Siskos prejudice?

[Laughing Dragon]

Somebody certainly is.

You thumbed up my OP dude. I mentioned this already. And then you turned on me for lack of a better explanation. Probably because you saw these vapid losers' comments. Sorry... you trying to teach me a lesson in manners will never work. More like I was just not being passive aggressive and using mean words instead.

I was perfectly good the first page and to kudo and then to join in says a lot about you and a reason to be suspicious later. I talked fine to the ones that weren't acting this way. Even the ones that did not agree. I can tell the difference. Holy heck my 'Who is Bashir's best friend' thread snow balled for pages because of homophobia. Then it became super off topic. I tried to stay polite as long as I could. I post at various other forums and it's not like this, lol. And of course, I will not see you as the soul representation of these forums. I should not have to specify. I think when race and sexuality come into play others become a little... pissy (even if it's the polite way). Wonder if a mod will come inhere and start swearing at me.

i won't deny that Sisko has some prejudices against ferengi, but in this scene specifically i think he's playing it up a bit to make sure Nog is being serious and not acting on a whim or flight of fancy. he wouldn't ease up at the end otherwise.

Well, that was the explanation by a couple of posters. But I think he was being stuck up in a way. YMMV.

 

[Michael]

Or what if he said you are a Jew or black?

Let's replace Ferengi with black.

Jews were seen as suspicious.

You keep making that comparison, but I think it’s a dubious one, since the Ferengi aren’t obviously discriminated against and have never been the victims of injustices like slavery or genocide. Sisko wondering if Ferengi culture and customs are not at odds with wanting to be in Starfleet is not the same as being racist or antisemitic. Racism isn't just individual prejudice or discrimination based on race, a key aspect is how those beliefs and actions are backed by systemic power. Sisko, humans, Starfleet or the Federation are not holding structural power over the Ferengi. This is the same kind of flawed logic that leads people to believe there’s any significant “anti-white racism” happening in the world.

I don't think you even need head canon for that. IMO, that's clearly what is going on and intended to be read that way.

Edit: The script explicitly states it:

NOG
(finally blurts out the truth)
Because I don't want to end up like my father.

Sisko calms down. He was only acting angry to push Nog to reveal his reasons for wanting to join Starfleet.

i won't deny that Sisko has some prejudices against ferengi, but in this scene specifically i think he's playing it up a bit to make sure Nog is being serious and not acting on a whim or flight of fancy. he wouldn't ease up at the end otherwise.

Exactly. Sisko is clearly trying to provoke Nog into admitting his true intentions about wanting to join Starfleet. I’m dumbfounded by how many people seem to watch that scene and take it at face value that Sisko would be so narrow-minded as to be openly bigoted towards Nog. If he’s prejudiced in this scene, it’s not about Ferengi as a species or culture, but Nog as an individual. He’s known Nog for years at this point, knows what culture he’s grown up in, what his upbringing looked like and the missteps he’s taken. That’s why he’s questioning Nog’s motives; not because he somehow racist against Ferengi.

Children ARE born bad. Parents have to teach them to do good. Your premise is entirely off, man's nature is evil that nature has to be quelled by someone more powerful

What a load of nonsense.

 

[Laughing Dragon]

You keep making that comparison, but I think it’s a dubious one, since the Ferengi aren’t obviously discriminated against and have never been the victims of injustices like slavery or genocide. Sisko wondering if Ferengi culture and customs are not at odds with wanting to be in Starfleet is not the same as being racist or antisemitic. Racism isn't just individual prejudice or discrimination based on race, a key aspect is how those beliefs and actions are backed by systemic power. Sisko, humans, Starfleet or the Federation are not holding structural power over the Ferengi. This is the same kind of flawed logic that leads people to believe there’s any significant “anti-white racism” happening in the world.



