Sisko's dislike of the Vic Fontaine holosuite program

[Vanyel]

While watching the Badda-Bing Badda Bang line by line, I got to thinking about Sisko's reaction to the whole program.

In the 24th Century, racism, between humans anyway, is no longer an issue. Proof of such of course is Gene Roddenberry's vision of the future, but also in the program itself. It's creator didn't instal any type of racism into the characters.

The issue of racism from the point of view of people in the 24th Century, is something they only read about in Earth history. It's a non issue to them, it's 300+ years in the past. Racism doesn't exist.

To Sisko however, it's still an issue. Something he's held onto, even though he worked his way up the chain of command to the rank of captain, the Commanding Officer of the most important space station at the time and Commanding Officer of one of the most powerful class of ship in Starfleet. He knows racism doesn't exist among humans towards other humans. Yet he still sees it, feels it and is angered by it.

I don't see why. In today, the early 21st Century, I can see it being an issue, because racism is still an issue among humans.

So, what was the reasoning behind Sisko's dislike of the program. Yes, he was factually accurate about the time period it's set in. Yes, he's right about racism, and that blacks were denied equal rights by a system that didn't see blacks as people.

I just can't figure it out. To me, looking at it from the point of view of a 24th Century human, his reaction makes no sense.

 

[Gotham Central]

While watching the Badda-Bing Badda Bang line by line, I got to thinking about Sisko's reaction to the whole program.

In the 24th Century, racism, between humans anyway, is no longer an issue. Proof of such of course is Gene Roddenberry's vision of the future, but also in the program itself. It's creator didn't instal any type of racism into the characters.

The issue of racism from the point of view of people in the 24th Century, is something they only read about in Earth history. It's a non issue to them, it's 300+ years in the past. Racism doesn't exist.

To Sisko however, it's still an issue. Something he's held onto, even though he worked his way up the chain of command to the rank of captain, the Commanding Officer of the most important space station at the time and Commanding Officer of one of the most powerful class of ship in Starfleet. He knows racism doesn't exist among humans towards other humans. Yet he still sees it, feels it and is angered by it.

I don't see why. In today, the early 21st Century, I can see it being an issue, because racism is still an issue among humans.

So, what was the reasoning behind Sisko's dislike of the program. Yes, he was factually accurate about the time period it's set in. Yes, he's right about racism, and that blacks were denied equal rights by a system that didn't see blacks as people.

I just can't figure it out. To me, looking at it from the point of view of a 24th Century human, his reaction makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense. Sisko saw the program as inaccurate and felt that it diminished the struggles of people of that era. He's right. If you read TheGodBen's review of Voyager, you see that he had the same reaction to the depiction of Fair Haven. He's Irish, and long removed from that period, but took issue with the depiction (and rightly so).

Some people take history much more seriously than others. Sisko is one of those people. In fact that is a consistent character trait for him. He collects authentic african art. He built an authentic recreation of a Bajoran light sail ship etc.

 

[sonak]

While watching the Badda-Bing Badda Bang line by line, I got to thinking about Sisko's reaction to the whole program.

In the 24th Century, racism, between humans anyway, is no longer an issue. Proof of such of course is Gene Roddenberry's vision of the future, but also in the program itself. It's creator didn't instal any type of racism into the characters.

The issue of racism from the point of view of people in the 24th Century, is something they only read about in Earth history. It's a non issue to them, it's 300+ years in the past. Racism doesn't exist.

To Sisko however, it's still an issue. Something he's held onto, even though he worked his way up the chain of command to the rank of captain, the Commanding Officer of the most important space station at the time and Commanding Officer of one of the most powerful class of ship in Starfleet. He knows racism doesn't exist among humans towards other humans. Yet he still sees it, feels it and is angered by it.

I don't see why. In today, the early 21st Century, I can see it being an issue, because racism is still an issue among humans.

