Poll "Small Universe Syndrome" - Yay Or Nay?

[fireproof78]

It does, but it also has the feeling that it's disconnected from the rest despite all of the OT it relies on. It just feels strangely inconsistent with what came before it.

I'll spilt the difference and say it depends greatly on the style. The ST has a greater sense of adventure to it that is closer to the OT, but also feels more professional, because it is working from the pioneering done, in part, by the OT. It can't completely capture that feel because the OT invented it. It's like expecting a band to sound like it's first album when they are on their fifth or sixth. There is a different feel to it because things have been learned since then.

Not saying there isn't a small disconnect, but it is closer in feel to classical literature disconnect, than a fully inconsistency to me.

 

[Unicron]

I think this is the bigger thing, and I recall a reviewer I enjoyed online commenting in a similar vein-George wanted Anakin to be all these things, a pilot, an inventor, a dreamer, a love interest, and it was too much to cram in to this character starting at 9 years old. The dynamic between Anakin and Padme is off from the beginning because he is trying to infuse so much weight in this relationship.

I agree, and one of the things I've come to dislike about the PT is Anakin's "Force divine" birth and all the emphasis on him being a chosen one for a prophecy, when nothing like that was hinted at before and doesn't really help him as a character IMO. It's just excess baggage that could be either streamlined or cut out. If the goal is to make Anakin a powerful and important Jedi, that's fine naturally - just not some of the steps intended to build up to that.

I also think that the politics of the Clone Wars could have been explored more in regards to Anakin's eventual fall and those Jedi who refused to serve as leaders or soldiers, because they genuinely felt it was the wrong thing for the Order to do. Dooku's own fall to the dark side was partly based on his realization that the machinery of the Republic had grown increasingly corrupt, and his belief that Sidious would use the war to clear things away. I know the animated series have touched on some of these elements, though I haven't watched them so I don't know the full context.

 

[eschaton]

I generally hate it, but I think it depends upon the franchise.

In something like Marvel, it makes sense, since you're dealing with literal superheroes, which stretches plausibility to begin with. Plus a lot of the stories are based on Earth, which sets the scope a bit smaller.

I absolutely loathe it in Star Trek though, because the actual setting is not a single planet, but a wide swathe of the galaxy. There should be thousands of inhabited planets, each with billions of people. There should be tens of thousands of different ships in each fleet. Having the same folks run into each other randomly just doesn't make logical sense, nor does being the "only ship in the quadrant." Though Trek has typically fudged around with this a lot, with "colonies" only having a few thousand people for some reason, and major players like the Romulans and Klingons never even having a canonical "second planet" which has a substantial population.

It also makes the setting itself seem small when it shouldn't. A great example is how the (generally great) DS9 dealt with Ferenginar. The show had Quark running in with the Grand Negus (effectively the head of a multi-stellar empire) on a yearly basis. Eventually his mom started dating the Negus, and his brother became Negus. Liquidator Brunt was also changed from a generic antagonist into someone with serious designs to control the Ferengi Alliance himself. As a result "Ferenginar" felt like a small village off somewhere, not a bustling capital planet of a multi-world alliance.

I'd also argue thematically it makes little sense to have Trek be a world of these great and renowned heroes. The Trekkian ethos is much more about talented professionals working to the best they are able as a group. It's a world of free will, not destiny. A world of meritocracy, not of nobles.

 

[fireproof78]

I also think that the politics of the Clone Wars could have been explored more in regards to Anakin's eventual fall and those Jedi who refused to serve as leaders or soldiers, because they genuinely felt it was the wrong thing for the Order to do. Dooku's own fall to the dark side was partly based on his realization that the machinery of the Republic had grown increasingly corrupt, and his belief that Sidious would use the war to clear things away. I know the animated series have touched on some of these elements, though I haven't watched them so I don't know the full context.

The Animated Series definitely touched on Dooku's part, a little bit, though not as well as it could have been, in my opinion. Honestly, the Clone Wars does a great job of showing that there was a lot of potential drama in the galactic ramifications and the personal ones of Anakin's choices. Dooku is someone I think that was completely mishandled as a villain, because his choices for doing so are never unpacked. Even Anakin's reasons, as weirdly surface level as they felt, at least had a brief exploration in the films themselves.

Dooku as a foreshadowing of Anakin's fall would have been a lot more interesting if that character had been explored within the films, rather than the straight up villain role he takes on. I would love to have seen Dooku's take on the corruption of the Republic, and the Order in general. I know the comics touched on Sidious using Qui-Gon's death as a manipulation of Dooku's disillusionment with the Order to sway him to the Sith but, again, Dooku pops in out of nowhere in AOTC, and goes from a "political idealist" to a Sith Lord with little information.

 

[Unicron]

I agree again, Christopher Lee could have been given much more to work with. Perhaps we need a time machine to do some editing...

 

[Owain Taggart]

The ST has a greater sense of adventure

If you call feeling like it's not going anywhere, a sense of adventure...

Because that's ultimately what it felt like to me.

 

[fireproof78]

If you call feeling like it's not going anywhere, a sense of adventure...

Well, I thought it went somewhere...

I agree again, Christopher Lee could have been given much more to work with. Perhaps we need a time machine to do some editing...

Honestly, TPM would have benefited from a rewrite, and including Dooku early on in the process, showing his disillusionment with the Order.

