Size and Strength of Empires

[Crazy Eddie]

The Earth branch of Starfleet is all we ever saw in DS9

We don't know that - all we know is that one fleet formerly tasked with Earth protection (and by no means established as part of an "Earth branch") was among the many elements present in the DS9 battles.

So "The fleet that is formerly tasked with Earth protection" is not necessarily "Earth branch."

In other news, the bird that has webbed feet, feathers, a duck bill and quacks is not necessarily a duck.

Our only remaining option seems to be to think that only Earth numbers its fleets

Or that the situation/tactical reports used by Sisko and Ross only referred to Starfleet forces and therefore omit the (in this case, superfluous) prefixes. If everyone in the room is from Charlie Company, you might say "Second Platoon," without bothering to spell out "Fourth Army, 82nd armored division, Charlie Company, Second Platoon."

Of course, that only Earth numbers its "fleets" is also just as likely, especially if other races draw on different traditions for their forces and, say, Tellarite ships are actually arranged in something more similar to the bomber formations in WW-II (the Tellarite flagship might be the "Pigley Wigley" after the pilot's nickname, the leading vessel of the 59th squadron, seventh wing, 8th Tellarite air force).

What redeployments?

Elements of three fleets were to be moved to Bajor in "Favor the Bold", and only one was identified with a previous mission relating to Earth; one was apprently commanded by a Vulcan, one by a human. None were implied to have been part of the DS9 theater of operations previously, and indeed the implication was the opposite.

Implication was that they were all engaged "elsewhere" in the same sector (or else redeploying them would have been rather difficult from a Federation "spread across 8000 light years"). I was wondering if you were referring to ANDORIAN or other fleets being redeployed to Bajor, but this pretty much never happens. The likely reason is that these forces are simply too far away, or otherwise too heavily engaged on another front to spare the ships in time. After all, it was difficult enough just to get the Klingons involved.

So Starfleet does move its numbered fleets around, making it a bit weird if no "ethnic" elements ever came in contact with our DS9 heroes.

Again, why would they? The Bajor front was mostly left to Starfleet for the duration of the war. Why would they suddenly start dragging ships from other fleets when Starfleet still has a massive force left to do the hard work?

Yet the Dominion withdrawal was explicitly stated to be total. There would be no battles elsewhere at all...

And we still have no idea what "total withdrawal" by the Dominion actually means. If it's anything like the Nazi version in WW-II, they would have left thousands of suicide troops behind just to piss off the Federation forces coming to reclaim those territories. And if there's one thing the Jem'hadar are always up for, it's a suicide mission.

To better facilitate the use of "segregated" stock footage, the writers did suggest that the three different nationalities would play different parts in the combat plans. But again, this dialogue didn't mention "ethnic" fleets, assign the Tellarites the left flank or the Andorians the rear guard, even when Klingons and Romulans (and later Cardassian turncoats) were given specific tasks.

No mention of ANY fleets at all are given come to think of it, except for Starfleet's. Even in WYLB, Sisko Ross and Martok behave as if only Starfleet and Klingon ships even exist here, as if the Cardassian forces that just joined with them don't even matter. I doubt other Federation members twelve sectors away would have factored into the discussion if even Cardassian and Romulan forces didn't.

The total withdrawing of all Dominion forces was expressly commanded, and apparently did take place so that those forces got to Cardassia before the UFP/KE/RSE fleet did - suggesting there would have been no major off-Cardassia holdings of the Dominion at the time of the withdrawal.

Except for holding actions fought by the Jem'hadar on their way there, complicated by the fact that we do not know from where else they were withdrawing FROM. And there's also the Breen to consider; do you suppose they withdrew from their own homeworld just to protect Cardassia? Do you suppose other Dominion allies would have as well?

Indeed, even the Breen only joined the Dominion because they specifically wanted to conquer Earth for some reason

Hmh? They wanted to conquer Cardassia, their old enemy.

Well no, they wanted to HAVE Cardassia when the Founders were done with it. Conquering Earth was a right they claimed for themselves, repeatedly and annoyingly, to the female changeling.

Really, the Dominion was a point threat initially and in the bitter end, radiating out of Cardassian space. Countering it with segregated action would make little sense.

Unless Cardassia was the only Dominion member in the AQ that Starfleet was worried about. Actually, it seems humans are the only ones who have ever had a problem with the Cardassians (except the Bajorans) in the Federation, since only human colonies seem to get caught up in the DMZ after the Cardassian wars. If a few other races also joined the Dominion, it wouldn't be a point threat anymore, it would again become Axis vs. Allies.

There would have been fighting everywhere at some stages of the war

There's no concrete evidence that there weren't. Only that Sisko and company were mostly concerned with the action around Bajor and Cardassia. We have no idea what the Dominion were up to outside of that sphere of operations.

The "ethnic" forces, if they existed, would probably have insisted on being present at the end

They were. Just that nobody except Odo knew the war was going to end on Cardassia, right then and there.

 

[Sci]

The Earth branch of Starfleet is all we ever saw in DS9

We don't know that - all we know is that one fleet formerly tasked with Earth protection (and by no means established as part of an "Earth branch") was among the many elements present in the DS9 battles.

So "The fleet that is formerly tasked with Earth protection" is not necessarily "Earth branch."

In other news, the bird that has webbed feet, feathers, a duck bill and quacks is not necessarily a duck.

I think what Timo is saying is that just because there is a fleet within Starfleet dedicated to defending Earth, does not mean that that fleet answers to Earth's government. If the United States Navy has a fleet of ships dedicated to providing naval defense for the State of California, for instance, this does not mean that that fleet answers to the government of California. It is a "California fleet" only in terms of who they're defending, not in terms of who they answer to; they're still answerable to the United States government, not the California government.

Of course, that only Earth numbers its "fleets" is also just as likely, especially if other races draw on different traditions for their forces and, say, Tellarite ships are actually arranged in something more similar to the bomber formations in WW-II (the Tellarite flagship might be the "Pigley Wigley" after the pilot's nickname, the leading vessel of the 59th squadron, seventh wing, 8th Tellarite air force).

This relies on the assumption that there is even a such thing as a "Tellarite fleet" within Starfleet -- something of which there is no evidence.

The episode "Rapture" was very clear: When a world enters the Federation, its military gets absorbed into Starfleet. Now, whether that means that they exist as a subsidiary service to the Federation Starfleet in the same way that the U.S. states maintain their National Guards, or that they cease to legally exist and Starfleet takes over everything, is unestablished.

But either way, it's pretty obvious that even if Federation Member States continue to maintain native space services, they do so as a subsidiary service to the Federation Starfleet and that the Federation Starfleet defends the entire Federation, answering to the Federation government, not the Earth government.

 

[Matt4511]

In reference to earlier discussion re: Klingon victory over the UFP a la Yesterday's Enterprise --

While I'll grant that the exact timeline of such events is a bit fuzzy in the canon, it is likely that for much/most/all of the 20 years that the Federation was battling the Klingon Empire, it was also in a war against the Cardassian Union. We know the Cardassian Wars were roughly in that time period, and I see no reason to assume that Romulan attack on a Klingon colony would change that.

