Some points about Star Trek VI:The Undiscovered Country

[Pauln6]

I love Saavik and would hate for her to have become an evil character.

Admiral Cartwright going bad doesn't sour previous films in the series. Saavik going bad, on the other hand, would sour TWOK.

Cartwright's a throwaway character; Saavik not so much.

I personally think that Meyer is bad at directing Vulcans. Nimoy understands his character and species, regardless who is directing. I actually think that Curtis was more than capable of portraying Saavik in Meyer's universe under his direction. He just didn't think the audience could connect with someone whose emotions are subtle subdued and I disagree.

In fact, if Saavik had been the traitor, the plot could have been tweaked to make her less ruthless, so that Kirk and Spock could win her over rather than resorting to dreadful unlawful interrogation methods, thus redeeming her somewhat.

I don't think Saavik would have overshadowed the originals any more than Valeris did and, in fact, her presence in STV could have added a much needed female presence, and given us some details of her traumatic childhood, which could have dovetailed very neatly with STVI.

 

[Lance]

Plus it behooves him to be a student of human nature, for tactical reasons.

Absolutely. Like the tacticians during World War II who, 'method acting' like, immersed themselves in listening to Wagner to try and get inside the mind of the enemy. Like a game of chess. Think like the enemy, and you can outmaneuver them tactically.

 

[Lance]

Hate to do this to you, but

Kruge

Point taken.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

He may have lost a brother to Klingons...

He didn't.

 

[STEPhon IT]

The position of the 'bad' guys in TUC is not necessarily an 'evil' one - from their point of view they are protecting their respective empires, they are morally ambiguous at best, some of their actions you could describe as evil but their motivations certainly aren't.



I'm not saying for a second you wouldn't have guessed it was her, merely it would be an interesting and dramatic plot twist for the character to take, much like Admiral Cartwright.

I'm guessing we're talking about Kirstie Alley's Saavik; I don't think it would work for me and Yes it would be an interesting plot twist. Could this scenario worked better with Robin Curtis' Saavik, since she was a cold, less emotional character?

 

[STEPhon IT]

What a missed opportunity to not have Excelsior go into Transwarp drive since they were so far away from the peace conference.

 

[FormerLurker]

What a missed opportunity to not have Excelsior go into Transwarp drive since they were so far away from the peace conference.

Who says they didn't? The difference in visuals between the TOS movies and TNG of ships going to warp may well be the difference between warp and transwarp. No one ever said being inside a transwarp field looks any different to the traveler than being in a mere warp field, and inside the field is all we ever see of Excelsior at warp.

 

[STEPhon IT]

I thought visually it was a missed opportunity but by this point the concept was forgotten and I don't believe Meyer ever cared about the elements happened in TSFS, besides Spock's resurrection, which I personally can't blame him. If the concept is to invite the audience to the future, I thought there should be some sort of transition - subtle - but not overtly like TNG transporter room and the warp core. The ideas and imagery were bland, the director needed more time and money to fully digest what this concept was about.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Could this scenario worked better with Robin Curtis' Saavik, since she was a cold, less emotional character?

I don't think so, since Curtis wasn't as good an actor as Alley.

 

[Pauln6]

I don't think so, since Curtis wasn't as good an actor as Alley.

I always thought Curtis was fine in the other roles she did, including her role in TNG. Alley's Saavik had a vulnerability that was appealing and bringing that to the traitor could have been quite compelling. Nimoy wanted Saavik to cast aside her emotional Romulan heritage. I would have liked to see Curtis given a chance to show that she could bring layers to the character.

 

[STEPhon IT]

I don't think so, since Curtis wasn't as good an actor as Alley.

Curtis is a good enough actor but she wasn't a star like Kirstie was; Alley's involvement had to be as screen heavy as her role in TWOK. The movie was set up where she was the replacement for Spock since Nimoy at the time couldn't give a sh*t about it. Nimoy obviously had a change of heart but there was no way a star like Alley was gonna be second banana in a movie like TUC, she would want a billing as close to Nimoy and that would've cost big league. Curtis is a working performer and has done tons of screen role as a supporter, with her skills as an actor I'm sure she could've filled into the role of Saavik, but it would be her Saavik and I would've bought it. There's no way I would buy Alley's Saavik betraying Spock, and Kirk a person she feared and highly respected. I enjoyed Valeris done by the great Kim Cattrall who is unrecognizable in the role, but after some of the insights Curtis shared with a convention audience on Nimoy directing her, I could see that Saavik fitting quite well in that traitor role.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I don't know why everyone hates Curtis. I always liked her better than Allie. I thought she was one of the best parts of her film.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Does everyone really hate Curtis? Nah, many just loved and preferred the character introduction and moving development of Kirstie Alley's role. Nimoy, I thought, didn't like the Saavik character and as a helmer stripped everything lovable about her and Robin Curtis had to do the best she could with what's left. For me, there was nothing to like about Curtis' portrayal, she did a job and done. Off to Macgyver!

