So this is why we have red lightsabers

[Kor]

To me, any detailed technical reasoning on the difference in lightsaber blade colors is just behind-the-scenes, fanboyish, nit-picky minutiae that has nothing to do with the actual story. Bad characters have red sabers, and good characters don't. That's all.

Kor

 

[Ithekro]

And for the most part, on television and film, that has been the case. Only in novels do are the color details expanded on at all, and in this case it was simply to provide an origin to Ahsoka's white blades (which were unusual). Unusual generally warrants a story or legend.

 

[fireproof78]

An oddity that has not been covered is the general meaning of the colors in the present canon and the older canon and EU materials had their own idea of what blade colors meant. At first the blades were going to all be white. Than they made them blue and red in post. Red for the bad guy and blue for the good guys. That location shooting changed Luke's blade to green. Than decades later Windu gets a purple blade and yellow blades get seen from time to time...that we get white blades again. There was little reasoning given and the Jedi Guardian, Councilor, and Sentinel, half went away.

Things we know presently. The Jedi Temple Guards used yellow lightsaber staffs. Mace Windu had a purple lightsaber which so far has been fairly unique. All the known dark siders use red blades, and it seems the reusing one of these crystals in a new lightsaber for a light sider will turn the blade white.

Why is Windu's blade purple? The old logic stems from the idea of combining colors in light, blue + red = purple. Light side (blue) + Dark side (red) equals a balanced aggressive combat style (purple). This was how it is usually taken. There is another angle though. Taking the colors in the light spectrum. Red is on one end and blue in on the other...however purple is even farther away from red than blue. Could Windu be even farthing into the light side than those who use blue blades? Are those that use green blades tapping into the dark side slightly? Would the yellow blades be the balance between the two as a sign of those that serve the balancing scale of justice. That doesn't explain Anakin's blue blade, nor Yoda's green blade.

Perhaps it is also a state of mind while making said lightsaber. Ahsoka's first blade is green, but her second is almost yellow after she'd been training under Anakin and fought a bunch in the Clone Wars. Luke's is green after he's been tempted by the dark side and uses some darker powers (force choke for instance). We have no idea how old Yoda's saber is. Master Sinube's blade could be white or it might be a very pale blue (also a nice walking stick).

But there is also the weaponized kyber crystals that seem to put out green beams. Maybe that will be touch on with Rogue One or a tie in related to it.

I had heard that the "Ventral Cannons" from TFA were actually using Kyber crystals as part of their assembly.

 

[Reverend]

I could see that as a possibility, though it begs the question as to what made Mace's crystal purple. Also, why would Anakin choose that particular crystal? Anakin strikes me as the kind of person of forging his own connection with something unique, not accepting hand-me-downs.

Perhaps not Anakin, but I think Darth Vader wouldn't be above claiming a trophy, especially if it can serve as a reminder of a particularly painful moment in his life. This is just me speculating though, he could just as easily taken it from one of the thousands that were strewn about the floor of the temple, or kept in the vaults? Have they ever mentioned what happens to a Jedi's weapon when they die? I don't think they're incinerated with the body since 1) that's a very good way to blow up your incinerator and 2) it probably wouldn't destroy the crystal. So I'm assuming they have a vault for such things.

Anyway, remember that with the Sith, it's not a sympathetic bond, but a forced and unnatural one. An act of dominance and enslavement, not co-operation and empathy. Vader wouldn't be forming a bond with a hand-me-down he'd be enslaving the weapon of a slain enemy.

As for the meaning of Mace's blade's colour, again that's still a mystery. All we know is that it's a rarity, but still a lightsider trait. Put simply, we currently know that the non-red colours have meaning, but not what the specific meaning of each colour may be. Maybe the Jedi themselves don't even know. There could be volumes of texts filled with competing ideas that were never definitively proven.

But if you want to impose some science on it: consider that out perception of colour is just an expression of the frequency of visible EM waves. High frequency translates as blue, low frequency as red. So a blade with a higher frequency would be purple/violet, slightly less and you're into the blue part of the spectrum, followed by green then yellow and finally red at the lower frequencies. So perhaps it's just a matter of the crystals that have a stronger bond transfer energy more efficiency and at higher frequencies. This purple is rare since it's the most difficult to achieve while the red ones are all less efficient because the bond if being forced.

