's chosen "intern" kinda works against that, but the trailers show that Stark doesn't have full faith in him and shuts him out of the big leagues, so there is still an element of Spidey being the unappreciated outsider.
With Spider-Man coming in as a new teenage hero after the characters have established themselves, I think it makes sense that they'd give him a superhero mentor. With Peter being a nerd, it makes sense that they'd make the big inventor and tech based her, Iron Man that mentor.
There is also the fact that, whether we like it or not, RDJ is the most popular actor in the franchise, so they're going use him as much as possible.
Casting aside all arguments as to the 'merit' of including RDJ in SM:H, the principle behind the decision to do so is no different than including Patrick Stewart in the DS9 premiere "Emissary".
Not sure of the runtime of the movie but you're basically looking at Iron Man/Tony Stark probably being in the movie for 15 or so minutes of a two hour movie. He's there to mentor, then scold, and finally help him out in the end by working together because Tony learns something from Peter.
I think it will be the perfect amount
I think it will be the perfect amount
The mechanics of a connected universe aside, I think what a lot of people miss is that there's a direct connection between Peter and Tony in terms of a shared outlook and motivation.
In CW, when Tony asks Peter why he's doing thus his answer is: -
"When you can do the things that I can, but you don't... and then the bad things happen, they happen because of you."
That is almost exactly what's been driving Tony's character arc since day one. Survivor's guilt. A part of him is still stuck in that cave with Yinsen just as part of Peter is still stuck in that sidewalk with Uncle Ben. This wasn't just them dancing around the by now tired "great power" speech, it was worded very deliberately to resonate with Tony's arc.
One might also consider: of the established characters, who the hell else but Tony *could* be a mentor to Peter? Rhodey? Hank Pym? Vision? I don't think so somehow.
In CW, when Tony asks Peter why he's doing thus his answer is: -
"When you can do the things that I can, but you don't... and then the bad things happen, they happen because of you."
That is almost exactly what's been driving Tony's character arc since day one. Survivor's guilt. A part of him is still stuck in that cave with Yinsen just as part of Peter is still stuck in that sidewalk with Uncle Ben. This wasn't just them dancing around the by now tired "great power" speech, it was worded very deliberately to resonate with Tony's arc.
One might also consider: of the established characters, who the hell else but Tony *could* be a mentor to Peter? Rhodey? Hank Pym? Vision? I don't think so somehow.
The mechanics of a connected universe aside, I think what a lot of people miss is that there's a direct connection between Peter and Tony in terms of a shared outlook and motivation.
In CW, when Tony asks Peter why he's doing thus his answer is: -
"When you can do the things that I can, but you don't... and then the bad things happen, they happen because of you."
That is almost exactly what's been driving Tony's character arc since day one. Survivor's guilt. A part of him is still stuck in that cave with Yinsen just as part of Peter is still stuck in that sidewalk with Uncle Ben. This wasn't just them dancing around the by now tired "great power" speech, it was worded very deliberately to resonate with Tony's arc.
One might also consider: of the established characters, who the hell else but Tony *could* be a mentor to Peter? Rhodey? Hank Pym? Vision? I don't think so somehow.
Well, in a different sequence of events, Cap might've been a possiblity. They had a cool rapport in Civil War. But that probably would've required Peter to come to the Avengers rather than someone coming to him, which he wouldn't do. And Cap is currently a fugitive, anyway, so he's a little busy.
Hawkeye and Agent Coulson are also almost naturally mentor-figures, but no way Marvel would have them that front and center in developing their number 1 character. (Or have Coulson return to the movies in the first place)
If Sony had asked for a character other than Tony, be they 'featured' or 'lesser known', to mentor Peter in SM: H, I have no doubt that that request would've been granted, and Peter's interactions with Tony in CW would've either been a one-time thing or else alluded to in dialogue.
There is comics precedent for Tony as a mentor to Peter, of course. That was a major part of the original Civil War storyline -- Spidey had finally joined the Avengers, Tony had taken Peter on as a personal protege both as a scientist/inventor and a superhero, and so Peter initially sided with Tony in the conflict over superhero registration, even publicly revealing his identity. Eventually he realized he'd chosen the wrong side and defected to Cap's team, and once it was all over, Doctor Strange cast a spell to erase everyone's knowledge of his identity (unfortunately including Aunt May, who never really achieved her full potential as a character until she learned Peter was Spidey and chose to support him in that role).
