Some points about Star Trek VI:The Undiscovered Country

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by pfontaine2, Apr 20, 2018.

  1. Cutie McWhiskers

    Cutie McWhiskers Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    They're still 23rd century humans. But with Spock vouching for Kirk before actually talking with him, intended as a funny line or not, seems out of character. I'd be reluctant and grumpy too.

    They're just along for the ride?

    Back in the day, I thought it was cool. Nowadays, not noting where they didn't reset the clocks between camera takes or got scenes out of order (oops!), it just seems superfluous. Just ask Uhura what the time is.

    Excelsior didn't have clocks either...

    On the plus side, had this been STV:TFF, the clocks would have included little birds popping out every hour and chirping.

    It's said to be tantamount to rape or torture. But Spock is in a unique position, in extraordinary circumstances, tends to be truthful, Valeris was already revealed as a traitor, Spock has telepathic abilities via the mind meld, Valeris was content to let a very bad thing happen, and time was clearly an urgent situation.

    With all the reports in the news about Bill Cosby lately, that's what you're seeing. If you saw the movie years ago, or indeed in 1991, did you have the identical reaction? It also foreshadows why Tuvok has rituals and things that seem un-Vulcan, yet are very Vulcan. It's all about Vulcan ritual. But that only goes so far. Artwork is an anomaly, but then Spock played music in the 1960s TV show and music is an audible form of art. But if either of us never cared about art but one day bought the Mona Lisa, the one where the appraisal machine reveals the words "THIS IS A FAKE" written in felt-tip under the paint, people would probably wonder what the heck happened as well to want a hang a giant picture of a wryly smirking person without eyebrows on their wall. In other words, circular logic makes me dizzy. I don't know.

    Those didn't work for me either.

    I'd surmise that Vulcan teenagers have what is known, colloquially, as "drinking game", and the Nixon line came about by one of the drunken kiddies.

    Would Klingons have really visited Earth to teach Willy how to write "A Midsummer's Night's Dream"? Or worse, visiting to teach Woody how to make "A Midsummer Night's Sex Comedy"? **shudders**

    Maybe the makers decided Chekov already had plenty of screen time so they rewrote that bit? :D

    My guess is, it's all homage and tribute to TOS as "Chekovisms", made global by letting every other species look as stupid and pompous as well.

    Entirely agreed.

    But could it be a homage to Adam West, given how campy "the original Klilngon" and all the other Chekovisms were? Ollie was on trial for something, but it wasn't anything like what West did. Was Colonel West's first and middle names Clayton Endicott? :D

    Thankfully, the revealing scene wasn't done in Scooby Doo style. That would be worse, zoiks!

    Right out of half of TOS Season 3's playbook. :D

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    VI is well-directed and acted. A big step up after the comedy routines of V and IV, for which neither has dated too well. IV may have been made better but to be frank, V over time just feels like a better, deeper story or a story with better potential with some (spiritual) depth, the comedy thrown in to capitalize on IV's comparatively successful (over)use of it.

    Yeah, as camptacular as it all was, I'm ambivalent - which is as much an odd thing as it is a good one because part of me rather enjoyed it. I think it's due to how Christopher Plummer does his deliveries, aided by Nicholas Meyer's panache. But campy or not, was the scene intended to be a wind-up against the humans? It's a lead-in to the Klingons' dilemma, which is rather clever and even great on a dramatic (or melodramatic?) level. Chang, et al, clearly studied Shakespeare at one time - arguably as preparation for dealing with Kirk as Shakespeare is his favorite author (and, I just remembered, is said in the movie.) So that would make narrative (as well as theatrical) sense, and the only bad Chekovisms then go to Spock with his goofy Nixon reference (which works on a certain level, even if it's almost as out of place as Troi mind-raping the Viceroy in 'Nemesis' despite having zero ability to project anything, even saying so in multiple episodes.)
     