Personally, I think that's a fairly dry way to look at it and prefer that it's just a reflection of the spirit of a person and the exact meaning is just as impossible to define as "what colour is time?" Some things are just physically beyond our ability to perceive, let alone comprehend.

This always amuses me-in real life I am expected to be skeptical of my religious upbringing. But, in a story I have to accept it?

Well you don't *have* to accept anything, but you should recognise the trope and understand this is exactly the kind of thing that Star Wars has always drawn from.

If this is the answer, than "Red=bad" and Blue/green/purple=good" is just as valid.

I think it's more a case of "Red=corruption and dominance" and "everything else=diversity and sympathy".

I don't mind asking questions. I love it, I love discussion, but I also get frustrated when I'm told "This is how it is-accept it." Well, it's a fictional world that I have engaged with since I was 8. I don't blindly accept anything now. So, yes, I have questions, and if I find answers lacking, then I'll question them further.

Well you're told in the context of this story that "the force is real". It's the basic conceit of the universe and you really do kinda have to accept it to be able to buy into the narrative. This is simply an extension of that: "The force can speak through crystals."

The implication that Luke's ability to forge a connection with a crystal makes him more powerful is something I don't see.

It demonstrates a much higher degree of ability in the force. It's not just a matter of following a circuit diagram, he has to feel what it is going to be. There's an element of self reflection and meditation to the whole process, which is a recurring theme in Jedi philosophy: the trial of spirit, facing the mirror. We see it again and again and again and again and again and again and ag....well, you get the idea.

Really, you'd get a better sense of this if you just read the Ahsoka novel. She spends about half a chapter interior monologuing about the whole process.

That's a point I had not considered, and certainly is an interesting facet to the construction. I'll grant that.

However, I'll still dispute that the crystal changing color in response to the contructor is unnecessary.

Is necessity the only criteria by which we judge such things? Was it really necessary for the Jedi to have laserswords at all? Why not actual swords? Why not lasers? Did the Millennium Falcon really have to look like an angry hamburger? Nope, but it looks cool!

In the case of the blade colours, it adds meaning on top of mere aesthetics. To me, that in itself adds value to the world building.

First of all, if the weapon is connected to the user, how do they keep losing their weapons? No, I'm not talking physics of combat or what have you, but why is a trope of them constantly losing it if they are connected to it in a way that is very unique?

Well it may make them better connected to their weapon, but it doesn't make them infallible. If a saber falls into a volcano or something, they may still be able to sense the crystal down there, but bugger going in there to get it! Wiser to just go back to Iilum for a replacement.

Still, just because a crystal calls to a Jedi, doesn't mean it's the *only* one for them in all of time and space. Just the only one for them then and there. This is how Ahsoka was able to go back to Iilum her second time when she wanted to build her second lightsaber. It's not like the old one got jealous or anything.

I think this works with Luke who, in ROTJ, especially, he is able to call his saber to him even after discarding it or falling. In the PT, well, it's Anakin-need I say more?

Luke is also able to call a blaster to his hand right out of one of Jabba's guards' holster. Moving things with their brains is a thing Jedi can do.

Secondly, this is a small bit of lore that ends up putting way to much emphasis on the lightsaber and not on the Force. The Force is greater than the saber not the other way around. Now, I already see the counterargument that the saber color will reflect the fact that a Jedi was able to construct a saber and connect with the crystal in a meaningful way, which is then reflected in the color of the blade. But, why is a lightsaber the focus? Why not a connection with the Force?

The one is an expression of the other. Those are not mutually exclusive concepts.

As a follow up, I don't really have a solid example. I think that this bit of lore focuses too much on the saber, and adds to the mysticism in a way that is unnecessary. However, I am looking forward to your reply

Well what good are an order of kung-fu zen wizard monks if their weapons aren't at least a *little* bit mystical, Hmm?

 

[Ithekro]

I had heard that the "Ventral Cannons" from TFA were actually using Kyber crystals as part of their assembly.

Yes I had heard that as well. Combined with both pirates and arms deals having interesting in kyber crystals during the Clone Wars, and rare giant crystals being used in superweapons, leads one to believe there is a weaponizing process that is hopefully different from a Jedi's communing with the Force through the crystal while constructing their lightsaber.

