Spoilers So, what do we think of Season 2 now that it's done?

[trekfan_1]

Season 1 was too dark, too violent, (someone dies pretty much every episode) and didn't feel like Star Trek. Had some interesting ideas but it was never realized .

Season 2 felt like a mediocre/subpar Star Trek Voyager level story but at least it felt like Star Trek. I may be in the minority, but I'd take that over season one and most of Star Trek Discovery.

 

[Damian]

I was curious to see how Season 2 was received. It seems, like anything with Star Trek, there is quite a variation in opinions. But there's nothing wrong with that. Some people loved it, some people hated it, and some fell somewhere in the middle.

So my take? I am reluctant to say I hated it because that's such a strong reaction. But I was as close to hating it as I could be without hating it. Like I thought TATV from Enterprise was better. Yes that bad. Season 2 of Picard will be the first ever Star Trek production that I have no desire to buy a hardcopy of. I seriously doubt I will ever watch it again. I almost didn't finish out the season I disliked it so much. It was one of those shows I'd check the time at the bottom periodically to see how much longer I had left to watch an episode. The only reason I finished it was because of my obsessive need to see things through. I hate quitting. But I was close.

There were very few things I liked. I didn't like the Q story overall, but I did like John de Lancie. Despite not liking the overall plot, I can't take anything away from his acting as Q. He hasn't lost a step in the years since we last saw him on Voyager. And I always liked Rios. He was still good here. I'm having a hard time thinking of other things I liked. There were so few.

I disliked the whole time travel thread, the entire premise of season 2. The whole Picard's family background here seems totally inconsistent to me with what we were told in the past. Yes, I know they 'explained' some of that away during the season but to me it seemed contrived. He often 'imagined' his mother as an old woman so that's how he saw her in "Where No One Has Gone Before." I just didn't buy it. And I can't believe that in the 24th century they'd have to lock someone in their room to keep them from harming themselves. That just doesn't wash for me at all. And that whole storyline just overall seemed a needless distraction (from what I admit is an extremely weak storyline to begin with IMO). And we have another 'evil' Dr. Soong. I mean, Christ, do any of them have any scruples at all. I guess there's a certain irony that Data ended up being one of the 'good' guys considering the family history. And I guess his creator Dr. Soong was just eccentric, thankfully he wasn't another 'evil' Dr. Soong. The Borg angle seemed to have nothing to do with the plot, but at the same time was a key part of the plot. And now suddenly the Borg are good guys? (though I don't think it's entirely clear if that affects the entire Collective, or is it like 'Descent' where it's just this small part of the collective). Jurati happened to convince the Borg Queen to switch sides all of a sudden? And finally the last episode of the season made me think that the showrunners suddenly realized they were at the final episode of the season and had to tie things up quickly and I just found it a mess.

I just really had a hard time getting into it at all. By the 3rd episode I was done basically, but I stuck it out. Sadly things didn't improve for me. Though someone did note one positive I can take from it is I've been a Trekkie since just before TVH came out in 1986. Until now I haven't watched a Star Trek that I actively disliked. TATV came close, but that was one episode of an otherwise really good season of Enterprise IMO. Sure there is the occasional dud in a season ("Threshold" LOL). But this is the first time when I've seen an entire season that just totally turned me off. So that person pointed out that was a pretty good run considering that was almost 40 years ago now. Eventually the odds were that was going to happen.

And all that being said, it's not like I'm going to stop watching future shows. I love Strange New Worlds. That is easily my favorite show of the Kurtzman era. Not a huge fan of Lower Decks (it's ok, just meh on that one) but I still plan on watching the upcoming Season 3. I liked Prodigy for the most part and I've liked season 3 and 4 of Discovery so looking forward to the future there as well.