Indeed, if Starfleet was forced to continually divert combatants to the Klingon front, and away from the Cardassian border, the wars likely went on longer, and saw increased assertiveness by the Union, as they sensed the Federation's weakness.

The Empire and the Union wouldn't need to ally, or even coordinate, to divide the Federation's attention. They'd do better if they did, but it's not necessary.

Meanwhile, other powers, notable the Romulans, could either get into the war outright, or simply parade around a lot, drawing Starfleet's attention.

Could the Klingons beat the Federation in a one on one war? I don't think so. But could the Federation successfully win wars against the Klingons and the Cardassians, while deterring the Romulans, Breed, Tholians, etc? Maybe if they fought mean, but this is the UFP here, folks. I'm sure they spent the first 10 years of the 20 year war with the Klingons fighting half-assed, hoping that the Klingons would soon get bored and agree to a peace.

And recall, the war still lasted 20 years.

That alone suggests that Starfleet has serious reserves of firepower and productive capacity, even if they're led by idiots (which canon certainly suggests).

 

[Timo]

So "The fleet that is formerly tasked with Earth protection" is not necessarily "Earth branch."

Well, clearly not, because the reassignment established that the fleet was "reassignable". Nothing mentioned in this brand of Star Trek or in any other would suggest that Earth has a permanently assigned defensive fleet - exactly to the contrary, in fact.

It's not as if the 9th Fleet was of "Bajor branch" just because it guarded Bajor. And there's no indication that the 10th Fleet, tasked with protecting Betazed, had even a single Betazoid aboard.

Or that the situation/tactical reports used by Sisko and Ross only referred to Starfleet forces and therefore omit the (in this case, superfluous) prefixes. If everyone in the room is from Charlie Company, you might say "Second Platoon," without bothering to spell out "Fourth Army, 82nd armored division, Charlie Company, Second Platoon."

You can omit bureaucracy - but that won't justify you omitting entire segments of your forces. The Second Platoon you mention would still have to acknowledge the existence of the Third Army and its divisions operating on its stretch of the front. Our heroes never do.

So we run into impossible statistics anyway. How come there never is an "ethnic" fleet where the "human" 7th or 10th has to stand alone? How come the fallback options or the slightly-out-of-range forces are always from the "human" pool of forces? Or are our heroes so racist that they flat out refuse help from the snouties and the blueballs, and prefer to lose Betazed instead of tolerating the sight of a single wiggling antenna or hoof?

Implication was that they were all engaged "elsewhere" in the same sector (or else redeploying them would have been rather difficult from a Federation "spread across 8000 light years").

Doesn't work, since redeployment from Earth to Bajor was seriously considered. If that distance is no hindrance, then the distance from Andor or Tellar couldn't be, either - almost regardless of whether Bajor is close to Earth or far away from it, because in both cases Andor or Tellar would be within equally easy or difficult reach.

The Bajor front was mostly left to Starfleet for the duration of the war.

Umm, that's borderline circular. Of the three known players in the war, both Starfleet and the Klingons were heavily involved there. There's no reason to invent additional players just to pretend that they had a reason to stay away from that location.

And we still have no idea what "total withdrawal" by the Dominion actually means. If it's anything like the Nazi version in WW-II, they would have left thousands of suicide troops behind just to piss off the Federation forces coming to reclaim those territories. And if there's one thing the Jem'hadar are always up for, it's a suicide mission.

Granted that much - but this in no way justifies leaving the "ethnics" guarding the back and only taking the purebred Earthlings to perform the significant last attack.

The Klingons and the Romulans were present in the last attack. You have yet to justify why the Starfleet elements present there, or in the vicinity of Bajor overall, would only consist of Earthlings, when even completely foreign aliens bother to haul their asses to that theater of operations.

To start with, surely Earthlings could protect Andor just as well as Andorians could protect Earth? But even if that is in doubt (say, Andorians might have some sort of a home field advantage in defensive warfare, perhaps knowing the idiosyncracies of their fortifications better, or knowing what passes for terrain in space warfare), surely both species could protect Bajor equally well. There's no good reason to claim that Andorians would be absent from Bajor short of actually stating that the "ethnic" fleets are considered unworthy of any deployments outside their home systems.

And that gets us nowhere, since we know Starfleet out there is thousands of ships strong and performs every possible job. The "ethnics" would in that interpretation be such an inconsequential element of Starfleet that they shouldn't even be considered part of it; at most, they could run "Mars Perimeter Defense" style peashooter defenses and nothing more lest they be in contradiction of the evidence.

Even in WYLB, Sisko Ross and Martok behave as if only Starfleet and Klingon ships even exist here, as if the Cardassian forces that just joined with them don't even matter.

The Cardassians were the only non-preplanned element of that action. Obviously, it would take quite some time to integrate them to the chain of command - or even to figure out what their own command structure was, what their forces were, and what they could do. None of that would apply to the putative "ethnic" fleets.

So the final battle, like the others, would still stand proof to one of the following: 1) if "ethnic" forces exist, they are completely integrated to the overall forces, operating identical hardware, following the same set of leaders, or 2) if "ethnic" forces exist, they aren't considered combatworthy in any situation, be it a desperate hour or a carefully preplanned sortie.

cept for holding actions fought by the Jem'hadar on their way there, complicated by the fact that we do not know from where else they were withdrawing FROM. And there's also the Breen to consider; do you suppose they withdrew from their own homeworld just to protect Cardassia? Do you suppose other Dominion allies would have as well?

The allies no doubt stayed back at this moment of their alliances being called to serious question. But the plot was explicit about all the Dominion forces indeed having been recalled, and very implicit about the retreat having been successful. After all, there was absolutely no mention of forces remaining behind the Alphans' backs, even though this should have been a major consideration.

Ross is explicit after the climatic battle: "Ben, we've driven the Dominion back into Cardassia Prime. We can keep them bottled up there indefinitely." The only challenge to that comes from the idea that the Dominion could rebuild, not from the idea that they would continue their evildoing on other theaters. There's no Manchuria for Dominion's Japanese mainland. There is Breen territory, yes, but that is not included in any threat analysis by our heroes, and probably rightly so.

Conquering Earth was a right they claimed for themselves

They did that once, in "What You Leave Behind"; the planet was something like third down their list. They simply seemed to be insisting that they reap all the possible benefits of the war. And why not, since the only other player left in the field would be Dominion itself?

It's a very specific situation where they make those demands, too. They are on the losing side at the time, and they know it. They can make any demand they wish for payment for their loyalty now, so naturally they should settle for nothing less than all the homeworlds of all their enemies. Doesn't mean they had any prior strategic ambition towards Earth. None was ever indicated in DS9 or TNG, either.

Actually, it seems humans are the only ones who have ever had a problem with the Cardassians (except the Bajorans) in the Federation, since only human colonies seem to get caught up in the DMZ after the Cardassian wars.

Hmm. They are always called "Federation colonies", and the Maquis certainly feature their fair share of Bolians...

If a few other races also joined the Dominion, it wouldn't be a point threat anymore, it would again become Axis vs. Allies.

Only the possibility of the Romulans joining the Alliance ever caused a stir in the Alpha Axis, in the sense that it would have opened up a new front. The Cardassians and the Breen together would still count as a point threat, since they were explicitly a pair of quarreling neighbors behind a stretch of Bajoran nowhere, as viewed from the UFP.