 

[Pauln6]

Curtis is a good enough actor but she wasn't a star like Kirstie was; Alley's involvement had to be as screen heavy as her role in TWOK. The movie was set up where she was the replacement for Spock since Nimoy at the time couldn't give a sh*t about it. Nimoy obviously had a change of heart but there was no way a star like Alley was gonna be second banana in a movie like TUC, she would want a billing as close to Nimoy and that would've cost big league. Curtis is a working performer and has done tons of screen role as a supporter, with her skills as an actor I'm sure she could've filled into the role of Saavik, but it would be her Saavik and I would've bought it. There's no way I would buy Alley's Saavik betraying Spock, and Kirk a person she feared and highly respected. I enjoyed Valeris done by the great Kim Cattrall who is unrecognizable in the role, but after some of the insights Curtis shared with a convention audience on Nimoy directing her, I could see that Saavik fitting quite well in that traitor role.

Alley wasn't really a star at that point but her star was rising and they really just didn't want to pay her what she was worth. Admittedly, not as big a crime as the Indiana Jones team letting one of the greatest movie heroines of all time, Marion Ravenwood, fall into disuse but I suppose most actresses today are still underpaid compared to their male counterparts.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Does everyone really hate Curtis? Nah, many just loved and preferred the character introduction and moving development of Kirstie Alley's role.

Exactly. Curtis is fine, but Alley did a much better job as Saavik and is a better actress overall, IMO.

Alley wasn't really a star at that point but her star was rising and they really just didn't want to pay her what she was worth.

Kirstie Alley wasn't a star in 1991? She was a regular on Cheers, which was a consistent Top Five program, if not the number one show on TV. She just won the Emmy for Best Lead Actress in a Comedy Series. And she had two of the massively successful Look Who's Talking movies under her belt by 1991. She was a BIG star at the time of STVI.

 

[Pauln6]

Exactly. Curtis is fine, but Alley did a much better job as Saavik and is a better actress overall, IMO.

Kirstie Alley wasn't a star in 1991? She was a regular on Cheers, which was a consistent Top Five program, if not the number one show on TV. She just won the Emmy for Best Lead Actress in a Comedy Series. And she had two of the massively successful Look Who's Talking movies under her belt by 1991. She was a BIG star at the time of STVI.

Yeah sorry, I meant at the time they were casting for STIII.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Yeah sorry, I meant at the time they were casting for STIII.

While responding to a comment that was specifically about STVI? Okaaay...

 

[Pauln6]

While responding to a comment that was specifically about STVI? Okaaay...

Yes, it was more in the context of whether Curtis would have been acceptable in STVI i.e. that at the time Alley was originally replaced, she wasn't a big star not that STVI hinged on star power. I don't know why she wasn't keen to return but I don't think her experience on STII was that pleasant and maybe she thought she was big enough that she could leave it behind, or maybe she was just busy. Cattrall would be third in my list of the three choices tbh.

 

[JLBTucker]

VGER 23 asked me to expound on my dislike for Star Trek VI because he also expressed a dislike for it. I thought it best to spin this into its own thread because it seemed off-topic to the thread where the discussion began.

First, these opinions are of course my own. Your mileage may vary.

ST:TUC bothers me on any number of levels. I'm all for the idea that we need to get past our prejudices in order to make progress but I dislike the way the point was made. Roddenberry was idealistic enough that he gave our heroes the ability to see past their personal prejudices and keep our eyes on a brighter future. By ST VI, our idealistic crew have become a bunch of grumpy old geezers who seem reluctant at best to be assigned this mission to escort the Klingons to a place that is willing to provide them assistance.

I can understand Kirk's reluctance to be given this mission given what happened to his son. I truly admire Kirk and McCoy's willingness to assist the Klingons after an unprovoked attack seemingly from the Enterprise. I'm more upset that the secondary characters all seem incredibly irritable rather than eager help the Klingons and build a brighter future.