And yes, I'll probably at least check out season 3 of Picard when it starts. Maybe that one will be better, we'll see. So while I really didn't like season 2, I'll see what the future brings.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I just finished the second season a half hour ago, and it was a fucking mess. They didn't seem to have any idea what to do with most of the supporting characters from S1, and there were loads of plotlines that only vaguely related to each other that would be dropped for episodes at a time - Q, Guinan, Adam Soong, the Europa mission, Picard's previously unrevealed traumatic childhood, and they way they neutered Q at the end to make him soft and fuzzy... Ugh. Just awful. I don't have high hopes for S3 now.

Kirk Thatcher's cameo was amusing, at least, and it was nice to see Wil Wheaton again, but the rest was pretty bad.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Terry Matalas just did a 90 minute interview with Inglorious Trekspert, and he sheds some light on why Season 2 ultimately was uneven. What they envisioned for the season and what ulimtely got filmed were very different and scaled back. Most of it had to do with COVID and the challenges that presented. PIC only had two standing sets when production for season two began (La Serena and Picard's study): unlike SNW and DIS which had far more standing sets in place and were able to produce more "normal" seasons. Because of the health restrictions in place in LA, building new sets would take much longer (all the Stargazer scenes were filmed last because it took six months to build those sets) than they had to get filming underway so they had to film most of the season on location which is why the ultimately decided to go with time travel so they didn't have to make LA look like the 25th century. Additionally (those Matalas says it far more diplomatically than I do), CBS was concerned about Stewart's age and the possibility of him getting infected, which limited the number of actors they were allowed to use and why most of the cast were paired off into groups of two for much of early filming (all the group scenes were filmed towards the end of the season).

Okay, this makes a lot of sense. I still think it was a very disappointing season, but at least now I have a much better understanding of why.

 

[lawman]

there were loads of plotlines that only vaguely related to each other that would be dropped for episodes at a time - Q, Guinan, Adam Soong, the Europa mission, Picard's previously unrevealed traumatic childhood

Solid point. Even with the Covid-related filming constraints (as noted), there's still a story being told, and therefore relevant questions about how you break that story, for reasons of pacing, and what you emphasize, for reasons of theme. Some of this season's episodes... suggested quixotic decision making in regard to such questions, let us say.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Solid point. Even with the Covid-related filming constraints (as noted), there's still a story being told, and therefore relevant questions about how you break that story, for reasons of pacing, and what you emphasize, for reasons of theme. Some of this season's episodes... suggested quixotic decision making in regard to such questions, let us say.

Yes. The 2024 stuff should've felt like a suspenseful race against the clock right up until the Europa launch, but instead it felt very meandering. It was also very weird how Q and Guinan both disappeared for episodes at a time.

 

[Tosk]

I completely understand how hard it might have been to structure a story partially based on the restrictions they had. That said, they still fumbled it. Restrictions always play a part, they may explain some things but they don't excuse what was IMO some very poor plotting.

 

[Lord Garth]

Between the TNG Movies and Picard, for a better perspective, I'd rate them:

The Best of Both Worlds (Yes, I saw it in a theater in 2013, and I'm counting it)
First Contact
Picard Season 1
Picard Season 2
Generations
Nemesis
Insurrection

So even though I don't think S2 was as good as S1, I still think PIC Season 2 was better than most of the TNG Movies.

 

[Damian]

Solid point. Even with the Covid-related filming constraints (as noted), there's still a story being told, and therefore relevant questions about how you break that story, for reasons of pacing, and what you emphasize, for reasons of theme. Some of this season's episodes... suggested quixotic decision making in regard to such questions, let us say.

Yes. The 2024 stuff should've felt like a suspenseful race against the clock right up until the Europa launch, but instead it felt very meandering. It was also very weird how Q and Guinan both disappeared for episodes at a time.

I completely understand how hard it might have been to structure a story partially based on the restrictions they had. That said, they still fumbled it. Restrictions always play a part, they may explain some things but they don't excuse what was IMO some very poor plotting.

All good points. There were a lot of side stories going on and they didn't always tie together all that well. And it seemed a plot thread would disappear, then reappear. It didn't help that I strongly disliked the primary plot to begin with. That's never going to be a good starting point.