And we still have to wonder what "ethnic" battlefronts there could exist when our generic Starfleet heroes already cover everything from worrying about Bajor to worrying about Vulcan or Betazed or Bolarus to worrying about Earth or the Romulans. Sure, this leaves the Bugomites and Slimoids on those systems 8,000 ly distant to fend for themselves, and they could quite possibly have fleets of their own for the purpose. But the war didn't seem to explicitly involve any elements or fronts beyond our heroes' reach. So once again, we're left with thoroughly mariginalized "ethnics" whose participation in Starfleet might just as well be a myth told by somewhat weird old Admirals to their younger colleagues.

We have no idea what the Dominion were up to outside of that sphere of operations.

Sisko certainly was up to date on what was happening at Betazed, or the Romulan Neutral Zone. If he was concerned with those things, why wouldn't he be concerned with all other "distant" battlefields as well? Sure, our heroes acted local. But they thought global, or galactic, or whatever; we'd really need evidence that battlefields outside their personal ones existed, because those locations wouldn't merely be ones where no fights were directly mentioned - they would have to be locations not previously mentioned in Star Trek!

Just that nobody except Odo knew the war was going to end on Cardassia, right then and there.

Well, Ross was certain, once the Dominion withdrawal began; so probably was everybody else. The Female Founder was convinced of this even before the battle began, too. So the question only becomes, did the Alpha Axis want to achieve something else than total victory when they set out for that fight that prompted the withdrawal?

O'Brien was speaking as if the war would be over when daddy returned, but that could have merely been to cover the possibility that he wouldn't return at all. Worf seemed confident they'd be on Cardassia Prime and looking for Kira at the end of the battle, and for once this didn't sound like pure Klingon bravado. Kira herself had clearly been informed that an attempt to conquer the planet would be made that very day; indeed, since Kira and all the resistance knew, and a planetwide general strike had been organized, and the Founder knew, it stands to reason that there would have been no secrecy about the date or intent of the attack.

Thus, the Founder would have had every reason to cease activity on other fronts and concentrate her defenses. If the Axis were that confident about their attack, not the least concerned with secrecy (which may have been impossible to maintain anyway), then they clearly had the upper hand, or at least the Dominion was supposed to think they had.

If the Founder had an alternate plan for riding it out, perhaps a strike at the back of the enemy, then this should have been the main point of the entire episode. Instead, the episode concentrated on an all-eggs-in-one-basket fight on both sides of the lines, clearly denoting an endgame.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

Could the Klingons beat the Federation in a one on one war? I don't think so.

Why not? Our TOS heroes certainly thought the Klingons were a worthy adversary. And they kept on thinking that way right until ST6:TUC, where something changed, at least for a few hothead military leaders. And then we learned that what had changed was the introduction of a conspiracy that would weaken the enemy and make it susceptible to defeat in war - a weird "joint" conspiracy where both sides seemed to think this would happen in their favor!

There isn't much indication that the Klingons would not be a threat capable of crushing the Federation. They may not be so superior that they could do it without risking their own extinction, or else they would already have done it. But nothing supports the notion that they would be hopeless underdogs, either.

Fringe action against Cardassia or other bit players may have weakened the UFP during that alt-universe war, yes. But I would argue the decisive thing would be the Romulans. In ST6, both sides were finally willing to risk war, after more than a century of restraint, apparently because the Romulans were making promises as part of the conspiracy. The same could be considered for the "Yesterday's Enterprise" war: the Romulans had gone isolationist after 2311, so at long last the other two major players could have a war without having to fear that the weakened winner would get conquered by the Romulans after his victory.

Similar logic may have launched the "Errand of Mercy" war at that specific moment. Either the Klingons wanted to have it now, before the newly emergent Romulans had a say - or then the Klingons wanted to have it because the Romulans after their recent reemergence had made a deal with the Klingon Empire (also explaining the supposed ship and technology exchange).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Matt4511]

Could the Klingons beat the Federation in a one on one war? I don't think so.

Why not? Our TOS heroes certainly thought the Klingons were a worthy adversary.

My own sense, and this is influenced partially by my own personal fanon preferences, is that the Klingon Empire has been in a state of stagnation, if not outright decay, basically for the whole period of their contact with humans. In the 22nd Century, the Klingons could crush Earth. By the 23rd, the Federation and the Empire seemed balanced - EoM and TUC are both good examples of this wary respect that they had for each other.

But I think that by the 24th Century, the Federation had surpassed them. I actually believe that by the 24th Century era of Trek, the Federation probably has more combat power than all other Alpha Quadrant powers combined, but is limited by its ability to concentrate it in any particular theatre.

For what it's worth, I also get the sense that the Federation probably got somewhat "flabby" in the early to mid 24th Century, and likely would have been screwed if it had found itself in a large-scale, sustained military conflict. Even then, however, the Federation certainly wouldn't have been the first massively powerful geopolitical entity undone by its own size. Giants with feets of clay, and all that jazz.

As to the YE conflict, Romulan involvement (or merely the threat of it) would indeed have been a major factor, but I must somewhat stubbornly insist on drawing attention back to the Union. The Romulans LIKELY were a major factor, but we KNOW the Union was actively hostile in that time frame. As well, I think there's some wiggle room in what defeat for the Federation might have meant in that war. Certainly Picard's bleak musings of the Federation being forced to surrender within months suggested that Klingon troops would soon be raping and pillaging in an Earth village near you, but surrender could mean different things.

In that alt-uni war, a Federation surrender to the Klingons might not have meant submitting to dissolution and total occupation, but might have meant a series of brutal, humiliating, and ultimately neutering concessions. Vast territorial regions being turned over, a largely demobilized fleet, financial payments, whatever. The surrender Picard feared was six months down the road might have left a nominally independent Federation, but one clearly eclipsed in power and influence by the sole superpower centred on Qo'noS.

All hypothetical, of course. Like I said, a lot of this reflects merely my own personal fanon, but I think most if not all of my ideas are defensible in terms of the canon, though no doubt there are plenty of equally defensible ways to prove me wrong. That's the fun of it.

Edit -

Timo, a small addition in response to your musings. I concur that the Star Empire and the Empire were emboldened by the alliance of the 23rd Century, and the technology and ship design exchanges, but I also see that as a reason to consider the Federation as the true emerging power then. The Klingons are a martial race, expanionist at heart, and the Romulans are certainly hostile to the Vulcans, Earth, and the Federation collectively. I think if at the time of their alliance in the 23rd Century, they had been even reasonably confident in their ability to make war against the Federation, that they would have. This backs up my sense that by the 23rd Century, the Federation was powerful enough to at least fight a defensive war against both at the same time with a good chance of victory.

By the 24th Century, the raw power of Starfleet, however flabby and poorly led, had been rendered somewhat moot by what I think of as the eighties-esque conception of the Federation - dopey hippy happy, all the time. It wasn't until the Borg, and really the Dominion, that Starfleet remembered that it had balls. In my humble opinion, of course.