  2. Cutie McWhiskers

    Cutie McWhiskers Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The pacing was excellent. The story overall was solid...

    Yeah, it's a weird quadrilogy (TWOK/TSTS/TVH/TUC). Arguably should have been a quintilogy given the recurring characters (esp. Lt Saavik and Adm Cartman), except TFF comes of the deep end, acting more like a one-off, extended TV episode special whose ending feels like a more charming, shiny/happy version of 'Day of the Dove' despite the story having nothing to do with Klingon/Human animosities.

    Roddenberry hated the notion of Starfleet going bad. But TNG used the trope several times in the movies and even in the TV shows (Admiral Pressman was the coolest, though.) Trouble is, by the time TNG's movies were done, were there any good Admirals left, apart from Janeway?

    ^^this, big-time. I wasn't able to articulate it, only a weakly structured implication that it had to be done to prevent a massacre.

    And the heartbeat sound effect was that good.

    Makes sense. Still wish the dining room wasn't the TNG briefing room. They couldn't get an angle to photograph an angle that didn't give away the angle that it was a set redress.

    It, for the time, was such an unusual situation. Extraordinary times could lead to extraordinary reactions?
     
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  3. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Commodore Commodore

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    Drop the mic.

    I am perplexed how some are fans of such a lame technology. Several threads I've read some fans keep making the argument the weapon shouldn't have an Achilles heel, and Star Fleet should invest in one. Forgetting to understand Star Fleet ships are better than the opposing side.
     
  4. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    In some ways, the Balance of Terror cloak is far more realistic, preventing automatic weapons lock, but still allowing the ship to be detected at short ranges from its manoeuvres.

    Cloaking technology should be used to hide Subspace relays but it's not that useful for Federation ships IMO. For example, the only logical way Nero could have got to Earth without them knowing he was coming would be if he went in under cloak AND destroyed the relay stations in between Vulcan and every nearby Federation planet, right? Otherwise, the Enterprise would have warned them, or at least asked Scotty to warn them (apparently they could have just used hand held communicators as in Into Darkness). If the relays had been cloaked, he could not have destroyed them, and there would have been no way they would not have known he was coming.

    If HE'D been cloaked on the other hand, he could still have coasted past the automated defences and the waiting Enterprise, using planetary gravity to slow him down as necessary. As soon as he applied his breaks though, it would be possible for him to be detected from his emissions. Cloaks are useful but not really that great. The Enterprise crew should have known how to track them immediately.
     
  5. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Commodore Commodore

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    I can only surmised the JJcrew were all green and probably not as knowledgeable in tactical activities. Any Alien terrorist who create a terrorist action on Earth or toward Earth and succeeds just exposes the cynicism of the writers and most likely the directors. Earth should never be treated like Pearl Harbor but more like the Fortress of Solitude; try to come and threaten Earth and they'll be obliterated.
     
  6. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Fortress of Solitude? Mix metaphors much?
     
  7. FormerLurker

    FormerLurker Commodore Commodore

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    Unfamiliar with Superman and Doc Savage? Doc had such a Fortress at least mentioned in all 178 or so of his adventures, and Superman stole the idea. This all back in the 1940s.
     
  8. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Fortress of Solitude not Pearl Harbor
    =
    mixed met·a·phor
    ˈˌmiks(t) ˈmedəfər/
    noun
    1. a combination of two or more incompatible metaphors, which produces a ridiculous effect (e.g., this tower of strength will forge ahead ).

    I swear, sometimes...
     
  9. FormerLurker

    FormerLurker Commodore Commodore

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    Well, STEPHon IT got it backwards anyway. A Fortress of Solitude is a safe retreat where one goes to re-coup and re-energize. Pearl Harbor is the actual "Attack us and we will destroy you" metaphor. Though for the first few years, until the battle of Midway, the US wasn't doing much in the way of proving that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
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  10. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Admiral who? :lol:

    "Respect Starfleet's authoritaaahhh!"
     