 

[Kor]

I am reminded of Luke's saber calling to Rey through "The Force" in TFA. While the EU, cartoons, etc. had holocrons that could only be accessed by a "Force" user, as well as the explanation of kybur crystals being connected with "The Force," I think that was the first time in the live action movies that an inanimate, inorganic object was depicted as having such a connection. And perhaps it draws upon old mythic tropes of magical weapons. Interesting.

Kor

 

[Reverend]

I am reminded of Luke's saber calling to Rey through "The Force" in TFA. While the EU, cartoons, etc. had holocrons that could only be accessed by a "Force" user, as well as the explanation of kybur crystals being connected with "The Force," I think that was the first time in the live action movies that an inanimate, inorganic object was depicted as having such a connection. And perhaps it draws upon old mythic tropes of magical weapons. Interesting.

Kor

Precisely. If holocrons can somehow tell that the one trying to open it is a light or dark side user then there must be a physical mechanism in there that somehow interfaces with the force. Tying that into the lightsabers and the building ritual not only makes sense, it enhances the lore.

 

[Ithekro]

Before they had connections with locations. The cave under the tree were Luke gets his vision for example was suppose to be strong in the Dark Side. Yoda said the Force was everywhere.

I seem to recall a few Jedi had lightsabers that could only be turned on using the Force. This would prevent some random person picking up their weapon and using it. Though I don't recall who this was right at this moment. However it would also force the Jedi to focus more on the blade than their surroundings as they had to keep the Forces flowing to the weapon to keep the blade active, and thus would likely tire the user out quicker than if they just used an activation switch.

 

[Set Harth]

I also get frustrated when I'm told "This is how it is-accept it."

Finding out Darth Vader was Luke's father must have been difficult.

 

[Reverend]

Before they had connections with locations. The cave under the tree were Luke gets his vision for example was suppose to be strong in the Dark Side. Yoda said the Force was everywhere.

There may be more to that cave then it appears. If you look closely, there are carved steps and what looks like a stone arc/doorway in there. It's ambiguous whether or not that's physically there, but if it is part of the vision. Is it is, then it could be some ancient (not necessarily Sith) dark side temple buried under all that slime and vegetation.

Qui Gon did say Dagobah was one of the purest places in the galaxy, a wellspring of the force. There's also been mention that the Temple on Coruscant is built on just such a site and that they're not the first.
If there are many such places in the galaxy, then it would make sense that force users would seek them out and build their temples where the force is strongest.
We've also seen both the Sith Temple on Malachor and the old Jedi temple on Lothal respond to the presence of force users, with various mechanisms that only force users can operation.
More evidence that kyber crystals could have uses other than as weapons.

I seem to recall a few Jedi had lightsabers that could only be turned on using the Force. This would prevent some random person picking up their weapon and using it. Though I don't recall who this was right at this moment. However it would also force the Jedi to focus more on the blade than their surroundings as they had to keep the Forces flowing to the weapon to keep the blade active, and thus would likely tire the user out quicker than if they just used an activation switch.

IIRC those were called "forcesabers" and they the precursors of what the Jedi ended up using, created by the Rakatta's Infinite Empire. Also, I think they only worked by drawing on the dark side, used mostly by their hunter slaves.

 

[Kahless the Unforgettable]

I seem to recall a few Jedi had lightsabers that could only be turned on using the Force. This would prevent some random person picking up their weapon and using it. Though I don't recall who this was right at this moment. However it would also force the Jedi to focus more on the blade than their surroundings as they had to keep the Forces flowing to the weapon to keep the blade active, and thus would likely tire the user out quicker than if they just used an activation switch.

Those were physical switches that required telekinesis to manipulate, that's all.

I actually came up with a better way to describe how absurd a notion this crystal thing is, especially as it relates to the counterpoint about how "non-conformist" Sith are. Practically every Sith ever has worn black. Is it a fashion choice because it looks cool? Is it symbolic of their alignment to the dark side? Is it a religious requirement? Or is the "much more sensible" reason that their dark sidedness seeps out and dyes their clothes black (or even more plausibly, their tailors must have been dark-side users)? Surely it must be that last one; there can be no other reason to explain why Sith wear black, right?

