So this is why we have red lightsabers

[C.E. Evans]

I disagree with that. There's nothing remotely wrong with the idea that Sith simply favor red or just have some ancient connection to the color. Keeps things simple and doesn't involve an "out there" explanation that ultimately ends up with the same result: Sith tend to have red lightsabers.

Heck, the old idea that Sith just used synthetic crystals was better than what they just came up with now.

 

[Reverend]

Tendencies generally require outliers. There are none in this case. Not one dark side user is ever seen wielding a saber of their own construction (post fall) that isn't red. Maul, Sidious, Tyranus, Vader and every single Inquisitor to date. All of them red-blades. That's not a tendency, it's a uniformity. A 100% track record.
And yes "because they like the colour" is a simpler explanation, it's also a very shallow, boring and by definition, superficial one. When is that *ever* a preferable option in storytelling?

Also consider how much Star Wars has always drawn from mythic tropes. Magical swords or other weapons that are made for, or respond to their rightful bearers is one repeated in many cultures. As are blades that have a deep spiritual connection to those that wield them and is connected with very powerful and evocative imagery.
Did you think the similarity between these two scenes and this was purely aesthetic or coincidental? It was neither. They know exactly where they're drawing from.

It amazes me that people will harrumph and complain when they feel something in Star Wars is being "explained with too much science!" and "detracting from the magic and spiritual nature of the force" and then turn around and complain when they make lightsaber -- a hitherto scientifically based "laser sword" -- and give it a spiritual element. You can't have it both ways!

 

[Kahless the Unforgettable]

Tendencies generally require outliers. There are none in this case. Not one dark side user is ever seen wielding a saber of their own construction (post fall) that isn't red.

Except for the ones that have.

Maul, Sidious, Tyranus, Vader and every single Inquisitor to date.

Great sample size there. And I love how, despite expanding outside the movies, you completely ignore every example of a Sith who uses colors other than red, too.

All of them red-blades. That's not a tendency, it's a uniformity. A 100% track record.

BZZT, wrong. Well, if you actually look at the full sample size and not the ones you cherry-picked.

Also consider how much Star Wars has always drawn from mythic tropes. Magical swords or other weapons that are made for, or respond to their rightful bearers is one repeated in many cultures.

Please name a few. I can't think of very many examples myself. Lots of examples the other way, where the magical weapon bends the wielder to their will or will only respond if the wielder behaves appropriately to the weapon's will (and that includes all the big names as far as magical weapons are concerned, like Mjolnir and Excalibur).

As for your examples, really? Luke using telekinesis to pull his saber to him is the "magical weapon bending to his will?" LOL And Rey showing just how strong hers is is another example? And then Excalibur ONLY allowing itself to be pulled free because Arthur had the right stuff -- something the SWORD judged from him -- is yet another example? Cause, I hate to break it to you, none of those are backing you up. At all.

It amazes me that people will harrumph and complain when they feel something in Star Wars is being "explained with too much science!" and "detracting from the magic and spiritual nature of the force" and then turn around and complain when they make lightsaber -- a hitherto scientifically based "laser sword" -- and give it a spiritual element. You can't have it both ways!

You can, actually. Some things need work and explanation. Others don't. I guess next you'll be advocating that any starship a Jedi uses must have some mystical explanation for how they're able to fly it, because you know... fuck technology. They're wizards, dammit! Ditto for their holocomms and all the other tech they use. Sure, non-Jedi use that tech, too, but... oh wait, non-Jedi use lightsabers, too. Darn, almost had a counter for you there.

 

[C.E. Evans]

And yes "because they like the colour" is a simpler explanation, it's also a very shallow, boring and by definition, superficial one. When is that *ever* a preferable option in storytelling?

Good thing it's not anything you just described. On the other hand, it's a "no b.s." idea that doesn't get in the way of good storytelling.

 

[Ithekro]

Great sample size there. And I love how, despite expanding outside the movies, you completely ignore every example of a Sith who uses colors other than red, too.

