Size Of The New Enterprise (large images)

[Crazy Eddie]

On a 470 meter ship with the lower level of the shuttlebay where it is...this is how the shuttle bay COULD be.

It isn't. I tried it already. I couldn't get the deck levels to be consistent with the windows--or the bridge--on a 470 meter ship; quite a few decks would be half-height compared to the others, especially the bridge level.

You have to actually draw in the deck heights to see it. At about 3.1 meters per deck (and a 3 meter shuttle) then you have a four-deck shuttlebay that fits the visuals on screen: that's one shuttle height between the top of each and the shelf above it.

Your image simply doesn't give them enough clearance to be consistent. Trust me, I TRIED to make it fit with 470 meters for like two weeks. It doesn't work.

 

[EJD1984]

Would anyone care to provide the size of the Kelvin while we're at it?

That might be a just a little dangerous.

I have a feeling that if we get an official size of the Kelvin, then start comparing reference points & assumptions to the NuE you may wind up with a significantly smaller Enterprise than the purported 762m.

Then this tread would start all over again (or explode).

I tried a comparison similar to that a while back in the thread, and came up with 303m(995ft) for the Kelvin, but the relation seemed to force an educated guesstimate that the NuE was even smaller, down to 422m(1385ft).

Then, as expected, the BBS "powers that be" slammed me for even making the attempt.


Though I'm still holding my (tenuous) ground that the 457m(ish) I came up with would be a workable measurement.

That would only give us a 9m tall shuttlebay and THAT is absolutely NOT compatible with the shuttlebay shown in the film..

"If the bay don't fit"...to borrow a phrase...

Be careful with borrowing the phrase "If the bay don't fit..........." We all know the extremely large percentage of the populace thought how that verdict should have turned out. So.................

Plus we all know the scaling consistencies Trek is known for, even within the same movie/episodes.........

In that regard this movie and Enterprise fits right into Trek lore.........

 

[Mangledduk]

On a 470 meter ship with the lower level of the shuttlebay where it is...this is how the shuttle bay COULD be.

It isn't. I tried it already. I couldn't get the deck levels to be consistent with the windows--or the bridge--on a 470 meter ship; quite a few decks would be half-height compared to the others, especially the bridge level.

You have to actually draw in the deck heights to see it. At about 3.1 meters per deck (and a 3 meter shuttle) then you have a four-deck shuttlebay that fits the visuals on screen: that's one shuttle height between the top of each and the shelf above it.

Your image simply doesn't give them enough clearance to be consistent. Trust me, I TRIED to make it fit with 470 meters for like two weeks. It doesn't work.

Yeah, I noticed that on the bridge level as well. Does the chart make account of the fact that all decks might not be a standard height, or the possibility of no real decks in the secondary hull (based on the brewery engineering set)? If so, touche good point

I do think the schematic is a little distorted as well, if you look at this screenshot, the deck over the bridge is considerably higher than appears in that schematic.

 

[Skywalker]

Could we fix the page-stretching image, please?

So, 762 m Enterprise and 450 m Kelvin, you say?

Would anyone care to theorize on whether the Kelvin was the same size in the Prime timeline, and if so, why Starfleet might've shrank their ships by the time the Constitution class was launched?

If they shrank them...

*ominous music*

Maybe Starfleet didn't shrink them, it's just that the Kelvin type starships were slightly larger because they had to fit everything in a single saucer, whereas with later ships like the Constitution-class they had an entire secondary hull to play with, so they didn't need to be as large.

 

[Praetor]

So, 762 m Enterprise and 450 m Kelvin, you say?

Would anyone care to theorize on whether the Kelvin was the same size in the Prime timeline, and if so, why Starfleet might've shrank their ships by the time the Constitution class was launched?

If they shrank them...

*ominous music*

Two speculations.

First scenario: Despite Kirk's efforts, the Narada DID slip back through the wormhole and ended up in the outskirts of Sol during the Earth Romulan War, just in time to have some opportunistic Romulan general pick up a handful of scraps of useful technology and setting off a chain of events that lead to the eventual redesign of whatever class the Kelvin was (working on a fanfic to this effect).