 

[Timo]

I don't have any basis or desire to argue against your main points, since they definitely are arguable both ways. The Klingon star really might be a descending one, even though our TNG heroes still seem outright terrified of them throughout the first couple of seasons.

Just a few alternate takes on details:

we KNOW the Union was actively hostile in that time frame

Yet we also know that they could be "actively hostile" without the UFP really even noticing - they were that pathetic. We never heard of the ongoing war before "The Wounded" told that one had existed during the early TNG seasons. That episode also showed that a Cardassian capital ship at its worst and angriest didn't as much as tickle a Starfleet vessel. Tales of Cardassian victories were nil; we only heard of their "militia" raiding an undefended colony at Setlik III once, apparently before the actual war. They did go for a rematch, it seems, as the next time we heard of Setlik, O'Brien was driving back entire regiments of Cardassians there ("Empok Nor"). But they didn't appear a serious threat even then; O'Brien's tales of the "border wars" seem to come as curious news to all our other heroes, none of whom had any history with the supposedly hostile species.

This is why I consider the CU a bit player, even though it did remarkable things in the Dominion War under the right tutelage and backup. Even the defensive victory against the Klingons earlier on didn't appear too impressive; it was more like the Greek or Finnish victories in WWII, with a puny opponent delaying the inevitable a few weeks. The delays changed the course of the entire war, sure, but that didn't make the nations any less puny.

The surrender Picard feared was six months down the road might have left a nominally independent Federation, but one clearly eclipsed in power and influence by the sole superpower centred on Qo'noS.

This sounds perfectly possible - our alt-Picard would have been justified in being desperate, covering up the horrible truth and grasping at straws even in this situation. That is, unless he were much more battle-hardened and cynical than our regular Picard, which is by no means necessary.

Still, Klingons are famed for being brutes, taking no prisoners, and other such nonsense that isn't literally true but must have a basis in fact. If they decided they could finally go to war, after centuries of waiting, I doubt they would go for anything short of broke.

I think if at the time of their alliance in the 23rd Century, they had been even reasonably confident in their ability to make war against the Federation, that they would have. This backs up my sense that by the 23rd Century, the Federation was powerful enough to at least fight a defensive war against both at the same time with a good chance of victory.

Yet the Klingons did go to war in the 23rd century.

And they were stopped by a very specific factor - the Organians. The Feds might have stopped voluntarily enough, but for the Klingons to stop and remain stopped, the Organian influence had to amount to something big. This big thing might not go away until a decade or two later, thus delaying the Klingons past the point where the circumstances would be favorable (i.e. the agreement with the Romulans would collapse, as it apparently did before TUC, or before Kor had his battle with Romulans, bragged about in "Blood Oath", in the early 2270s). So the next attempt would have to wait for a new understanding with Romulan conspirators...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Pauln6]

I don't think that the Romulans or Klingons were ever capable to crushing the entire Federation en masse but we have to remember that space is big, and the Federation is spread across a vast area, with non-federation (some hostile) space lying in between members' space. It is very likely that member worlds close to border territories would be vulnerable. It's all very well knowing that the Klingon fleet is approaching a planet, but how many ships do they have in the quadrant and how many people might die before they could do anything about it? How many other hostile systems might take advantage of the situation and to what extent can the Federation afford to leave themselves open. The Roman Empire crumbled due to logistics as much as anything else.

 

[Matt4511]

even though our TNG heroes still seem outright terrified of them throughout the first couple of seasons.

Yes, they seemed almost as frightening as the Ferengi.

This is why I consider the CU a bit player, even though it did remarkable things in the Dominion War under the right tutelage and backup. Even the defensive victory against the Klingons earlier on didn't appear too impressive; it was more like the Greek or Finnish victories in WWII, with a puny opponent delaying the inevitable a few weeks. The delays changed the course of the entire war, sure, but that didn't make the nations any less puny.

The role the Union plays is...unclear. My own personal sense is that they are the biggest of the minor powers, even though they consider themselves the smallest of the major powers. But while I totally grant all your comments about how easily the Federation seems to win one-on-one engagements, they were portrayed VERY haphazardly, with whether or not the Union was a major threat varying by episode. Again my own fanon preconceptions, I conceive of them as being a fairly large empire geographically, but with technology lagging anywhere from 50-100 years behind the cutting edge. Like the Federation coming up against its own self, 100 years prior.

Still, Klingons are famed for being brutes, taking no prisoners, and other such nonsense that isn't literally true but must have a basis in fact. If they decided they could finally go to war, after centuries of waiting, I doubt they would go for anything short of broke.

Brutes, perhaps, but not fools. Occupying the Federation would be a massive undertaking. Far better to slake the Empire's thirst for conquest in a long, victorious war against them, absorb the sectors most directly valuable to the goals of the Empire, and keep the vastly reduced Federation under heel while the empire rests and consolidates. They can always renew their drive again later, after all.

Yet the Klingons did go to war in the 23rd century.

But, not every war must be a fight to the finish. They might have gone to war to secure a handful of sectors, knowing the Federation's principles would rule out a crushing, general counteroffensive. Fighting the Federation in border wars mus be easy. If you can win, you win. If you lose, you go back to the way you were, and plot some more.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I think what Timo is saying is that just because there is a fleet within Starfleet dedicated to defending Earth, does not mean that that fleet answers to Earth's government.

Nobody's saying that either. Obviously, the Earth branch of Starfleet answers to the Federation. But it is the EARTH branch, and therefore has their command structure and headquarters based primarily on Earth, tasked with the defense of Earth outposts and colonies. Otherwise, you'd almost think that nobody else in the Federation even HAS colonies (all we ever saw in three seasons of TOS and seven of TNG were Earth colonies. Doesn't anyone else colonize space besides humans?)

This relies on the assumption that there is even a such thing as a "Tellarite fleet" within Starfleet -- something of which there is no evidence.

To be sure, it would be outside of what we call "Starfleet."

The episode "Rapture" was very clear: When a world enters the Federation, its military gets absorbed into Starfleet.

Actually, I believe the operative word was "probably" and then in regard to the Bajoran militia. I don't think the final disposition had been established yet, and Kira would be the last to know if it was.

 

[Timo]

Yes, they seemed almost as frightening as the Ferengi.

During the first season, our heroes frightened ignorant natives with tales of the Ferengi. In "Heart of Glory", or as late as "Matter of Honor", they frightened themselves with tales of the Klingons, even when they had a domesticated specimen on their own bridge... Apparently, in this particular case, unfamiliarity bred contempt (and deservedly so), while familiarity kept fostering fear and distrust (perhaps undeservedly so - but the Klingon "allies" were indeed credited with raiding UFP facilities less than a decade before TNG, in "Aquiel").

My own personal sense is that they are the biggest of the minor powers, even though they consider themselves the smallest of the major powers.

Actually, I believe I agree with every one of your views on the Cardassians... And that was quite succinctly put, btw.

Far better to slake the Empire's thirst for conquest in a long, victorious war against them, absorb the sectors most directly valuable to the goals of the Empire, and keep the vastly reduced Federation under heel while the empire rests and consolidates. They can always renew their drive again later, after all.