Which if I recall in current canon are exactly zero. We have not seen any Sith or dark side user using a non-red lightsaber that they built post-fall to the dark side. We sometimes see them use some else's lightsaber they took, borrowed, or stole, or one they built prior to their fall to the dark side, but never one they built themselves after they fell to the Dark Side that is another color than red.

 

[Kahless the Unforgettable]

Which if I recall in current canon are exactly zero. We have not seen any Sith or dark side user using a non-red lightsaber that they built post-fall to the dark side. We sometimes see them use some else's lightsaber they took, borrowed, or stole, or one they built prior to their fall to the dark side, but never one they built themselves after they fell to the Dark Side that is another color than red.

I pointed to several earlier in the thread, with Exar Kun being the primary example; it's even stated that he followed a Sith holocron when crafting his double-bladed BLUE lightsaber. It even remained that color after boosted his power with a Sith amulet.

And just as a side note, this little tidbit actually shows that it's a completely voluntary choice by Sith to use red over other colors. Revan chose to change the crystals in a lightsaber he already possessed prior to his fall (be sure to remember that when reading the next paragraph), while still keeping his other one purple.

Also, why exactly does the 'bleeding' only happen when you're crafting the saber again? That part doesn't make any sense whatsoever. You can use it to your hearts content, "bond" with it to your hearts content, but you only 'bleed' it on the same day you first slot the crystal in? And only if you made the saber yourself? Because... uh... reasons? Okay... But hey, if that makes it easier for you to rationalize that this isn't a stupid addition to the franchise, all the more power to you. It's still a stupid addition to the franchise, though. Stupid, contrary to the established lore, and just flat out unnecessary; the perfect trifecta of pointlessness.

 

[Ithekro]

Note: I said "current canon". Exar Kun and Revan are not presently in the canon. I am quite aware of them and any number of other Sith from the Dark Horse Comic, and older EU novels.

 

[fireproof78]

Which if I recall in current canon are exactly zero. We have not seen any Sith or dark side user using a non-red lightsaber that they built post-fall to the dark side. We sometimes see them use some else's lightsaber they took, borrowed, or stole, or one they built prior to their fall to the dark side, but never one they built themselves after they fell to the Dark Side that is another color than red.

Well, with current canon, all the Dark Side users and Sith Lords originate from Sidious and Plagueis. So, it would stand to reason that the crystals may be produced by or given to their disciples by Sidious, reflecting their dependency upon him.

 

[Reverend]

Good thing it's not anything you just described.

If all you can do is mindlessly gainsay, they're you're not exactly presenting a terribly compelling argument.

On the other hand, it's a "no b.s." idea that doesn't get in the way of good storytelling.

And how *exactly* do you propose the new take is "getting in the way of good storytelling"?

 

[Kahless the Unforgettable]

Note: I said "current canon". Exar Kun and Revan are not presently in the canon. I am quite aware of them and any number of other Sith from the Dark Horse Comic, and older EU novels.

Convenient. Regardless, still waiting an answer to the actual question:

]Also, why exactly does the 'bleeding' only happen when you're crafting the saber again? That part doesn't make any sense whatsoever. You can use it to your hearts content, "bond" with it to your hearts content, but you only 'bleed' it on the same day you first slot the crystal in? And only if you made the saber yourself? Because... uh... reasons?

 

[Ithekro]

Because as of "The Gathering" and its like, when a Jedi constructs their lightsaber is when they "give it life" so to speak. Being described as useless otherwise. Going by that aspect, when a lightsaber is constructed via meditation and the Force, is when the crystal is bonded to the Jedi. Likewise, a Sith would cause a crystal to "bleed" during the same process, but instead of bonding with the crystal, they are dominating it, which appears to cause it to turn red, rather than another color. It is on construction that the crystal and the Jedi or Sith bond via the Force in a deeper way as the lightsaber is built, thus this appears to be when the crystals color changes to reflect that connection. This provides a reasoning for Ezra's blade to be blue one season, but green the next, when it us assumed to be the same crystal in both lightsabers. The base for the discussion of course is related to how Ahsoka got white bladed lightsabers when constructing her newer set.