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  11. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    :guffaw:

    Maybe they meant Cartwright?
     
  12. Marsden

    Marsden Commodore Commodore

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    I thought of one more thing I didn't like. It's red alert, battle stations, everyone get to your place that you need to be for battle. Ok, so why are all of those guys laying in bed? Is that the best way to form a damage control party, in bed? That was just stupid.

    Ok, I'm done now.
     
  13. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

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    Kor
     
  14. MAGolding

    MAGolding Captain Captain

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    Mark Lenard (October 15, 1924-November 22, 1996) and Jane Wyatt (August 12, 1910-October 2006) were Sarek and Amanda in "Journey to Babel" which was filmed from 21 to 28 September 1967. So if the characters were the same age as their actors Sarek would have been 42 and Amanda 57, 14 years older, or about 1.3 times as old as her husband.

    In Star Trek (2009) Sarek is played by Ben Cross (b. 16 December 1947) and Amanda by Winona Ryder (b. October 29, 1971). Since was filmed from 7 November 2007 to 27 March 2008 Ryder was 36 during filming and Cross was 60 & 61. So if the characters were the same age as their actors Sarek would have been 60 & 61 and Amanda 36, Making Sarek 25 years older, or 1.69 times his wife's age.

    But in "Journey to Babel" we can assume:

    1. Amanda was about as old as Jane Wyatt looked.

    And:

    2. Jane Wyatt looked close to her actual age of 57.

    It may be noted that my copy of the script of "Journey to Babel" describes Amanda s 58, while The Making of Star Trek (1968), Part II: An Official Biography of the ship and its Crew, Chapter 5, "Mr. Spock", says that Amanda is 58.

    In "Journey to Babel":

    And The Making of Star Trek (1968), Part II: An Official Biography of the ship and its Crew, Chapter 5, "Mr. Spock", says that Sarek is 102.

    Thus Sarek is about 44 years older than Amanda, and about 1.75 times her age. The age difference would have been much greater when they got married.

    In Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country Spock is portrayed by Leonard Nimoy (March 26, 1931-February 27, 2015) and Valeris is portrayed by Kim Cattrall (born 21 August 1956). The movie was filmed from 11 April to 2 July, 1991. So if the characters were as old as their actors Spock would be aged 60 and Valeris aged 35, making Spock 25 years older than Valeris and 1.71 times Valeris's age.

    I may note that I am descended from a couple who married in 1822 when the bride, born in 1801, was 21 and the husband, born in 1779, was 43, 22 years older than his wife and about 2.04 times as old. Since I would never have been born without that marriage, I do not consider a great age gap in a married couple to be troubling so long as the younger person is of fully adult age.
     
  15. suarezguy

    suarezguy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    An interesting thing about TUC is that the biggest surprise is kind of how un-surprising it is.

    The reformist Klingon who looks like Lincoln and has a name similar to Gorbachev, yeah he really was a good guy and it's terrible he died, his last wish is the initiative not be destroyed.
    The Klingon general who taunts and then prosecutes Kirk and is played by the most-well known (and least made-up) guest actor Christopher Plummer is the leader of the bad Klingons.
    The Starfleet admiral who most openly and strongly challenges the peace initiative is the one directly trying to ruin it.
    The new Enterprise crew character who is close to Spock and thus the betrayal would be most meaningful is the crew member who is the traitor (I think this is the only one that gets criticized for being too obvious).
    The Romulan ambassador who seems oddly close to the Federation president is also one of the conspirators.

    Seriously, the biggest surprise is probably that the other Klingon military leader, Kerla, wasn't bad in addition to or instead of General Chang.

    I don't think these non-surprises are really weaknesses, though, treasons and the traitors working together are surprising enough and an interesting story even if the subsequent details are predictable, I just think it's weird that Valeris being the traitor being a non-surprise seems to get all the attention and criticism.
     
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