Sure. But at some point, they might go for the stratagem of neutering their competitor once and for all. Especially if they saw their own star as a descending one; the early 24th century war might have been one of desperate annihilation, with the Empire doing as much damage to the UFP as possible, hoping to kill it before it rotted the Empire's guts like a spider injecting its venom and then sucked it empty.

Whether the war in "Errand of Mercy" had such desperate scope is unknown. More probably, the Klingons were on an optimistic mood back then, and ready to use war as an extension of diplomacy in the classic manner. But would they have stopped short of bombarding Earth to rubble, if the opportunity arose? Their bushido code seems to work in inverse relation to their success in galactic conquest: probably they rant about "honor" only when things go badly and the warrior class needs to be rigorously controlled by silly codes, and switch back to full devious-ruthless mode whenever the Empire is faring well and its warriors are happy (such as in "Way of the Warrior"). So the "Errand of Mercy" war might have been bad news for the Federation... Although for reasons exactly opposite to the ones behind the "Yesterday's Enterprise" one.

But it is the EARTH branch, and therefore has their command structure and headquarters based primarily on Earth, tasked with the defense of Earth outposts and colonies.

One wonders, then, why Earth ships would be sent to fight for/about Bajor... And if Earth ships can get such general assignments, why can't Tellarite or Andorian ones?

Actually, I believe the operative word was "probably" and then in regard to the Bajoran militia.

I don't think Admiral Whatley used that word anywhere.

Whatley: "Now, Bajor's admission is only the beginning. Now comes the hard part. Federation council members have to be chosen, the Bajoran militia has to be absorbed into Starfleet. There are thousands of details that have to be overseen and you're our point man here."

Doesn't sound as if Sisko had any leeway on the issue - on any of the issues. He was merely the overseeing executive, and there weren't any actual decisions to be made, only rules and regulations to be followed.

This could be a special case for Bajor, yes. But the way Whatley rattles off the things-to-do makes it sound as if this is SOP all the way.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sci]

I think what Timo is saying is that just because there is a fleet within Starfleet dedicated to defending Earth, does not mean that that fleet answers to Earth's government.

Nobody's saying that either. Obviously, the Earth branch of Starfleet answers to the Federation. But it is the EARTH branch, and therefore has their command structure and headquarters based primarily on Earth, tasked with the defense of Earth outposts and colonies.

What makes you think that the branch of Starfleet dedicated to defending Earth uses a different command structure than any other branch of Starfleet?

Otherwise, you'd almost think that nobody else in the Federation even HAS colonies (all we ever saw in three seasons of TOS and seven of TNG were Earth colonies. Doesn't anyone else colonize space besides humans?)

A lot of those colonies were referred to as "Federation colonies" and happened to feature colonists who were biological Humans. But that doesn't mean they were from United Earth -- they could have been the descendants of Humans who emigrated to Tellar and gain Tellarite citizenship before moving to the new colony for all we know.

This relies on the assumption that there is even a such thing as a "Tellarite fleet" within Starfleet -- something of which there is no evidence.

To be sure, it would be outside of what we call "Starfleet."

Why's that? The only way I can see that is if the Tellarite space service continued as a subsidiary service a la a state's National Guard. I certainly see no reason to think that Starfleet wouldn't remain the Federation-wide defense force bearing primary responsibility for defending everyone.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

So "The fleet that is formerly tasked with Earth protection" is not necessarily "Earth branch."

Well, clearly not, because the reassignment established that the fleet was "reassignable". Nothing mentioned in this brand of Star Trek or in any other would suggest that Earth has a permanently assigned defensive fleet - exactly to the contrary, in fact.

All of which is beside the point. Why would we expect a non-human fleet to be assigned to defend Earth, even on a temporary basis? We heard little to nothing about Starfleet defensive actions of Andor or even Vulcan. In fact, I am now reminded that in the entire history of Trek, it's been all but openly stated that Starfleet has almost no permanent presence on Vulcan in the first place (the Vulcans, having recently found out they are pacifists, don't have a fleet of their own).

Since it's of the utmost relevance to this point, I'll ask it again: since Vulcan does not have a fleet of its own, why does Starfleet have almost no presence there to make up for it? It's likely they have a similarly non-existent presence in the Andorian and Tellarite sectors, except the Andorians may still have their own fleet and wouldn't need Starfleet to guard them if something went wrong.

It's not as if the 9th Fleet was of "Bajor branch"

No, it was the Earth branch. Bajor was part of their jurisdication, as a matter of cosmic geography.

And there's no indication that the 10th Fleet, tasked with protecting Betazed, had even a single Betazoid aboard.

There's no indication they were tasked with protecting Betazed at all. It's just as likely they were the only task force within range to reinforce the Betazed after they were defeated.

You can omit bureaucracy - but that won't justify you omitting entire segments of your forces. The Second Platoon you mention would still have to acknowledge the existence of the Third Army and its divisions operating on its stretch of the front.

Emphasis mine. There is no indication at all that Starfleet's stretch of the front was the entire theatre of the war. It probably wasn't, in which case there's no need to mention forces fighting on other fronts.

 

[Sci]

All of which is beside the point. Why would we expect a non-human fleet to be assigned to defend Earth, even on a temporary basis?

Because they're all Federates. The Federation isn't an association of independent worlds, it's a state in its own right, to which all of the worlds that wished to join yielded their sovereignty. I outlined some of the reasons we can see that here.

We heard little to nothing about Starfleet defensive actions of Andor or even Vulcan.

"Favor the Bold" made it clear that Starfleet had fleets permanently assigned to defend both Vulcan and Andor.

In fact, I am now reminded that in the entire history of Trek, it's been all but openly stated that Starfleet has almost no permanent presence on Vulcan in the first place

This has never been stated or implied.

It's likely they have a similarly non-existent presence in the Andorian and Tellarite sectors, except the Andorians may still have their own fleet and wouldn't need Starfleet to guard them if something went wrong.

This is flatly contradicted by "Favor the Bold," and has no evidence to support it.

And there's no indication that the 10th Fleet, tasked with protecting Betazed, had even a single Betazoid aboard.

There's no indication they were tasked with protecting Betazed at all.

Um, yes there is. When asked how Betazed could have fallen, Sisko explains that the 10th Fleet was caught during training exercises out of system. That would be utterly superfluous information if the 10th Fleet was not permanently assigned to defend Betazed.

 

[Unicron]

Perhaps the member states still have partial autonomy to a degree, somewhat analogous to the separation of powers between the states and the central government in the American system. At the very least, I'm not sure it would make sense to require members to surrender full sovereignty to the state, because then they're potentially screwed if the leadership of that state ever becomes corrupt. That's why the U.S. Constitution is built around a balance of power rather than favoring either the states or the Federal government.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

One wonders, then, why Earth ships would be sent to fight for/about Bajor... And if Earth ships can get such general assignments, why can't Tellarite or Andorian ones?

Is Bajor is a general assignment? Or are there some undisclosed historical/economic/political ties between Earth and Bajor? Or is it simple proximity; it is apparently possible to make the Earth-Bajor run at Warp 8 in about four days. If Cardassia is within spitting distance as implied in the DS9 manual, then Bajor/Cardassia would be considered Earth's "back yard", with that stretch of the front being closest to their bases and command stations requiring minimal overlap and logistical shuffling.