 

[cooleddie74]

It's more swashbuckling than the Prequels so I'll give them that but the adventuring never becomes as interesting as it should have been. There's way too much fluff and too many unnecessary scenes of padding, and while the Prequels knew a thing or two about padding the padding blended in with the rest of the films which were already talky and austere in nature.

 

[Owain Taggart]

Well, I thought it went somewhere...

I mean, for all the sense of adventure it has, I just feel that it strangely didn't do anything significant with it. It's all just... distraction.

 

[cooleddie74]

Yeah, there's a lot of sound and fury in the Sequels which, sadly, signify little.

 

[fireproof78]

I mean, for all the sense of adventure it has, I just feel that it strangely didn't do anything significant with it. It's all just... distraction.

Completely disagree because I love Rey's journey.

 

[cooleddie74]

Rey's journey is substantial but sadly most of the other leads are wasted or at the very least underdeveloped. The Prequels may have given characters too many boring things to do but at least they got things to do that mattered to the storyline.

 

[eschaton]

I think The Expanse is as good an example of small universe syndrome as any, for what it’s worth. But no one complains about it because I think, so many people love most of what the show is doing, and they think it all ”makes sense.”

The only thing that I think is "small universe" regarding The Expanse is that it turns out Naomi's baby daddy is coincidentally someone who becomes very important to events across the solar system.

But otherwise, no, it's not really small universe syndrome at all. Holden, Alex, Amos, Bobbie...they're all a bunch of nobodies who bump into one another initially due to random chance, and don't bump into one another again unless they consciously seek one another out. Sure they end up being at the nexus of a bunch of interplanetary intrigue, but much of this past the opening arc is because they're consciously set in that direction by Chrisjen, who is arguably the most powerful woman in the solar system.

Small universe syndrome tends to be more when one of the following happens, IMHO:

1. Major characters within the setting bump into one another randomly. That is to say they are neither introduced by those in positions of power, nor on the hunt for the same plot-critical element, but just...happen to be in the right place at the right time.
2. A high proportion of the main characters have detailed, tortured backstories which somehow interconnect.
3. As time goes on it becomes clear that the already-established characters are responsible for more and more plot development within the universe.

 

[fireproof78]

Rey's journey is substantial but sadly most of the other leads are wasted or at the very least underdeveloped. The Prequels may have given characters too many boring things to do but at least they got things to do that mattered to the storyline.

Finn would be the only one I would say didn't get much that mattered overall. Poe definitely does, and the group dynamic in TROS is still one of my favorite parts of that film. For me, the ST is primarily a coming of age style story, with Rey, Poe and Finn finding their place in the larger universe. Now, that is a bit of a smaller scope in terms of what the OT dealt with, and it definitely isn't done well, but I would be lying if I went "Oh, nothing mattered in the ST" because I think that the main characters grow through hell and have to grow or die. And that's a story that I find incredibly impactful for my own work and life, because I see so many youth and preteens struggling with the same question as Rey, and Finn and Poe. That's probably why it matters more to me-I see it in real life; aside from the laser swords and evil space wizards and space ships.

As time goes on it becomes clear that the already-established characters are responsible for more and more plot development within the universe.

Small universe, to me, is best described as "video game syndrome." In games, especially RPG style, the events in the universe don't really "happen" until the main character(s) make it happen. So, all the events depend almost entirely on their choices to progress.

 

[eschaton]

Small universe, to me, is best described as "video game syndrome." In games, especially RPG style, the events in the universe don't really "happen" until the main character(s) make it happen. So, all the events depend almost entirely on their choices to progress.

I think this is a good way of putting it. I'd also argue this style of writing is more jarring in ensemble stories than protagonist-focused ones, because there's a need to have a similar level of "epic" with everyone, which becomes orders of magnitude more improbable.

 

[Owain Taggart]

Completely disagree because I love Rey's journey.

And see, arguably she's the only one who's had any significant development. But as to the trilogy as a whole, again everything lacks a sense of momentum, which is tied to plotting reasons. Things happen without weight to them. So while we might see a lot of things happening on-screen it's just for naught.

 

[fireproof78]

And see, arguably she's the only one who's had any significant development. But as to the trilogy as a whole, again everything lacks a sense of momentum, which is tied to plotting reasons. Things happen without weight to them. So while we might see a lot of things happening on-screen it's just for naught.

Agree to disagree on this point. I feel there's more weight, but we don't see the broader impact of it. Things happen, but those things are less the focus than the far more personal struggles of the heroes. It's a whole lot smaller though, which I think is why TROS feels so odd because it goes from small scale to huge scale without a solid build up.

 

[Owain Taggart]

Yep, buildup is definitely part of it. The ST in general feels strangely lacking in setup and payoff.

 

[fireproof78]

Yep, buildup is definitely part of it. The ST in general feels strangely lacking in setup and payoff.

Yeah, it's too mixed to be as effective as it wants to be. But, that doesn't mean it lacks narrative weight or meaning.

 

[Owain Taggart]

Small universe, to me, is best described as "video game syndrome." In games, especially RPG style, the events in the universe don't really "happen" until the main character(s) make it happen. So, all the events depend almost entirely on their choices to progress.

See, I find small-universe doesn't bother me so much in games, because it is a game and I somewhat expect it. This is especially true in RPGs, where there is foreshadowing certain important someones that you get to meet up with later during the game, and I find that depending on the game and the backstory, this can actually be quite effective.