Sure, tons of other people wear black, too. Even non-Sith and non-Jedi. But clearly -- quite clearly -- their tailors had to be evil Sith lords as there's no other plausible reason to wear black. Or for black clothing to exist at all with those evil tailors bleeding their dark force into their products. And as for anyone else not wearing black? Well, obviously their tailors were Jedi, especially those wearing green and blue.

If that sounds absurd, you now know why so many other people are saying the crystal thing is absurd.

 

[Ithekro]

Finding out Darth Vader was Luke's father must have been difficult.

Back in 1981 and 1982....it was. The wait for the third film was almost agony, and I was only five years old.

Practically every Sith ever has worn black. Is it a fashion choice because it looks cool?

This would be a good counter to the crystal argument if it was true. Unfortunately it is not. While Darth Vader and Darth Maul seem to sport black about all the time, and Count Dooku usually has a black and brown thing going on, his nightwear is blue. Palpatine's been know to wear red robes instead of black while being Sithy. Ventress wears dark blues and greys, as well as sometimes reds, purples, or gold. Plus there are Jedi that wear black. Luminara Unduli for example. Luke Skywalker for another.

 

[fireproof78]

Apologies to all for this wall of text. I leave for an hour and the discussion is off and running

Perhaps not Anakin, but I think Darth Vader wouldn't be above claiming a trophy, especially if it can serve as a reminder of a particularly painful moment in his life. This is just me speculating though, he could just as easily taken it from one of the thousands that were strewn about the floor of the temple, or kept in the vaults? Have they ever mentioned what happens to a Jedi's weapon when they die? I don't think they're incinerated with the body since 1) that's a very good way to blow up your incinerator and 2) it probably wouldn't destroy the crystal. So I'm assuming they have a vault for such things.

Anyway, remember that with the Sith, it's not a sympathetic bond, but a forced and unnatural one. An act of dominance and enslavement, not co-operation and empathy. Vader wouldn't be forming a bond with a hand-me-down he'd be enslaving the weapon of a slain enemy.

Again, a fair point, though I find it an odd choice. I personally think Palpatine had a selection of crystals, already dominated (in the new lore-in the old lore, manufactured) for construction of sabers by acolytes and apprentices.

As for the meaning of Mace's blade's colour, again that's still a mystery. All we know is that it's a rarity, but still a lightsider trait. Put simply, we currently know that the non-red colours have meaning, but not what the specific meaning of each colour may be. Maybe the Jedi themselves don't even know. There could be volumes of texts filled with competing ideas that were never definitively proven.

This also could be, though (and again) it begs the question of why the Jedi consistently use blue or green.

But if you want to impose some science on it: consider that out perception of colour is just an expression of the frequency of visible EM waves. High frequency translates as blue, low frequency as red. So a blade with a higher frequency would be purple/violet, slightly less and you're into the blue part of the spectrum, followed by green then yellow and finally red at the lower frequencies. So perhaps it's just a matter of the crystals that have a stronger bond transfer energy more efficiency and at higher frequencies. This purple is rare since it's the most difficult to achieve while the red ones are all less efficient because the bond if being forced.

Personally, I think that's a fairly dry way to look at it and prefer that it's just a reflection of the spirit of a person and the exact meaning is just as impossible to define as "what colour is time?" Some things are just physically beyond our ability to perceive, let alone comprehend.

Which is why it may not add to the lore.

Also, time is not a color. Time is a circle. That is why clocks are round

Well you don't *have* to accept anything, but you should recognise the trope and understand this is exactly the kind of thing that Star Wars has always drawn from.

I am aware and recognize the tropes that Star Wars is built upon.

I think it's more a case of "Red=corruption and dominance" and "everything else=diversity and sympathy".

So, still arbitrary.

Well you're told in the context of this story that "the force is real". It's the basic conceit of the universe and you really do kinda have to accept it to be able to buy into the narrative. This is simply an extension of that: "The force can speak through crystals."

I can accept the Force, for the most part. The Force can speak through crystals is a new part of the lore that I find odd.

It demonstrates a much higher degree of ability in the force. It's not just a matter of following a circuit diagram, he has to feel what it is going to be. There's an element of self reflection and meditation to the whole process, which is a recurring theme in Jedi philosophy: the trial of spirit, facing the mirror. We see it again and again and again and again and again and again and ag....well, you get the idea.