Really, it would be like the counter offensive in War of the Worlds; the machines that land in America are engaged mostly by American forces, and why would you expect Soviet planes and tanks to be airlifted to the U.S. instead of dealing with the tripods on their own soil?

Doesn't sound as if Sisko had any leeway on the issue - on any of the issues.

I was referring to Kira's statements, but that may have come in a different episode. Either way, the Miltia's "absorption" into Starfleet should not be interpretted as a disbandment as such; with Bajor's almost legendary pride, I severely doubt they would submit to turning in Bajoran uniforms, weapons, equipment and customs for those of an alien race they have only known for a handful of years. That "absorption" would more likely involve a unification of the command structure such that Bajor's upper echelons are now equipped and configured to handle generlized directives from the Federation Council.

What makes you think that the branch of Starfleet dedicated to defending Earth uses a different command structure than any other branch of Starfleet?

They're not. They're using the same command structure as the rest of the Earth branch of Starfleet, which is to say, the branch from whose perspective we have experienced the trekiverse since TOS. Whether other fleets exist, and whether those other fleets refer to their forces as part of "Starfleet," remains unclear.

A lot of those colonies were referred to as "Federation colonies" and happened to feature colonists who were biological Humans.

Indeed. And yet we rarely saw colonies whose populations were composed primarily of non-humans. The most likely explanation is that Enterprise, like all ships in the Earth branch, placed supervision and patrol of Earth colonies as one of their priorities. Interplanetary efforts would obviously be included in this (memory alpha, for example) but if something went wrong on an alien colony, Starfleet Command would probably pass the situation along to the nearest Federation ship from the appropriate world (except for special or time-sensitive situations, as with the Medusans).

Why's that?

Because Tellarite ships would probably be of somewhat different design than their Earth counterparts, with different command structure and rules of conduct. Tellarite culture and psychology is so incredibly different it's profoundly unlikely they would ever be allowed anywhere near Starfleet headquarters, let alone Starfleet Academy. The only viable options, then, are to either unilaterally exclude the Tellarites from any and all military deep space activity (a mind-numbingly racist policy even by Picard's sanctimonious standards) or allow them to maintain their own fleet according to their own conventions and rules.

I certainly see no reason to think that Starfleet wouldn't remain the Federation-wide defense force bearing primary responsibility for defending everyone.

Neither would I, except by this time I still believe "Starfleet" refers first and foremost to the command structure that coordinates the efforts of various fleets, as well as to the Earth Branch of the fleet, for historical as well as practical reasons (the fact that "Earth Starfleet" only existed for a handful of years before it was placed under Federal control?)

Because they're all Federates. The Federation isn't an association of independent worlds, it's a state in its own right

Begging the question: is it a state, or is it an association of independent worlds? Even in a bonafide state the question of "States Rights" is an issue, and this for a country where even the oldest states are only slightly older than the Federal union they belong to. The Federation of Planets is a collection of worlds that were independent for thousands of years, and if "Amok Time" is any indication, still retain a ridiculous amount of local autonomy. It makes no sense that independent races that only recently MET each other, who do not even share the same planet together, would begin to associate themselves primarily as members of an interplanetary superstate and not first and foremost as members of a species that has many allies.

I would just as soon expect 150 posters on TrekBBS to begin referring to one another as "brothers and sisters" and part of a loyal extended family. Yes, we're all united by common goals and a unity under a central command structure (the moderators) and we may all buy the same products from the same sources or trade products and information between us; beyond that, there are no historical, traditional or organization ties between any of us, and the unity we have here ends at the BBS. For the same reason, and demonstrably so, the unity of Federation worlds ends at the Federation Council.

"Favor the Bold" made it clear that Starfleet had fleets permanently assigned to defend both Vulcan and Andor.

At least in the case of Andor these are pretty much guaranteed to be Andorian ships.

This has never been stated or implied.

It is implied in Amok Time, Gambit, and STXI, all three instances would have rendered the prevailing situation immensely silly if a Starfleet base (with its own contingent of vessels) existed in orbit of the planet. And Sela stops just short of stating this outright, since the entire "using civilian ships to land invasion troops" plan depends on those troops being able to capture and hold ground and then fortify their positions before Starfleet forces could arrive to dig them out. That plan goes all to hell if a Starfleet presence is already there that can stamp out the invasion before they can go anywhere. The same also occurs in STXI, where Nero has no trouble at all pulling into orbit of Vulcan and drilling holes in the planet, but apparently needs to get the access codes to the defense system to pull the same trick on Earth.

This is flatly contradicted by "Favor the Bold," and has no evidence to support it.

"Favor the Bold" does nothing of the kind. The only reference even similar to this is when Damar states "The fifth fleet has pulled back from fighting along the Vulcan Border." Again, this is 100 years after Spock and Sarek both state that Vulcans are now pacifists and don't operate warships anymore. No mention of Andor or Tellar is ever made.

Likewise, the Klingons were extremely reluctant to commit their ships to the battle, and they very nearly didn't, fearing that the action would leave the Empire vulnerable to attack. Starfleet had the same concerns regarding Earth... not Vulcan, not Andor, not Tellar, not Bolia, not Betazed, not Delta-IV, not Tandar, but EARTH. Sisko convinced them to go along with it, stating that the Dominion would not risk DS9 to invade Earth, but this then leaves one to wonder why Starfleet didn't seem to give a shit what happened to other Federation members... UNLESS they redeployment only put Earth at risk, because it was a tactical decision that only involved the Earth branch of the Federation's Starfleet. Besides, if Andor and Tellar are even farther from Bajor than Earth and Qo'nos, then their non-participation is a combination of 1) can't make it in time and 2) can't risk invasion.

Um, yes there is. When asked how Betazed could have fallen, Sisko explains that the 10th Fleet was caught during training exercises out of system.

"Assigned to protect Betazed" and "generally known to be patrolling the area" are not identical. If Enterprise is "the only ship in the quadrant" when it goes to Regula-1, is this because its home port is Space Lab Regula 1?

That would be utterly superfluous information if the 10th Fleet was not permanently assigned to defend Betazed.

Unless it was known the 10th fleet was in the area and Starfleet thought that angle was well covered. Given the ease with which a Ferengi marauder can abduct people from their planet, it does not seem that Betazed is a major Starfleet post either.

 

[Arpy]

"Yesterday's Enterprise" doesn't sit well with me either. I like to think the Klingons had a head start on the Federation, having conquered adequate resources before its founding to make their victory feasible. Besides, the Federation flagship up and dropped out of the universe - no fair. We later found out that the entire planet had been unified by Khaless, and cast off technologically advanced alien occupiers, both before the Federation and that fits in nicely with my imaginings.

It also wasn't just the Cardassians the Feds fought in the intervening years either but also the Talarians and the Tzenkethi. Given a weakened Federation, any number of other adversaries may have joined in the fight, for utter conquest or territorial pickings - the Tholians, Sheliak, Gorn, Miradorn, Breen...Kinshaya, Grigari...others? Maybe even the Romulans themselves, figuring they'd sweep up both the Feds and the Klingons if both sufficiently weaken each other after decades of war while they sat back and prospered, only pecking, possibly secretly, wherever they found one side was making too much progress. ...Bloody Romulans. Though maybe none of those guys made any moves at all.