Second Scenario: It's a reboot, so the original Kelvin never existed in the first place.

As much as the first would explain, well, everything, I have to lean towards the second. Perhaps this continuity is a result of an alternate timeline stemming forward from time alterations during "Enterprise" anyway... which might in turn connect with the first theory. My head hurts now.

I think a very likely scenario is that the makers of the movie designed really cool looking ships that looked about the same size as the old ones and really didn't expect the majority of viewers to notice the difference or even care. I guarantee the average viewer has no idea how big the original Enterprise was. This does seem to be the case among just about everyone, except for us of course

That sounds about right.

 

[Gepard]

Well, at least that confirms the notion that the sizing didn't stay consistent, as we've suspected all along.

Unless he means he thinks the original Enterprise was 1300 feet long...

Funny you should use that number. There's a couple of paragraphs on the new ship in the May issue of Computer Graphics World. From page 32:

The goal for modelers working on the Enterprise was to put the ship into the 21st century without changing the look too much. "It was the best exercise I've been involved in," [model supervisor Bruce] Holcomb says. "The Enterprise is a sacred thing for this company, so we wanted to be sure we thought of everything. I have never spent so much time and love on anything."

Working from the concept art and from reference footage, the modelers began fleshing out the parts starting with the saucer section, which Rene Garcia built to match that in previous films. Then, the team began the subtle process of streamlining the ship--stretching it from the original 1300 feet to 2000, making the neck a bit thinner in areas, and otherwise slightly changing the proportions to make it look grander.

Emphasis added.

So it looks like 1.) they thought the original was bigger than it was, and 2.) nobody pays nearly as much attention to this shit as we do, even the people paid to do it. As far as everyone else is concerned, this version is almost exactly like the "original." Yay us.

 

[EJD1984]

On a 470 meter ship with the lower level of the shuttlebay where it is...this is how the shuttle bay COULD be.

It isn't. I tried it already. I couldn't get the deck levels to be consistent with the windows--or the bridge--on a 470 meter ship; quite a few decks would be half-height compared to the others, especially the bridge level.

The half-height decks could easily be outer hull plating, that also accommodates various mechanical & support systems (saucer section). Which seems to be alluded to somewhat in the initial teaser and construction sequence.

You have to actually draw in the deck heights to see it. At about 3.1 meters per deck (and a 3 meter shuttle) then you have a four-deck shuttlebay that fits the visuals on screen: that's one shuttle height between the top of each and the shelf above it.

Your image simply doesn't give them enough clearance to be consistent. Trust me, I TRIED to make it fit with 470 meters for like two weeks. It doesn't work.

The hangar bay has no written rule that it has to be an exact deck height count. There is already a taper on the hull that makes it impossible to keep a consistent height or width. Once you enter into the cavity of that ship, it would be designed to the requirements of the hull, and structural stress factors. With no regard as to how many decks are in the Engineering Hull.

*There even seemed to be a scaling/size inconsistency with the Kelvin's hangar deck. Look to have a larger width on the interior shot as the shuttles are leaving, as compared to the external.

 

[Mangledduk]

Well, at least that confirms the notion that the sizing didn't stay consistent, as we've suspected all along.

Unless he means he thinks the original Enterprise was 1300 feet long...

Funny you should use that number. There's a couple of paragraphs on the new ship in the May issue of Computer Graphics World. From page 32:

The goal for modelers working on the Enterprise was to put the ship into the 21st century without changing the look too much. "It was the best exercise I've been involved in," [model supervisor Bruce] Holcomb says. "The Enterprise is a sacred thing for this company, so we wanted to be sure we thought of everything. I have never spent so much time and love on anything."

Working from the concept art and from reference footage, the modelers began fleshing out the parts starting with the saucer section, which Rene Garcia built to match that in previous films. Then, the team began the subtle process of streamlining the ship--stretching it from the original 1300 feet to 2000, making the neck a bit thinner in areas, and otherwise slightly changing the proportions to make it look grander.

Emphasis added.