The bond with a Jedi does not mean the saber cannot be used by others, it just makes the user more in tuned with the saber. However it appears if this is not done, the saber will not work at all. So perhaps there is something involved with the Force to make the crystal work with the lightsaber's components as the Force users builds it, otherwise it just doesn't work as advertised. Building it wrong could even blow up the lightsaber and damage a bunch of stuff around it, yet leave the crystal entirely intact.

The question that has not been answered though is why a lightsaber might be blue for one Jedi, but green for another, or yellow, and especially, why a single Jedi might construct lightsabers with different colors at different times.

Ezra making two lightsaber (likely with the same crystal) with two different blade colors. (though I wonder if Ezra's first blade was what would traditionally come out for someone trying to be a defender, while the green one was because he saw one and went "that looks so cool".)

Ashoka making her first lightsaber green, while her second was a very yellowish-green (the later second set being white was described in the novel)

Jedi General Krell had two double bladed lightsabers, one blue and one green. We can guess he has four crystals.

Count Dooku's dark sider assassins do not apprear to have constructed their own lightsabers, but were given to them by Dooku.

 

[C.E. Evans]

If all you can do is mindlessly gainsay, they're you're not exactly presenting a terribly compelling argument.

No, you've just been mindlessly ignoring my argument. If you had really thought about it, you'd realize that all I'm proposing is that they could have gone with something better and less convoluted than they did. Calling a straightforward and less geeky idea shallow and boring isn't a terribly compelling argument.

And how *exactly* do you propose the new take is "getting in the way of good storytelling"?

It's not "exactly" a good idea and building on it isn't going to lead to good stories. It was something poorly conceived and basically pulled out of someone's butt to overexplain something that just about everyone already understood--bad guys tend to have red lightsabers. Good God, not everything requires a lengthy explanation. Best to file it away in the same "please ignore" locker with the Midi-Chlorians and just get on with the story.

 

[Venardhi]

Soon to be revealed, untold story between ESB and RotJ:

Luke sits alone in Ben's hut, focused intently. He closes his eyes and raises his brand new LIGHTSABER for the very first time. He turns it on and . . . nothing happens.

Ghost of Ben, appearing from nowhere: "Oh Yeah, btw dude, you gotta go to this crystal planet. It's a thing."

Luke: "Why?"

Ghost of Ben: "Disney, I guess?"

 

[Reverend]

No, you've just been mindlessly ignoring my argument. If you had really thought about it, you'd realize that all I'm proposing is that they could have gone with something better and less convoluted than they did. Calling a straightforward and less geeky idea shallow and boring isn't a terribly compelling argument.

I haven't ignored anything, it's just that the crux of your argument thus far can be boiled down to "Nuh-uh!" Not the kind of thing one can engage with intelligently.

Honestly I'm at a loss as to how you can call this "convoluted". It's not convoluted at all, or complex or confusing or Byzantine or any other such synonym. It's actually simple, straight forward, very easy to follow and a natural elaboration of what has already been established. If you're struggling with the concept then perhaps you're the one being ignorant and refusing to think, no?

Soon to be revealed, untold story between ESB and RotJ:

Luke sits alone in Ben's hut, focused intently. He closes his eyes and raises his brand new LIGHTSABER for the very first time. He turns it on and . . . nothing happens.

Ghost of Ben, appearing from nowhere: "Oh Yeah, btw dude, you gotta go to this crystal planet. It's a thing."

Luke: "Why?"

Ghost of Ben: "Disney, I guess?"

The Marvel comics have already established that Luke went back and found Ben's journey not long after ANH. It's a fair bet there's the basics of lightsaber construction in there since he must have planned for training Luke at some point. He may have even nabbed a holocron between disabling the recall signal and sending out his warning data-packet.
In point of fact he did try to start training Luke years ago but Owen told him to bugger off.
It's also worth keeping in mind that Luke had Anakin's old saber for years and is pretty mechanically apt himself, so he probably dismantled it as much as he dared more than once, just to understand how it works and how to repair it if need be.