Exactly. Sisko is clearly trying to provoke Nog into admitting his true intentions about wanting to join Starfleet. I’m dumbfounded by how many people seem to watch that scene and take it at face value that Sisko would be so narrow-minded as to be openly bigoted towards Nog. If he’s prejudiced in this scene, it’s not about Ferengi as a species or culture, but Nog as an individual. He’s known Nog for years at this point, knows what culture he’s grown up in, what his upbringing looked like and the missteps he’s taken. That’s why he’s questioning Nog’s motives; not because he somehow racist against Ferengi.


What a load of nonsense.

I don't trust you in the slightest.

Cardassians are racist to Bejoran's (right???). Eek. What if he said Bejoran.

Oh, and let's agree to disagree and move on.

 

[Laughing Dragon]

You keep making that comparison, but I think it’s a dubious one, since the Ferengi aren’t obviously discriminated against and have never been the victims of injustices like slavery or genocide. Sisko wondering if Ferengi culture and customs are not at odds with wanting to be in Starfleet is not the same as being racist or antisemitic. Racism isn't just individual prejudice or discrimination based on race, a key aspect is how those beliefs and actions are backed by systemic power. Sisko, humans, Starfleet or the Federation are not holding structural power over the Ferengi. This is the same kind of flawed logic that leads people to believe there’s any significant “anti-white racism” happening in the world.



Exactly. Sisko is clearly trying to provoke Nog into admitting his true intentions about wanting to join Starfleet. I’m dumbfounded by how many people seem to watch that scene and take it at face value that Sisko would be so narrow-minded as to be openly bigoted towards Nog. If he’s prejudiced in this scene, it’s not about Ferengi as a species or culture, but Nog as an individual. He’s known Nog for years at this point, knows what culture he’s grown up in, what his upbringing looked like and the missteps he’s taken. That’s why he’s questioning Nog’s motives; not because he somehow racist against Ferengi.


What a load of nonsense.

• I don't trust you in the slightest. Well, at least you singled out Photon too. And not too nicely. Though, I said something similar on the first page. But not just in on broad statement.

Cardassians are racist to Bejoran's (right???). Eek. What if he said Bejoran. Also, heaven forfend anyone should challenge the main hero. People challenge the TNG crew all the time.

At least you singled out Photon too. I pretty much challenged it on the first page but not in one dismissive sentence. And many people voted him up.

• Lets agree to disagree and move on, ok?
• 
  
• ETA: what is the hell with these dots and why can't I detete them?

 

[kkt]

I thought we were all agreeing to disagree and moving on?

 

[korblborp]

Holy heck my 'Who is Bashir's best friend' thread snow balled for pages because of homophobia. Then it became super off topic

while it did go mildly off topic, it's not homophobic to have a different interpretation than the actor, or *you*, or to point out that what he said wasn't represented in the show as produced.

I think when race and sexuality come into play others become a little... pissy

perhaps, but there and

Probably because you saw these vapid losers' comments.

here, you seem to have been the pissiest, because people didn't agree with you. or necessarily each other, either, but were pretty polite about it when they didn't.

You keep making that comparison, but I think it’s a dubious one, since the Ferengi aren’t obviously discriminated against and have never been the victims of injustices like slavery or genocide

to be fair to laughing dragon, he is far from the first person to draw comparisons between the depiction of the Ferengi and anti-semitic streotypes and (possibly) being uncomfortable with it, even if unintentional and they grew past those with time and mostly good storytelling.

Racism isn't just individual prejudice or discrimination based on race

it literally is. it can be/become institutional or systemic, but it is not required. it's almost required to be personal first or else there would be no one to build it into the institutions. l. i am wary of people denying the personal aspect -or pretending certain groups can't be victims of it- because in my experience it's often after they have been *virulently* so and called out... (i do not mean this as an accusation, just... idk.)

Sisko, in particular, here has both personal reasons and structural power over Nog directly, as the person he has come to for help joining Starfleet; and the other ferengi on the station as administrator and potential connection to the rest of starfleet and the federation
and whether he is wary of Nog's reasons because of general feelings of prejudice against the ferengi or past experience with nog's schemes directly, or whatever, he doesn't let it prevent him from doing what was right. which is the key.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I thought we were all agreeing to disagree and moving on?