Some things I dislike are dictated by the story. Why does the Bridge suddenly have large digital clocks everywhere? Obviously the story requires it but its too on the nose in my opinion.

I kind of lost some respect for Spock because of some of his actions in this film. Spock's forcibly extracting information from Valeris' mind is as much a violation of Spock's principles as anything I've seen and cheapens the character. Perhaps the reborn Spock doesn't have the same disdain for cruelty that the old Spock seemed to have (remember Nimoy invented the nerve pinch because he thought that Spock hitting someone was out of character). In my opinion, it's the single most vile scene in all of Star Trek.

Continuing on the Spock vibe, he seems like a very different character in this film. He and Valeris seem to have a "relationship" of sorts. It might not be intimate but it smacks of a sort of mid-life crisis. Valeris hangs out out in Spock's room, admiring his art collection while Spock is mixing drinks and serving them to her in a silver chalice. When did Spock acquire a taste for the finer things in life like silverware? I know this scene is intended to make Valeris' turn as the villain all the more powerful. Sadly all I see is an old guy hitting on the new girl in the office.

Then there are the little things that irk me. Spock stating that "only Nixon could go to China" is an old Vulcan-proverb. Or General Chang quoting Shakespeare which is of course better when you have read it in the original Klingon. Huh?!

The Director's Cut adds scenes that remarkably cheapen the story and should have been left out. We got an Oliver North-type character named "Colonel West" (that's not too on the nose, is it?) who's all military and eager to risk lives to save Kirk and McCoy (and he's got the paper maps and pointer to prove his plan will work). Perhaps worse of all, we've got the Scooby-Doo moment when the mask is pulled off the Klingon assassin's face to reveal it was Colonel West all along. The original cut of the film is better without these silly scenes.

Please don't get me wrong...the basic idea of the film is fantastic but it is delivered with all the subtlety of a sledge hammer. As I've mentioned in the previous thread I happen to like a lot of the films that rank very low on others lists such as Star Trek V and Nemesis (though both have lots of faults as well) so it's probably natural that I dislike Star Trek VI as much as I do. I rewatched it recently and found much to admire about it that I missed 20+ years ago but the facts remain that it's my least favorite Trek film of them all.

First of all as a person who is well versed ins 20th century history (history is my major) some of the confusing quotes you mentioned are real life things said by real people that the movie. Chang saying that Shakespeare is better in the original Klingon is a reference to Adolf Hitler who loved Shakespeare and claimed that Shakespeare was originally German. Spock's line about Nixon going to china was a joke about president Richard Nixon who despite being one of the most staunch opponents of communism actually traveled to china and the Soviet Union and made great strides in communication and helped mend tensions witch eventually helped lead to the end of the cold war. So Spock is making a joke that maybe Kirk can do the same with the Klingons.
As to the comment about the prejudice of the crew, iv'e personally never bought the notion that in the future of Trek prejudice is a thing of the past. Call me a pessimist but I think prejudice is something that will always be a constant in humanity as a whole because people being people will always end up fearing something they don't understand and lash out its an innately human trait that uniformly is part of our evolution and the crew having prejudices about the enemy they had been in conflict with for decades is natural and all too human.
As for Spock being out of character to forcibly mind meld is it out of character and against his principals well yes it is but Spock being a very logical person knows that it more important for him to do something he doesn't like then let peace fall apart, the needs of many. As for Spock hitting on Valries he doesn't its about him wanting to pass on the torch and him being oblivious to he fears about the future. He wants to be her mentor not her lover.
Haven't seen the directors cut so no comment. As for the technical stuff I don't care Trek always loves to play fast and loose with their level of tech so bleh.
In the end VI is my favorite of the movies because I love history and I love politics this the most historical and political the Trek movies ever got and I love it. I like that people in the movie have qualities that are not perfect and iv'e never really liked Genes vision of a perfect future because to say bluntly a perfect future can be very boring. Maybe you just have to be the right kind of person to like it but I love it and its little historical nods.

 

[JLBTucker]

I'm surprised that so many Star Trek fans watch this movie and fail to realize that in-universe both the Nixon and Shakespeare lines are jokes.

Spock is making a deadpan joke like he does all the time.

The Klingons are taunting the humans.

It's surprising how many people dint get that or their historical context