It's also been suggested that Luke's second saber crystal was stashed in that hut too and previously belonged to Qui Gon, though that story hasn't been told yet so we don't know for sure. It's just as possible he acquired it elsewhere between tESB & RotJ.

 

[Venardhi]

There is a deleted scene from RotJ that was intended to be the final stage of Luke building it, and it is even in dialogue later in the movie. "I see you have constructed a new lightsaber; your skills are complete." The clear implication is that Luke built it himself.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I haven't ignored anything, it's just that the crux of your argument thus far can be boiled down to "Nuh-uh!" Not the kind of thing one can engage with intelligently.

Your comment is fundamentally false. I'm not the one using childish remarks. And the crux of my argument has been simply a less geeky rationale could have been conceived than the one that's been recently given.

Honestly I'm at a loss as to how you can call this "convoluted". It's not convoluted at all, or complex or confusing or Byzantine or any other such synonym. It's actually simple, straight forward, very easy to follow and a natural elaboration of what has already been established.

No, it's the exact opposite of that.

If you're struggling with the concept then perhaps you're the one being ignorant and refusing to think, no?

You're getting frustrated apparently since you're now resorting to silly name-calling and taunts. Tends to happen when people don't really have nothing else to fall back on.

 

[Reverend]

There is a deleted scene from RotJ that was intended to be the final stage of Luke building it, and it is even in dialogue later in the movie. "I see you have constructed a new lightsaber; your skills are complete." The clear implication is that Luke built it himself.

Sure and from when Ezra constructed his saber we know that most of the components are easily acquired (also Ahsoka assembles her's or of scraps she collected over the course of a year.) The sticking point is the crystal, which is not easily obtained. The old EU explanation is that it was a synthetic crystal that Luke "cooked" in a special furnace found in Obi-Wan's hermitage (because of course he'd lug a heavy arse forge out across the jundland wastes!)
Knowing what we know now that's not actually a thing so he must have gotten it elsewhere. The simplest explanation is the aforementioned "it's Qui Gon's old crystal" theory, but could also have come from somewhere else.

For example he could have acquired an old saber off the black market or from some collector or liberated it from some Imperial's trophy case. Perhaps he found the last resting place of a Jedi that was killed in Order 66, or Obi-Wan's spirit sent him on a vision quest to another place like Lothal or Iilum or like Ahsoka, he salvaged it after running into and defeating an Inquisitor. Possibilities abound!

As for the deleted scene: well first of all it's deleted and therefore not strictly speaking in-continuity. That said, we don't actually see Luke build the thing from scratch, just fiddle with it after it's already been assembled and give it a test ignition before loading it into R2's dome. So either way the tricky bit is already done off-screen.
Indeed, in the Ahsoka novel, what she ends up using are said to be fairly crude assemblies with just the essentials. The implication being she would later refine the hilts into the design we see on the show. So clearly the part that matters most is bonding with the crystal.

Your comment is fundamentally false. I'm not the one using childish remarks. And the crux of my argument has been simply a less geeky rationale could have been conceived than the one that's been recently given.


No, it's the exact opposite of that.

You're getting frustrated apparently since you're now resorting to silly name-calling and taunts. Tends to happen when people don't really have nothing else to fall back on.

1) What name calling? 2) You've still failed to come up with any coherent justification for your assertions and 3) You're also still just gainsaying in lieu of an actual argument and 4) have now added projection to your repertoire.
Finally, since you're clearly determined to make this a personal argument instead of one based on facts; welcome to my ignore list, have fun shouting into an abyss of digital silence. Toodles!

 

[C.E. Evans]

1) What name calling?

1) Look at your previous post.

2) You've still failed to come up with any coherent justification for your assertions

2) I have. You've just ignored them.

and 3) You're also still just gainsaying in lieu of an actual argument

Nope.

and 4) have now added projection to your repertoire.

Um, what? False.

Finally, since you're clearly determined to make this a personal argument instead of one based on facts...

