Size and Strength of Empires

[Crazy Eddie]

Is that how you think Bolia joined the Federation?

No, I think Bolarus joined because the Bolian people and government decided that the benefits of joining outweighed the costs and that their rights would be well-protected as Federation Members.

Then the comparison to the United States is, as I have stated, invalid. They wouldn't have willingly joined the Federation under the same terms that Texas joined the United States.

1. If you really think that the cultures of the North and the South were, or are, the same?

To the extent that they share fundamental common traits that can meaningfully identify a "culture," yes. Of course, if "southerners/yankees" is your idea of a cultural divide, its no wonder you can't imagine the Federation having trouble integrating its members.

And I can illustrate this point very simply:

Well, all I can say is, get a Yankee and a Northerner in the same room and watch them go at it...

Would that be a white yankee and a black southerner? Or a black yankee and a white southerner? Or a white yankee and a hispanic southernor? Or a black southernor and a hispanic yankee?

Any permutation of the above will produce COMPLETELY different interactions, based on culture alone. These will invariably be overwhelmed by personality traits, and sometimes even by neighborhood traits. Yet for all intents and purposes, these cultural differences are mere triffles in the broader set of a unified culture; just because sox and cubs fans hate each other doesn't mean they're from different planets.

Real cultural barriers of the type that will inevitably exist between different planets would not even be THAT mild, or that simple. Hatred and mistrust is just one possible dynamic; jealousy, resentment, fear, disgust, even admiration/obsession are all possible reactions to one another. That they would find it difficult to work side by side is probably optimistic in the extreme; that despite this they would still be able to cooperate as friends and allies is Star Trek at its best.

2. Again, you're relying on the premise that cultural unity can only come through peoples organically living together or through imperialism.

No, just organically living together. And in this context, where these various people all come from completely different worlds, there are very few ways OTHER than an imperial regime where they could all obtain this level of cultural unity.

Lest you further grasp at straws to try and miss the point: that kind of unity cannot be formed both peacefully and by design. It can occur peacefully--over many hundreds of years of slow immigration and cultural exchange--or it can happen by force, with a few dominant cultures imposing conformity on all the others.

Star Trek is based on the premise that cultural identity can arise through a deliberate decision

Star Trek is based on nothing of the kind. Cooperation, sure. Peaceful coexistence, definately. But "choosing" to identify with a particular culture is not a fundamental premise of Star Trek; furthermore, it is an ABSURD premise with numerous counterexamples in reality.

This has never happened in real life (so far). This does not mean it cannot happen.

Nor does it mean it SHOULD happen. There are practical and political reasons why a culture of comformity may not be as desirable as one that tolerates diversity and "apartness" by some of its members.

I always took the scene at the end of TSFS as indicating that he'd gotten to Vulcan under cloak.

They weren't cloaked when they approached Vulcan, so that's a non issue.

newtype_alpha, I suggest that you might enjoy the Star Trek: Titan series of novels. The premise behind it is that Starfleet is a single organization of the sort that I and others have described it in this thread, and that it has in the past mixed the species of its ships' crews, but that it has also tended to segregate on the basis of body type. (Which is fairly realistic -- real organizations often set lofty goals but only partially meet them.)

And Starfleet has now decided that it needs to change that and make a stronger effort to integrate diverse species of officers into a single crew.

The U.S.S. Titan is thus a ship deliberately designed to accommodate numerous non-humanoid species in addition to humanoids, including Choblik, Horta, Pahkwa-thanh, S'ti'ach, Pak'shree, Selkies, Skorr, Betelgeusians, Elaysians, Chelon, Brikarians, Seleneans, Syrath, and Thymerae.

The fundamental premise of the series is how diverse the crew -- and therefore the Federation -- truly is.

I would have to disagree with this interpretation of "diversity." Diversity is most valuable to a society when different members are allowed to contribute in their own unique way; dictating to them the form and extent their contribution. It would make more sense to me that individual members are allowed to completely retain their individual and even national individuality while still working as part of an overall community that respects and cherishes the diversity, not just of individuals, but of the cultures they come from too.

Plus I'm a starship junkie and I've always wanted to know what a Horta-designed starship would look like.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I think the Klingons may have been more tougher and powerful then the star charts say.

At the series seem to point to that.

In three different examples, the Klingons had either conquered, or nearly conquered all 3 major powers.

First, of course, was the war in yesterday's enterprise, like it was said, over 20, years, the Klingons managed to fight the Federation down to the point where Picard said defeat was inevitable.

Next, in the last episode of T.N.G, in yet another alternate reality, the Klingons had overpowered and conquered the Romulan empire.

And in DS9, the Klingons almost conquered the Cardassian empire, had they not turned around and pursued the Defiant, where Golwron eventually called off the invasion.

In a strange way, the stories suggest the Klingons were powerful enough to conquer each of these powers in an all out war.