So since Spidey was introduced to the MCU in the movie version of Civil War, it made sense that he'd be introduced as Tony's protege. I'm just disappointed there wasn't enough room in the story to show him realizing that he should be on Cap's side instead. But I get the sense that maybe Homecoming is where they're going to show Peter getting disillusioned with being Stark's protege and striking out on his own, just in a different way.
So since Spidey was introduced to the MCU in the movie version of Civil War, it made sense that he'd be introduced as Tony's protege. I'm just disappointed there wasn't enough room in the story to show him realizing that he should be on Cap's side instead. But I get the sense that maybe Homecoming is where they're going to show Peter getting disillusioned with being Stark's protege and striking out on his own, just in a different way.
It's been confirmed/stated/revealed that Peter's ultimate goal is to
, so something is going to have to change in order for that to happen since the team, while * officially * disbanded, is still active, albeit on the run.
join the Avengers
Leaving aside that at the moment it seems very unlikely that the movie people will ever bring back Coulson (much less in Spider-Man movie) in order for a character to be a viable mentor, Peter needs to already look up to him. That pretty much narrows it down to just Steve & Tony for fairly obvious reasons.
As you say, Cap does/would have a good rapport but Peter's introduction would have to have been handled very differently and it doesn't really jibe with the trajectory his character has been on since TWS.
Tony on the other hand is perfect, both for what they have in common, how well they could get along and
(perhaps most important of all) how they would clash. I don't think any other character checks all those boxes.
As I noted above, the fact that Peter has a very specific end-goal in mind, ultimately, means that it's somewhat inevitable that he's likely to separate from Tony's influence and find others, like Captain America, to mentor him.
From the time he first debuted in the comics in 1962 (while he was in high school), I don't think Peter Parker ever really had a mentor, other than his uncle Ben. Now, all of a sudden, he is required to have either Tony Stark or Steve Rogers as a mentor. The more I think about this, the more I regret that the MCU was ever able to get its hands on Spider-man.
And the media constantly point out that the highlight of the Spider-man comics happened when Peter was in high school. Yet, that highlight occurred when he was in college at ESU. He didn't even meet Gwen Stacy, Harry Osborn and Mary Jane Watson until he was in college. So far, not one Spider-man movie or franchise has reflected this.
True, Spidey was usually the lone wolf hero in the 60's and 70's ( even when teaming up). His relationship with other heroes was often strained due to his quirky "public" persona. The hit pieces in the Bugle by JJJ probably didn't help either. He learned to be a hero on the job.
The irony here is that had they gone that route, fans would be crying out for stronger ties to the larger MCU and as many Iron Man cameos as can be managed.
Try to understand though that this is still Spider-Man's introduction. I'm sure eventually (probably by the end of his first movie) he'll be striking out on his own as the friendly neighbourhood wall-crawling menace the character is best known as. This is how character arcs work. In order for him to be a solo act in a world already teaming with people he would be logically teaming up with and deferring to, he must first experience what it is to live in another's shadow. In other words: you don't go straight from Crime Alley to the Batcave. The bit in the middle is a vital part of story telling.
Try to understand though that this is still Spider-Man's introduction. I'm sure eventually (probably by the end of his first movie) he'll be striking out on his own as the friendly neighbourhood wall-crawling menace the character is best known as. This is how character arcs work. In order for him to be a solo act in a world already teaming with people he would be logically teaming up with and deferring to, he must first experience what it is to live in another's shadow. In other words: you don't go straight from Crime Alley to the Batcave. The bit in the middle is a vital part of story telling.
All four parts of the NBA Finals promo uncut and in one piece.
http://io9.gizmodo.com/spider-man-homecoming-producer-says-venom-silver-and-1796205381
Producer Says Spider-Man: Homecoming, Venom, and Silver and Black Will Exist in Same World
Will they? Won't they? I think they should.
Producer Says Spider-Man: Homecoming, Venom, and Silver and Black Will Exist in Same World
Will they? Won't they? I think they should.
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