In the end though, in our timeline, I think it's just a matter of time until the Klingons are surpassed by an ever more quickly scientifically ascending Federation - won't matter how many horsemen with swords your enemy has when you've just invented the F-16.

 

[Sci]

Doesn't sound as if Sisko had any leeway on the issue - on any of the issues.

I was referring to Kira's statements, but that may have come in a different episode. Either way, the Miltia's "absorption" into Starfleet should not be interpretted as a disbandment as such;

I'd agree that the Bajoran Militia might still exist and function within the Bajoran system, but just as the Ohio National Guard can't operate outside of Ohio without being called into Federal service, I doubt the Bajoran Militia could operate outside of the Bajoran system without being called into Federation service, serving as Starfleet ships.

with Bajor's almost legendary pride, I severely doubt they would submit to turning in Bajoran uniforms, weapons, equipment and customs for those of an alien race they have only known for a handful of years.

What makes you think the Bajorans hadn't been in contact with the Federation long before the Occupation? Bajor and the UFP might have been in contact with the Federation as long ago as Kirk's time.

That "absorption" would more likely involve a unification of the command structure such that Bajor's upper echelons are now equipped and configured to handle generlized directives from the Federation Council.

Or, rather, the Militia's command structure being integrated into Starfleet Command's infrastructure.

They're not. They're using the same command structure as the rest of the Earth branch of Starfleet, which is to say, the branch from whose perspective we have experienced the trekiverse since TOS. Whether other fleets exist, and whether those other fleets refer to their forces as part of "Starfleet," remains unclear.

They're not. They're using the same command structure as the rest of the Earth branch of Starfleet, which is to say, the branch from whose perspective we have experienced the trekiverse since TOS. Whether other fleets exist, and whether those other fleets refer to their forces as part of "Starfleet," remains unclear.

I think it's pretty clear, actually. Once the writers actually created the Federation in "Arena," we never saw the Enterprise referred to as an Earth ship again, nor did we ever see any of the other crews called Earth crews. They were just Federation starships -- and further, the Federation was retconned into having existed long before TOS, thus invalidating references to the Enterprise as a United Earth ship in early TOS.

In other words, in all the 700-some-odd hours since "Arena," we've only ever heard them called Federation starships or Federation starbases. I think it's pretty clear between this and "Rapture" 's reference to the Bajoran Militia being absorbed into Starfleet that Member State space services either do not exist or serve so minor or local a role as to be irrelevant.

A lot of those colonies were referred to as "Federation colonies" and happened to feature colonists who were biological Humans.

Indeed. And yet we rarely saw colonies whose populations were composed primarily of non-humans. The most likely explanation is that Enterprise, like all ships in the Earth branch, placed supervision and patrol of Earth colonies as one of their priorities.

We don't know this at all. As I noted, we don't even know if those Humans were United Earth citizens. For all we know, those Federation colonies might have had no political ties to Earth at all. And there's certainly no evidence that the Enterprise is part of any "Earth branch" of Starfleet.

This relies on the assumption that there is even a such thing as a "Tellarite fleet" within Starfleet -- something of which there is no evidence.

To be sure, it would be outside of what we call "Starfleet."

Why's that?

Because Tellarite ships would probably be of somewhat different design than their Earth counterparts,

There is no evidence that the Starfleet ships we've seen in TOS, TNG, DS9, or VOY were "Earth ships," nor have we ever seen any evidence that the Federation makes use of non-Starfleet ships, nor that ships built in other parts of the Federation would be of non-Starfleet standard designs.

with different command structure and rules of conduct.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Tellarites, or any other Federation species, use a different organization to defend themselves with any different command structures; the evidence we have indicate that Starfleet defends it all, just like the U.S. Armed Forces cover the entire U.S. and not just Virginia.

Tellarite culture and psychology is so incredibly different it's profoundly unlikely they would ever be allowed anywhere near Starfleet headquarters, let alone Starfleet Academy.

Says who? Starfleet culture is naturally going to be a very different kind of operational culture than any of the worlds its officers come from; that's why you get four years of Academy training: To break you of your native culture and rebuild you into the Starfleet operational culture.

You know, like militaries do today.

I certainly see no reason to think that Starfleet wouldn't remain the Federation-wide defense force bearing primary responsibility for defending everyone.

Neither would I, except by this time I still believe "Starfleet" refers first and foremost to the command structure that coordinates the efforts of various fleets,

But there's no evidence of this.

as well as to the Earth Branch of the fleet, for historical as well as practical reasons (the fact that "Earth Starfleet" only existed for a handful of years before it was placed under Federal control?)

What makes you think the United Earth Starfleet is any more the same organization as the Federation Starfleet than the Pennsylvania State Navy was the same organization as the United States Navy? Sure, they both use the word "Starfleet" in their names, but the PSN and USN both use the word "Navy" in their names; they're still legally separate organizations.

There's no particular reason to think that the United Earth Starfleet didn't just cease to exist, with its ships and bases immediately handed over to the new Federation Starfleet -- which I would theorize also happened to the Vulcan Defense Force, Andorian Imperial Guard, and Tellarite space force.

Because they're all Federates. The Federation isn't an association of independent worlds, it's a state in its own right

Begging the question: is it a state, or is it an association of independent worlds?

It's a state.

We see the Federation Council pass legislation banning travel above Warp 5 throughout the entire UFP in TNG's "Forces of Nature;" no alliance would have that authority. We see the Federation President making foreign policy for the entire UFP (rather than contacting each individual Member State and gaining their input) in Star Trek VI. We see the Federation President issuing orders to the Federation Starfleet, the Federation's military, in "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost," and hear the President referred to as the elected commander-in-chief of Starfleet -- alliances do not have militaries like this.

We see the Federation Starfleet instituting a system of martial law on Earth in DS9's "Homefront/Paradise Lost,", a Federation Member State, at the order of the Federation President. States have the authority to put their constituent polities under martial law; alliances do not.

The legislative nature of the Federation Council is re-enforced with references to the Council debating over whether or not to ratify the Federation-Cardassian Treaty in TNG's "Journey's End;" treaty ratification, in addition to once again establishing the Federation's authority to conduct foreign affairs and making binding law over its Member worlds, treaty ratification is a clear trait of a state's legislature. With these episodes, then, it becomes clear that the Federation Council is a legislature.

The DS9 episode "The Ascent" establishes that Quark has to travel to a Federation world to deliver testimony to a Federation Grand Jury against a suspected member of the Orion Syndicate. Alliances don't operate grand juries; states do.

Another DS9 episode, "Dr. Bashir, I Presume?," establishes that the Federation Supreme Court is the court of last resort in the UFP. Again, alliances don't have Supreme Courts capable of exercising judicial review over the law -- states do.

A later DS9 episode, "Extreme Measures," further establishes the existence of a Federation Cabinet. This would seem to be the final nail in the coffin of any view other than that of the Federation as an interstellar state; states have cabinets, alliances do not.