That's 100% hypocrisy. You turned this personal, not me. In fact, you turned it personal in a previous discussion we had.

welcome to my ignore list, have fun shouting into an abyss of digital silence. Toodles!

In other words, I can now post in the Star Wars forum in peace.

 

[Venardhi]

Sure and from when Ezra constructed his saber we know that most of the components are easily acquired (also Ahsoka assembles her's or of scraps she collected over the course of a year.) The sticking point is the crystal, which is not easily obtained. The old EU explanation is that it was a synthetic crystal that Luke "cooked" in a special furnace found in Obi-Wan's hermitage (because of course he'd lug a heavy arse forge out across the jundland wastes!)
Knowing what we know now that's not actually a thing so he must have gotten it elsewhere. The simplest explanation is the aforementioned "it's Qui Gon's old crystal" theory, but could also have come from somewhere else.

For example he could have acquired an old saber off the black market or from some collector or liberated it from some Imperial's trophy case. Perhaps he found the last resting place of a Jedi that was killed in Order 66, or Obi-Wan's spirit sent him on a vision quest to another place like Lothal or Iilum or like Ahsoka, he salvaged it after running into and defeating an Inquisitor. Possibilities abound!

As for the deleted scene: well first of all it's deleted and therefore not strictly speaking in-continuity. That said, we don't actually see Luke build the thing from scratch, just fiddle with it after it's already been assembled and give it a test ignition before loading it into R2's dome. So either way the tricky bit is already done off-screen.
Indeed, in the Ahsoka novel, what she ends up using are said to be fairly crude assemblies with just the essentials. The implication being she would later refine the hilts into the design we see on the show. So clearly the part that matters most is bonding with the crystal.

!

If Luke hadn't bonded with it in some farcical crystalline ceremony then it begs the question of why all that is necessary at all.

And I'm talking about original intent. There is no reason to believe from just watching RotJ that Luke did anything more than build himself a new lightsaber. Something Vader confirms as a step towards finishing his training and Luke does not deny.

That is why there are accusations of convolution and unnecessary complications in the story. According to this new information Luke either made an inferior lightsaber or everyone else is jumping through hoops for no reason.

 

[Reverend]

If Luke hadn't bonded with it in some farcical crystalline ceremony then it begs the question of why all that is necessary at all.

And I'm talking about original intent. There is no reason to believe from just watching RotJ that Luke did anything more than build himself a new lightsaber. Something Vader confirms as a step towards finishing his training and Luke does not deny.

That is why there are accusations of convolution and unnecessary complications in the story. According to this new information Luke either made an inferior lightsaber or everyone else is jumping through hoops for no reason.

All true. However the point of all of this is not meant to specifically address that particular story point. It's meant to expand and elaborate on the lore from the material set earlier in the timeline. It's meant to be an arcane Jedi tradition, one that we've already glimpsed at twice in each of the TV shows. We see very little of the in the OT because of the stripped down, hasty nature of Luke's training. See also: he's never referred to as a Padawan and is never formally Knighted.

It wasn't included in RotJ because it simply wasn't relevant to the plot. Also, possibly Lucas hadn't solidified how he thought this all worked and just skimmed over it (again, because it wasn't pertinent.)
It also never came up in the PT because again, the construction of a lightsaber has never been relevant to the plot. In TPM, Obi-Wan has already been a Padawan for (presumably) years prior to this, so his gathering ceremony is all done and dusted. Later in AotC, again, with Anakin we skip over this part and rejoin him a decade after his presumed visit to Iilum.

It's only in TCW, Rebels and now the Ahsoka novel where it's become increasingly relevant and appropriate for them to go into further detail. And that's all it is, more detail. It's doesn't really complicate or contradict anything already established. Sure, it adds an extra layer of questions about how Luke constructed his lightsaber, but that was always obfuscated in the movie. It's just now we can rule out "he cooked his own crystal" as a possibility. Would "he found Qui Gon's old one" really be that much of a wrench? Or heavens forbid "he went on an interesting and exciting adventure to rediscover lost Jedi wisdom"?
I don't see a downside to this.