That really doesn't mean that the crystal needs to change color. But, that's semantics, I think

Really, you'd get a better sense of this if you just read the Ahsoka novel. She spends about half a chapter interior monologuing about the whole process.

Shameless promotion on your part I see. Your check must be in the mail

Is necessity the only criteria by which we judge such things? Was it really necessary for the Jedi to have laserswords at all? Why not actual swords? Why not lasers? Did the Millennium Falcon really have to look like an angry hamburger? Nope, but it looks cool!

In the case of the blade colours, it adds meaning on top of mere aesthetics. To me, that in itself adds value to the world building.

I think the meaning it adds is self-limiting.

Also, the Millennium Falcon's look is designed as a cargo hauler.

Well it may make them better connected to their weapon, but it doesn't make them infallible. If a saber falls into a volcano or something, they may still be able to sense the crystal down there, but bugger going in there to get it! Wiser to just go back to Iilum for a replacement.

Again, a fair point.

Still, just because a crystal calls to a Jedi, doesn't mean it's the *only* one for them in all of time and space. Just the only one for them then and there. This is how Ahsoka was able to go back to Iilum her second time when she wanted to build her second lightsaber. It's not like the old one got jealous or anything.

Hey, the lore is expanding. You never know.

Luke is also able to call a blaster to his hand right out of one of Jabba's guards' holster. Moving things with their brains is a thing Jedi can do.

Fair point.

The one is an expression of the other. Those are not mutually exclusive concepts.

No, but the focus is becoming more on the weapon and not on the Force.

Well what good are an order of kung-fu zen wizard monks if their weapons aren't at least a *little* bit mystical, Hmm?

Mystical does not mean "I can change its color." It means they can kill you with their brains, and such.

Yes I had heard that as well. Combined with both pirates and arms deals having interesting in kyber crystals during the Clone Wars, and rare giant crystals being used in superweapons, leads one to believe there is a weaponizing process that is hopefully different from a Jedi's communing with the Force through the crystal while constructing their lightsaber.

I would hope so. I would imagine that the Jedi's means of building a saber would be different than construction of a lightfoil, or the superweapons.

Precisely. If holocrons can somehow tell that the one trying to open it is a light or dark side user then there must be a physical mechanism in there that somehow interfaces with the force. Tying that into the lightsabers and the building ritual not only makes sense, it enhances the lore.

Hmm, kind of like moon runes from "The Hobbit."

Before they had connections with locations. The cave under the tree were Luke gets his vision for example was suppose to be strong in the Dark Side. Yoda said the Force was everywhere.

I seem to recall a few Jedi had lightsabers that could only be turned on using the Force. This would prevent some random person picking up their weapon and using it. Though I don't recall who this was right at this moment. However it would also force the Jedi to focus more on the blade than their surroundings as they had to keep the Forces flowing to the weapon to keep the blade active, and thus would likely tire the user out quicker than if they just used an activation switch.

I heard connections to location and people could be called a "vergence in the Force."

Finding out Darth Vader was Luke's father must have been difficult.

Not really. I saw the OT in reverse order. My dad wasn't overly worried about me watching them in a specific order, so I saw ROTJ, ESB and then ANH. And my reaction to Vader's revelation in ESB, if watching in order, is similar to James Earl Jones' in reading the script: "He's lying."

 

[Set Harth]

You saw ROTJ before TESB but if watching in order your reaction to the reveal is "he's lying"?

 

[Kahless the Unforgettable]

This would be a good counter to the crystal argument if it was true. Unfortunately it is not. While Darth Vader and Darth Maul seem to sport black about all the time, and Count Dooku usually has a black and brown thing going on, his nightwear is blue. Palpatine's been know to wear red robes instead of black while being Sithy. Ventress wears dark blues and greys, as well as sometimes reds, purples, or gold. Plus there are Jedi that wear black. Luminara Unduli for example. Luke Skywalker for another.

Oh, you mean like how all Sith don't use red sabers?

 

[fireproof78]

You saw ROTJ before TESB but if watching in order your reaction to the reveal is "he's lying"?

If I watch them in order and I'm immersed in the story, yes that is my reaction.