This, or someone will bring this discussion to a quick and sudden end.

On that note, IBTL.

 

[publiusr]

No one is perfect…even in the future

 

[Tosk]

Maybe OP was actually doing as Sisko did, pretending to be belligerent so as to find out all of our true motivations.

 

[korblborp]

No one is perfect…even in the future

*slaps side of monitor* even in the future nothing works!

 

[Bad Thoughts]

*slaps side of monitor* even in the future nothing works!

Ah, I just recently explained how we once had "legitimate" arguments about the right way to hit the side of the TV when the reception was bad.

 

[korblborp]

Ah, I just recently explained how we once had "legitimate" arguments about the right way to hit the side of the TV when the reception was bad.

they barely even have sides anymore. in another decade or two, it'll be like slapping a sword edge. SHING!
and i am not sure if it ever really worked or just jarred the bunny ears into a worse position.

 

[fireproof78]

Ah, I just recently explained how we once had "legitimate" arguments about the right way to hit the side of the TV when the reception was bad.

Sadly, I just read an article that all my blowing in to NES cartridges caused moisture damage

 

[Bad Thoughts]

and i am not sure if it ever really worked or just jarred the bunny ears into a worse position.

THAT'S BECAUSE YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!

(sorry, old habits.)

 

[Oddish]

Was Sisko prejudiced against Nog because he was a Ferengi? Or because he saw his name on a lot of Odo's security reports, often in conjunction with Jake?

As recently as "Sanctuary", Nog had been getting himself in serious trouble (it's my head canon that after contributing to that kid's death, Nog decided to seriously re-think his life). So maybe Sisko would have been dubious about anyone who had that record.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Something more to consider: Sisko is literally searching for new information about Nog that might give him reason to change his mind. He is not pre-judging. He is actively forming new judgements.

 

[Farscape One]

That entire scene of Sisko getting to the reason why Nog wants to join Starfleet waa exactly that: getting to the why.

As stated by Sisko himself, not only was there no indication previously of Nog's interest (even Jake, his best friend, had no idea and thought it was a joke), but his grades in school showed he made no real effort, he had multiple run-ins with the law, and his reputation among the station was not good.

Was Sisko prejudiced against Nog? In the beginning of the show, yes. But I think a big part of it was because he saw his son being dragged in by Nog, who was constantly getting in trouble and didn't want Jake to be influenced by a troublemaker. Though Sisko does say early in the show humans and Ferengi have little common ground and just aren't compatible for real friendship. However, in "LIFE SUPPORT", which was right before "HEART OF STONE", Sisko tells Jake that he was wrong and that, "You and Nog proved that. Sure, there's cultural differences but there's a real bond between you."

Though the first time Sisko softens on Nog is the end of "THE NAGUS", when what they were doing in secret was Jake teaching Nog how to read. Sisko was never harsh or angry with Nog again after that... until that scene in "HEART OF STONE", which was entirely a fake anger to get to the reason.

So clearly if Sisko had any prejudices, it was already well in the past. And the evidence is peppered throught the episodes previous to "HEART OF STONE", as well as that one itself.

 

[at Quark's]

Something more to consider: Sisko is literally searching for new information about Nog that might give him reason to change his mind. He is not pre-judging. He is actively forming new judgements.

I don't think those two necessarily exclude one another though.

(I mean, in general, I don't say Sisko is doing so).

 

[fireproof78]

clearly if Sisko had any prejudices, it was already well in the past. And the evidence is peppered throught the episodes previous to "HEART OF STONE", as well as that one itself.

Exactly so. He had to grow past a lot of his flaws. In this way, Sisko is like Kirk. A flawed man but not blind that he has them or that he doesn't have room to grow.

I would call Sisko predjudiced initially, worked past it but used it to his advantage to test Nog.

 

[Farscape One]

Precisely why Sisko is so relatable as a person and leader.

He has his flaws and works to overcome them and he grows. He started with the pilot. In "EMISSARY", he grew more in a single episode than most captains had in years.