So it looks like 1.) they thought the original was bigger than it was, and 2.) nobody pays nearly as much attention to this shit as we do, even the people paid to do it. As far as everyone else is concerned, this version is almost exactly like the "original." Yay us.

This snippet is pure GOLD good sir. Nice find So basically the ship should be about 1.5 times the length of the original. Which would make it...1456.9 feet...which is...444 meters...this is assuming the original was 947 feet...this is too funny.

 

[Gepard]

This snippet is pure GOLD good sir. Nice find So basically the ship should be about 1.5 times the size of the original. Which would make it...1456.9 feet...which is...444 meters...this is assuming the original was 947 feet...this is too funny.

Remember that ILM is also the source of several of the much larger numbers, too. I think its primary purpose is to reinforce that they weren't really sure how large it was, even down to not knowing how big the original was.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

All I'm trying to show it is it possible that the ship is smaller. I'm not saying that it is. I just find it annoying when people will refuse to keep themselves open to other possibilities even though there is definite evidence against their stated figures. I think it could be as massive as many think, but I also think it might be much smaller. There really just isn't enough evidence or concrete proof to end this debate decisively yet. All I'm asking is for people to keep an open mind, and not just except figures blindly.

I'd be more open to it if there were better evidence FOR it. As it stands, the evidence leads me (and most of the rest of us) to a 716-762m ship.

I respect your hard work. I just don't agree with your conclusions. IMO, you underscale the shuttle vs a human figure AND underscale the shuttle vs bay size.

 

[Mangledduk]

All I'm trying to show it is it possible that the ship is smaller. I'm not saying that it is. I just find it annoying when people will refuse to keep themselves open to other possibilities even though there is definite evidence against their stated figures. I think it could be as massive as many think, but I also think it might be much smaller. There really just isn't enough evidence or concrete proof to end this debate decisively yet. All I'm asking is for people to keep an open mind, and not just except figures blindly.

I'd be more open to it if there were better evidence FOR it. As it stands, the evidence leads me (and most of the rest of us) to a 716-762m ship.

I respect your hard work. I just don't agree with your conclusions. IMO, you underscale the shuttle vs a human figure AND underscale the shuttle vs bay size.

Fair enough On another note though, I actually have done diagrams for the ship being all the different sizes that ILM came out with. I only posted up the 470 meter length because it was the size I was working on at the time. I felt like playing devils advocate. Here's my 610 meter (2000 foot) diagram i did about a week ago.

Incidently I used a larger scale shuttle in this diagram. The only reason my shuttles were smaller is because people on another board were telling me my shuttles were scaled too big. Figures

If you guys want, I have diagrams for everything up to over 700 meters as well, just let me know and I'll post them.

 

[Mangledduk]

This snippet is pure GOLD good sir. Nice find So basically the ship should be about 1.5 times the size of the original. Which would make it...1456.9 feet...which is...444 meters...this is assuming the original was 947 feet...this is too funny.

Remember that ILM is also the source of several of the much larger numbers, too. I think its primary purpose is to reinforce that they weren't really sure how large it was, even down to not knowing how big the original was.

Yeah this is what I have suspected from the beginning..oh well.

 

[buzzknox]

So, 762 m Enterprise and 450 m Kelvin, you say?

Would anyone care to theorize on whether the Kelvin was the same size in the Prime timeline, and if so, why Starfleet might've shrank their ships by the time the Constitution class was launched?

If they shrank them...

*ominous music*

Two speculations.

First scenario: Despite Kirk's efforts, the Narada DID slip back through the wormhole and ended up in the outskirts of Sol during the Earth Romulan War, just in time to have some opportunistic Romulan general pick up a handful of scraps of useful technology and setting off a chain of events that lead to the eventual redesign of whatever class the Kelvin was (working on a fanfic to this effect).

Second Scenario: It's a reboot, so the original Kelvin never existed in the first place.