My initial reaction is, "Well, that's weird. I guess that's why they all were in black then."

I was 8.

What I wrote was:

Not really. I saw the OT in reverse order. My dad wasn't overly worried about me watching them in a specific order, so I saw ROTJ, ESB and then ANH. And my reaction to Vader's revelation in ESB, if watching in order, is similar to James Earl Jones' in reading the script: "He's lying."

Hope that clears things up

 

[Kor]

There are certain belief systems that ascribe mystical qualities to crystals. Having "The Force" actually interact with certain crystals wouldn't be too far removed from that kind of thing. The Star Wars universe is fantastic, after all.

Kor

 

[Venardhi]

I think the schism here is that some people like the mythic simplicity of the OT and some prefer the PT and newEU tendency towards adding more and more layers of rules and complexity. The "Legends" EU tended towards the same direction after a while and I found it just as off-putting.

I for one don't need or want a Force that has a will and may or may not create messiahs to fulfill it. Every addition of midichlorians and kyber crystals just makes me less and less interested in the universe as a whole. We are not this crude matter! The introduction of more and more physical/material phenomena slowly chips away at the original awesome ethereal power of the Force.

The Force is an energy field that surrounds us and binds us. A lightsaber is an elegant weapon for a more civilized age. Bing bang boom. We're off to the battle between good and evil.

It is just an entirely different perspective on the franchise and on storytelling as a whole and going back and forth isn't going to convince anyone. I'm having fun reading both sides' attempts to try though.

 

[Set Harth]

My initial reaction is, "Well, that's weird. I guess that's why they all were black then."

Are you saying that because James Earl Jones was playing Mark Hamill's dad it means that Luke was really black?

There are certain belief systems that ascribe mystical qualities to crystals. Having "The Force" actually interact with certain crystals wouldn't be too far removed from that kind of thing.

What if you had some kind of crystalline life form, a crystal that was in some sense alive? I had thought about writing a fanfic in the 90s that would have involved such a thing, and eventually a book came out that used a similar idea.

 

[Reverend]

Again, a fair point, though I find it an odd choice. I personally think Palpatine had a selection of crystals, already dominated (in the new lore-in the old lore, manufactured) for construction of sabers by acolytes and apprentices.

He almost certainly has a whole stockpile of the things, it's just that Vader wouldn't need it for his own saber.

Even if we go with the old EU version where it's cooked up in a forge, then any old muppet with the right seed material can make one. Shouldn't be too hard for a Lord of the Sith to get his hands on an oven.

This also could be, though (and again) it begs the question of why the Jedi consistently use blue or green.

It's not like they're choosing the colour themselves. It's just what the crystals do when they bond with Jedi. It's a side effect of what must be a molecular shift in the crystal lattice, not an act of will.

So, still arbitrary.

Not in a meta-textual sense. Red is often associated with danger, anger and violence, while blues and greens are generally considered harmonious, soothing colours. It's thematically consistent.

I can accept the Force, for the most part. The Force can speak through crystals is a new part of the lore that I find odd.

But remotely speaking through brain matter is not even a little odd? Or moving stuff around, or seeing the future or entirely decorporealising?

That really doesn't mean that the crystal needs to change color. But, that's semantics, I think

Well in this instance the point is moot because it's an entirely different crystal than the one before. We still don't know where he got it from.

Shameless promotion on your part I see. Your check must be in the mail

Really, it just makes more sense in context and I can't be arsed (and probably shouldn't because: copyright) to transcribe half a chapter's worth of prose that will explain it all.

I think the meaning it adds is self-limiting.

Also, the Millennium Falcon's look is designed as a cargo hauler.

Well it wasn't supposed to. Lucas specifically asked for a hamburger ship.

Mystical does not mean "I can change its color." It means they can kill you with their brains, and such

One better: "I can kill you with the sword I made with my brain!"

I for one don't need or want a Force that has a will and may or may not create messiahs to fulfill it.

"You mean it controls your actions?"
"Partially, but it also obeys your commands."
Yup, no indication in the OT that the force had a mind of it's own....
Also: just because the PT Jedi believed something, doesn't make it true. They're supposed to be a failing order that's become dogmatic and lost sight of some of the fundamental wisdoms. Indeed, they were show to be fallible, misinformed and misguided at almost every turn.