Honestly the only thing I can point to that I even liked about season 2 was the return of John deLancie. Even though I didn't like the whole storyline of season 2, including Q's story, seeing deLancie again as Q was welcome. He hasn't lost a step. It's really a shame none of TNG movies featured him at all.

 

[Rocinante]

I just finished watching season 2.
While it was entertaining, there was a lot of sloppy writing and mediocre acting.
The time travel concept was especially bad.

Picard shouldn't have let Rios stay in 2024 after all that talk about the butterfly effect.
The Borg Queen was too easily convinced to become a benevolent queen who helps species instead of assimilating them.

I couldn't tell the difference between all the characters Isa Briones played.
They all seemed to be the same character.

It was nice to see Wil/Wesley again, but that scene was shoehorned fan service.
It wasn't necessary and written as an afterthought.

We've know about Guinan being on earth since the 19th century, so her character was already established and didn't seem to change 500 years later in TNG. However, this 21 century version of her didn't act like Guinan. The actress did a good job, but her role was written poorly.

I don't know if we are allowed to discuss the political similarities of General Picard's Eradication Day speech to more recent events, so I will leave out names.

Finally, why was Q dying?
I thought his race was immortal.

 

[fireproof78]

Finally, why was Q dying?
I thought his race was immortal.

Voyager established otherwise.

 

[Danja]

The Borg Queen was too easily convinced to become a benevolent queen who helps species instead of assimilating them.

I'm hoping this is a setup to a possible Seven spinoff (where Borgati and The Queen of The Collective -- PLEASE bring back Annie Wersching -- butt heads).

Spoiler

Akiva Goldsman has mentioned Alison Pill coming back at a later point.

 

[MrPicard]

I keep thinking of something interesting that Matalas has started to mention in his interviews by now if you listen closely - and that’s the fact that apparently the studio had a rather huge influence on the actual plot of season 2. He even said so, he made a remark about how fans don’t realize just HOW much the studio interferes. From what I could deduce from his remarks the whole Eugenics Wars thing that retconned stuff was the studio saying that Trek’s future needs to be our future and Trek should not take place in a timeline different from ours because Trek needs to give us hope and that’s what the franchise is supposed to put emphasis on, regardless of what was said before. Apparently that’s the way the studio wanted it.

He also made an off-handed remark about how the original plan for season 2 was for Laris to also have a Confederation universe counterpart that, like the others, remembers that this isn’t how things are supposed to be and then goes back in time with them to fix it. But the studio apparently said no to that as well. (Matalas didn’t elaborate on why tho.) So the whole Not!Laris storyline might also have been a result of studio interference.

I guess what I’m saying is that with this show there seems to be a LOT of stuff going on behind the scenes that the fandom isn’t being told just yet (I’m sure we will get the whole story in time). Of course it’s almost a trademark by now that Trek shows are notoriously bumpy to make, but this one seems to be particularly bumpy…

 

[Lord Garth]

From what I could deduce from his remarks the whole Eugenics Wars thing that retconned stuff was the studio saying that Trek’s future needs to be our future and Trek should not take place in a timeline different from ours because Trek needs to give us hope and that’s what the franchise is supposed to put emphasis on, regardless of what was said before. Apparently that’s the way the studio wanted it.

To be very brutally honest, I agree with the studio here. What got me into Star Trek in the first place was watching TVH, where the crew goes back to 1986, and they're from The Future. I want to suspend my disbelief and, at least when I'm watching, think Star Trek is intended to be The Future. We're never going to live to see it, so why not?

When I read comics, up until 2011, I was a fan of DC. (They lost me with Flashpoint and I never went back.) Earth 2, Earth 1, Post-Crisis, Post-Zero Hour... So it's not like I'm a stranger to the concept of creators making adjustments as they go along.

 

[Danja]

I keep thinking of something interesting that Matalas has started to mention in his interviews by now if you listen closely - and that’s the fact that apparently the studio had a rather huge influence on the actual plot of season 2. He even said so, he made a remark about how fans don’t realize just HOW much the studio interferes.