A third scenario was that the Kelvin represented a design philosophy that would be replaced by smaller vessels that met the same requirements (range, speed, combat capability, etc) more efficiently through tech improvements. With the change brought about by the Narada, the move towards efficiency was reversed and the tech advances were applied to larger vessels to deal with the threat posed. So, the Kelvin, rather than representing a design dead end that would be replaced by the Constitution class and her siblings, became a justification for delaying the Constitution class until it could be redesigned to deal with the threat posed by this hostile that might reflect the capabilities of the Romulan Star Empire or, perhaps more disturbingly, a threat somehow affiliated with the Romulans or some branch thereof but not under the Empire's control.

Can you tell I'm working on a fanfic of my own?

 

[darkwing_duck1]

A 700-something meter or 900-something meter length doesn't match the viewscreen width.

He is right, if you scale up the height of the viewscreen then the aspect ratio gets thrown off. I am of the opinion the ship could be any number of lengths and its possible they showed us different scales in the movie. Every estimate that anybody has put forth on here that used screencaps to make an estimation on the size of the ship could be flawed in any number of ways. But they are what they are, best guesses. I personally dont care what size the ship is. Its all part of the fun trying to gather evidence and make diagrams. If you dont like the diagrams you are entitled to not like them, I dont care Just because you believe one thing though, does not make your assumptions any more valid than any other piece of evidence presented on this forum. The only way it would is if your name was JJ Abrams.

Given that there is open question about what details were added at what point and at what scale in the process, we have to look to convergence of datapoints.

I did an analysis based on a ~16m shuttlebay that scaled out the viewscreen as ~2m tall and the airlock as ~2.5m (outside ring) tall.

Even granting that the width of the screen is off (I haven't looked myself), I'm looking at 3 OTHER datapoints that match up within +/- 5-6%.

When dealing with a model that's been re-scaled at least once (maybe more) during it's development, I have to go with the preponderance of the evidence.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

So basically we are working against a 40 year history of continuity and sizing errors and we are still attempting to nail down one solid figure for the ship...No offense to anyone that really wants this resolved, but I think in the end we will all have to agree to disagree, because until the manual is written, there really is no solid basis for the size imho.

I have to disagree. We have the proportionate sizes between the shuttle and the bay. The ship HAS to accomodate that bay.

 

[Mangledduk]

Samples from my 725-726 meter length...I have found that no matter what scale you put it at, it will create problems with other shots in the movie....You can quote lengths and sizes, but unless you can show that it was that size in EVERY shot in the movie, I just cant accept one size.

Above the deflector..

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Second Scenario: It's a reboot, so the original Kelvin never existed in the first place.

As much as the first would explain, well, everything, I have to lean towards the second. Perhaps this continuity is a result of an alternate timeline stemming forward from time alterations during "Enterprise" anyway... which might in turn connect with the first theory. My head hurts now.

Except that JJ has established the "branch point" as being Narada's arrival in the 23rd century , meaning the Kelvin (built BEFORE then) was always a part of the backstory.

 

[Praetor]

Well, at least that confirms the notion that the sizing didn't stay consistent, as we've suspected all along.

Unless he means he thinks the original Enterprise was 1300 feet long...

Funny you should use that number. There's a couple of paragraphs on the new ship in the May issue of Computer Graphics World. From page 32:

The goal for modelers working on the Enterprise was to put the ship into the 21st century without changing the look too much. "It was the best exercise I've been involved in," [model supervisor Bruce] Holcomb says. "The Enterprise is a sacred thing for this company, so we wanted to be sure we thought of everything. I have never spent so much time and love on anything."

Working from the concept art and from reference footage, the modelers began fleshing out the parts starting with the saucer section, which Rene Garcia built to match that in previous films. Then, the team began the subtle process of streamlining the ship--stretching it from the original 1300 feet to 2000, making the neck a bit thinner in areas, and otherwise slightly changing the proportions to make it look grander.

Emphasis added.

So it looks like 1.) they thought the original was bigger than it was, and 2.) nobody pays nearly as much attention to this shit as we do, even the people paid to do it. As far as everyone else is concerned, this version is almost exactly like the "original." Yay us.

Ho. Lee. Shit. Why am I not surprised?

The makers of the ever-changing bird of prey and contradictory Excelsior now give us this.