One of the primary traits of a state is that all politics references or flows back to the state itself; authority is derived from the state. We've already seen other state-like traits by the time of TNG/DS9 -- it controls a specific territory, it has the monopoly on the legitimate use of violence, it is recognized by other interstellar states such as the Klingon Empire, etc. The state nature of the Federation is further driven home in TNG/DS9 through numerous references to authoritative Federation governmental bodies:

- Federation Archaeological Council
- Federation Astronomical Committee
- Federation Bureau of Agricultural Affairs
- Federation Bureau of Industrialization
- Federation Bureau of Planetary Treaties
- Federation Central Bureau of Penology
- Federation Department of Cartography
- Federation Department of Temporal Investigations
- Federation Naval Patrol
- Federation Science Council
- Federation Science Bureau

Clearly, all relevant bureaucracy is built around the Federation by this point -- another clear trait of a state.

Several episodes of TNG, DS9, and VOY also make reference to a Federation Constitution and a Federation Charter. The Federation Constitution is referenced in "The Drumhead" and "The Perfect Mate" (TNG); in "The Drumhead," it is established that the Constitution contains twelve "Gurantees" ensuring individual rights. The Seventh Guarantee is referenced, and it is clearly based on the United States Constitution's Fifth Amendment protecting suspects from being forced to give self-incriminating testimony. "Author, Author" (VOY) also refers to a Guarantee relating to artists' intellectual property rights. DS9's "Accession" establishes that the Federation Charter bans caste-based discrimination. The Charter and Constitution seem to overrule local law.

Bottom line: While it's true that the intention of the writers to depict the Federation as a state was not always so when it was first created, as I noted in the link I made to another post of mine above, the vast preponderance of evidence indicates that the Federation is a state.

It makes no sense that independent races that only recently MET each other, who do not even share the same planet together, would begin to associate themselves primarily as members of an interplanetary superstate and not first and foremost as members of a species that has many allies.

That really depends on the kinds of choices that those worlds make on the basis of their experiences, doesn't it? If they decide that union is better than independence, that they are better about to secure their rights and their safety from external threats, they'd certainly be able to create a common political identity.

Political identity is a matter of a culture's choices, not a natural phenomenon.

"Favor the Bold" made it clear that Starfleet had fleets permanently assigned to defend both Vulcan and Andor.

At least in the case of Andor these are pretty much guaranteed to be Andorian ships.

There's no evidence of this.

In fact, I am now reminded that in the entire history of Trek, it's been all but openly stated that Starfleet has almost no permanent presence on Vulcan in the first place

This has never been stated or implied.

It is implied in Amok Time,

All that's implied in "Amok Time" is that there is an organization called Vulcan Space Central coordinated interstellar traffic into and out of Vulcan orbit. For all we know, Vulcan Space Central is actually a Starfleet organization.

Gambit,

All "Gambit" establishes is that the V'Shar exists within the Federation. That's the equivalent of revealing that the Massachusetts State Police still exists in the United States; this is not evidence that the United States Navy doesn't have ports in Massachusetts, and it is not evidence that Starfleet doesn't have bases in the Vulcan system.

and STXI,

All ST09 establishes is that the Narada began attacking Vulcan and blocked all subspace communications out of the Vulcan system before the nature of the threat could be transmitted in the distress signal received on Earth. When the Enterprise came out of warp, it entered a debris field that included a huge saucer section that was much larger than the saucers seen in any of the other ships it had left Earth with. Logically, this was probably a Starfleet ship (or, given its size, a section of a Starfleet starbase) that was already in Vulcan orbit before the task force from Earth arrived.

So, if anything, I'd say ST09 implicitly contradicts the idea that Starfleet had no one at Vulcan.

And Sela stops just short of stating this outright, since the entire "using civilian ships to land invasion troops" plan depends on those troops being able to capture and hold ground and then fortify their positions before Starfleet forces could arrive to dig them out. That plan goes all to hell if a Starfleet presence is already there that can stamp out the invasion before they can go anywhere.

That plan goes to hell if Sela even expects to be able to control a single continent, let alone the entire planet. The entire plan is illogical on its face, whether or not Starfleet has its own forces nearby.

The same also occurs in STXI, where Nero has no trouble at all pulling into orbit of Vulcan and drilling holes in the planet, but apparently needs to get the access codes to the defense system to pull the same trick on Earth.

Not really. ST09 establishes very clearly that the Narada was able to blow every single Starfleet ship out of the water with relative ease, but that a Starfleet ship that gets the bright idea of a suicide run can disable the Narada. Most likely, the Narada was able to destroy any ships in Vulcan orbit that tried a suicide run before they hit, but decided to gain access codes to Starfleet's Earth defenses in order to prevent such suicide runs in the first place.

"Favor the Bold" does nothing of the kind. The only reference even similar to this is when Damar states "The fifth fleet has pulled back from fighting along the Vulcan Border." Again, this is 100 years after Spock and Sarek both state that Vulcans are now pacifists and don't operate warships anymore. No mention of Andor or Tellar is ever made.

You're right; it's "In the Cards" that establishes that Starfleet (even before the war) is responsible for protecting Vulcan and Andor and Berengaria.

Likewise, the Klingons were extremely reluctant to commit their ships to the battle, and they very nearly didn't, fearing that the action would leave the Empire vulnerable to attack. Starfleet had the same concerns regarding Earth... not Vulcan, not Andor, not Tellar, not Bolia, not Betazed, not Delta-IV, not Tandar, but EARTH.

So what? Earth is the capital planet of the Federation. That doesn't mean that Starfleet owes any more special loyalty to Earth because it's Earth; they'd react the same way if the Federation capital planet was Vulcan or Andor or Deneva or Delta or Bolarus.

Um, yes there is. When asked how Betazed could have fallen, Sisko explains that the 10th Fleet was caught during training exercises out of system.

"Assigned to protect Betazed" and "generally known to be patrolling the area" are not identical.

It's the middle of a war and Betazed is near the border. They're not going to be "generally known to be patrolling the area;" they're going to be assigned to protect Betazed, period.

That would be utterly superfluous information if the 10th Fleet was not permanently assigned to defend Betazed.

Unless it was known the 10th fleet was in the area and Starfleet thought that angle was well covered. Given the ease with which a Ferengi marauder can abduct people from their planet, it does not seem that Betazed is a major Starfleet post either.

That's not evidence that Betazed lacks major Starfleet posts, that's evidence that Starfleet's security system isn't perfect.

 

[Matt4511]

It's the middle of a war and Betazed is near the border. They're not going to be "generally known to be patrolling the area;" they're going to be assigned to protect Betazed, period.

If I recall correctly, the 10th Fleet's role is explicitly stated in dialogue:

Sisko: "There's plenty of blame to go around. The 10th Fleet was supposed to be protecting Betazed and its outlying colonies, but it got caught out of position on a training exercise."

 

[Sci]

It's the middle of a war and Betazed is near the border. They're not going to be "generally known to be patrolling the area;" they're going to be assigned to protect Betazed, period.

If I recall correctly, the 10th Fleet's role is explicitly stated in dialogue:

Sisko: "There's plenty of blame to go around. The 10th Fleet was supposed to be protecting Betazed and its outlying colonies, but it got caught out of position on a training exercise."

Well, that settles it, then!