They're not potted plants.

 

[MrPicard]

He’s kinda right tho, I mostly see fans blaming the writers or Sir Patrick for whatever plot point they dislike, but the studio rarely gets mentioned even though they are the ones who have the final say on every single storyline; if they don’t like something it gets scrapped and the writers have to come up with something else and/or go along with the direction the studio wants for things to move in. A lot of fans seems to somehow ignore this little fact. It isn’t always the writers. Sometimes it’s “good old” studio interference that overrides whatever ideas the writers might have had. Now, I’m not saying the writers are always completely blameless, of course, but I do think the studio often gets forgotten in the whole “who is to blame when things go wrong plot-wise” argument.

And I can also see why CBS pushed for the Eugenics Wars thing to be retconned (doesn’t mean I like retconning it tho, the fan fic writer in me thinks there are other, more clever ways around this than simply retconning it). They do want to push Trek as a franchise that tells us what our future will be like if we learn how to work together, and a storyline that contradicts this and actively establishes that Trek’s timeline is a different one than ours would “cheapen” that message. It’s no wonder that, from the marketing perspective of the studio, the order was “make the Trek future our future, we don’t care how much retconning this will take”.

 

[Reanok]

Danja when did Akiva Goldsman mention wanting Allison Pill returning for a later Star Trek show again.

 

[Danja]

Danja when did Akiva Goldsman mention wanting Allison Pill returning for a later Star Trek show again.

Ask him:

Akiva Goldsman has already hinted Jurati is likely to reappear at some point down the road.

 

[Reanok]

okay I found some of his posts here.Including his comments about Alison Pill. I'd like to see her return as Juratti /Borg Queen with Annie Werching again too.

 

[lawman]

keep thinking of something interesting that Matalas has started to mention in his interviews by now if you listen closely - and that’s the fact that apparently the studio had a rather huge influence on the actual plot of season 2. He even said so, he made a remark about how fans don’t realize just HOW much the studio interferes. From what I could deduce from his remarks the whole Eugenics Wars thing that retconned stuff was the studio saying that Trek’s future needs to be our future and Trek should not take place in a timeline different from ours because Trek needs to give us hope and that’s what the franchise is supposed to put emphasis on...

...They do want to push Trek as a franchise that tells us what our future will be like if we learn how to work together, and a storyline that contradicts this and actively establishes that Trek’s timeline is a different one than ours would “cheapen” that message. It’s no wonder that, from the marketing perspective of the studio, the order was “make the Trek future our future, we don’t care how much retconning this will take”.

I like the idea of Trek as a picture of an inspiring future. It doesn't need to be "our future" to be inspiring, though, just "close enough" to be an example of what humanity could accomplish. There's a fine but important dividing line between "will be like" and "could be like."

(Indeed, it's clearly not "our future," in story terms, nor has ever really pretended to be. Heck, Picard S2 was self-evidently not set in our present. Unless there's a manned interplanetary space program going on that I missed a memo about?... So whatever the studio might've wanted, it didn't supersede that key element at the center of the story.)

Anyhoo, either way, IMHO I'd say that the inspiring message got cheapened a long time ago, roughly around when First Contact came out in 1996. That's when Trek shifted from being an example of how humanity could solve its own problems and overcome its weaknesses, to a story of how humanity would be doomed but for one iconoclastic inventor of impossible technology and a fortuitous encounter with benevolent aliens. It's hard to walk back a thematic pivot like that.

We may be arguing over nothing, though. You're inferring an awful lot of things here, after all... starting from "if you listen closely" to "from what I could deduce," by the end you're putting a provocative but imagined studio "order" in quotation marks. And who exactly is "the studio" here, anyway? Alex Kurtzman? Some executive cabal at Secret Hideout? Some particular executive at CBS Television? Just how heavily would any of them be inclined to impose on Terry Matalas without risking losing (yet another) showrunner? As noted, whoever the PTB are evidently didn't impose the kind of story constraints you describe on PIC. Whatever Matalas alluded to remains ambiguous.