This snippet is pure GOLD good sir. Nice find So basically the ship should be about 1.5 times the size of the original. Which would make it...1456.9 feet...which is...444 meters...this is assuming the original was 947 feet...this is too funny.

Remember that ILM is also the source of several of the much larger numbers, too. I think its primary purpose is to reinforce that they weren't really sure how large it was, even down to not knowing how big the original was.

I think you're spot on, there.

Second Scenario: It's a reboot, so the original Kelvin never existed in the first place.

As much as the first would explain, well, everything, I have to lean towards the second. Perhaps this continuity is a result of an alternate timeline stemming forward from time alterations during "Enterprise" anyway... which might in turn connect with the first theory. My head hurts now.

Except that JJ has established the "branch point" as being Narada's arrival in the 23rd century , meaning the Kelvin (built BEFORE then) was always a part of the backstory.

Yeah. So, Starfleet used to build bigger, clunkier ships, some with only one nacelle, to do the job that smaller ships could do after the "time barrier" was broken?

 

[darkwing_duck1]

All I'm trying to show it is it possible that the ship is smaller. I'm not saying that it is. I just find it annoying when people will refuse to keep themselves open to other possibilities even though there is definite evidence against their stated figures. I think it could be as massive as many think, but I also think it might be much smaller. There really just isn't enough evidence or concrete proof to end this debate decisively yet. All I'm asking is for people to keep an open mind, and not just except figures blindly.

I'd be more open to it if there were better evidence FOR it. As it stands, the evidence leads me (and most of the rest of us) to a 716-762m ship.

I respect your hard work. I just don't agree with your conclusions. IMO, you underscale the shuttle vs a human figure AND underscale the shuttle vs bay size.

Fair enough On another note though, I actually have done diagrams for the ship being all the different sizes that ILM came out with. I only posted up the 470 meter length because it was the size I was working on at the time. I felt like playing devils advocate. Here's my 610 meter (2000 foot) diagram i did about a week ago.

Incidently I used a larger scale shuttle in this diagram. The only reason my shuttles were smaller is because people on another board were telling me my shuttles were scaled too big. Figures

If you guys want, I have diagrams for everything up to over 700 meters as well, just let me know and I'll post them.

Your 610m diagram looks much more like what we see in the film than the 400-something. I certainly wouldn't go BELOW that for LoA.

 

[Franklin]

I probably had better things to do today, but I got to playing with these numbers after downloading the 1400 pixel-length Enterprise profile.

I thought I'd approach it from trying to scale a shuttle craft based on the picture of the Academy shuttle hanger on the movie's website. If one assumes the opening in the hatch is just over six feet, then a shuttle is about 40 to 45 feet long, and about 12 feet high on its gear. It's also about 12 feet or so wide.

I scaled those to the Enterprise profile based on ships of 1000, 1400, 2100, and 2800-foot lengths. One thing is certain, the movie's Enterprise is a lot larger than TOS Enterprise (or its refit). One shuttle practically fills the shuttle bay's pad on a 1000-foot ship. Even on a 1400 foot long ship, the shuttle seems too large. It's at 2100 and larger that things look more in proportion.

One may also note that the shuttles we saw in the movie did not have circular docking rings like shuttles in TMP. What were docking points on the refit Enterprise may actually be small shuttle bays the ST09 Enterprise. If a shuttle is 12 feet tall with gear down and about 12 feet wide, then the bays would have to be a just few feet larger in diameter to accommodate entry (even with a tractor beam). The bays are about 9 pixels in diameter, or 13.5 feet on a 2100 foot long ship, and 18 feet on a 2800 foot long one. Either diameter would be big enough to allow an entire shuttle (as we've seen them) to enter.

So, until it can be scaled more accurately, or its size is irrefutably stated, I'd say this Enterprise is at least 2100 feet long. And 2800 or so is not out of the question. That makes the saucer anywhere from 975 to 1300 feet in diameter. And it's anywhere from 48 to 64 feet wide at its lip.

When it stood on its scaffolding in the Iowa cornfields it was as tall as a 80 or 90 story building, depending on the size of the scaffolding.

(If I've merely repeated a lot of things already posted in this very long thread, I apologize.)