So, what was the reasoning behind Sisko's dislike of the program. Yes, he was factually accurate about the time period it's set in. Yes, he's right about racism, and that blacks were denied equal rights by a system that didn't see blacks as people.

I just can't figure it out. To me, looking at it from the point of view of a 24th Century human, his reaction makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense. Sisko saw the program as inaccurate and felt that it diminished the struggles of people of that era. He's right. If you read TheGodBen's review of Voyager, you see that he had the same reaction to the depiction of Fair Haven. He's Irish, and long removed from that period, but took issue with the depiction (and rightly so).

Some people take history much more seriously than others. Sisko is one of those people. In fact that is a consistent character trait for him. He collects authentic african art. He built an authentic recreation of a Bajoran light sail ship etc.

Agreed. I don't get the criticism of his attitude either. Sisko is basically right on the issue. And from this point in time, a lot of the injustices of slavery are hundreds of years in the past as well, yet people still remember them and are affected by them.

 

[Vanyel]

While watching the Badda-Bing Badda Bang line by line, I got to thinking about Sisko's reaction to the whole program.

In the 24th Century, racism, between humans anyway, is no longer an issue. Proof of such of course is Gene Roddenberry's vision of the future, but also in the program itself. It's creator didn't instal any type of racism into the characters.

The issue of racism from the point of view of people in the 24th Century, is something they only read about in Earth history. It's a non issue to them, it's 300+ years in the past. Racism doesn't exist.

To Sisko however, it's still an issue. Something he's held onto, even though he worked his way up the chain of command to the rank of captain, the Commanding Officer of the most important space station at the time and Commanding Officer of one of the most powerful class of ship in Starfleet. He knows racism doesn't exist among humans towards other humans. Yet he still sees it, feels it and is angered by it.

I don't see why. In today, the early 21st Century, I can see it being an issue, because racism is still an issue among humans.

So, what was the reasoning behind Sisko's dislike of the program. Yes, he was factually accurate about the time period it's set in. Yes, he's right about racism, and that blacks were denied equal rights by a system that didn't see blacks as people.

I just can't figure it out. To me, looking at it from the point of view of a 24th Century human, his reaction makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense. Sisko saw the program as inaccurate and felt that it diminished the struggles of people of that era. He's right. If you read TheGodBen's review of Voyager, you see that he had the same reaction to the depiction of Fair Haven. He's Irish, and long removed from that period, but took issue with the depiction (and rightly so).

Some people take history much more seriously than others. Sisko is one of those people. In fact that is a consistent character trait for him. He collects authentic african art. He built an authentic recreation of a Bajoran light sail ship etc.

Agreed. I don't get the criticism of his attitude either. Sisko is basically right on the issue. And from this point in time, a lot of the injustices of slavery are hundreds of years in the past as well, yet people still remember them and are affected by them.

That would be because racism still exists. In the 24th Century it doesn't. Going into a fantasy world, which all holodeck programs are, does not change the past. Like all fantasy, it provides an escape. That's why I don't understand his reaction.

 

[DonIago]

I -kind of- understand where he's coming from, but I also think he could have shown a bit more understanding for the fact that these were his friends and this was just escapism, not an attempt to whitewash the past.

I wonder whether he'd refuse to watch movies with violence because it wasn't portrayed accurately?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

The other serious problem with his attitude towards Vic is that Vic was a sentient non-human being that he was willing to let die because of a human problem for which Vic was not responsible. If Sisko wanted to fire off an angry e-mail to Felix, fine. But taking it out on Vic, who was sentient (certainly as much so as Voyager's Doctor, the longer his program ran, which we KNOW to be a side effect of 24th century photonic technology), was something I have a serious problem with. This was a sentient alien he was willing to allow to die.

 

[Sindatur]

The other serious problem with his attitude towards Vic is that Vic was a sentient non-human being that he was willing to let die because of a human problem for which Vic was not responsible. If Sisko wanted to fire off an angry e-mail to Felix, fine. But taking it out on Vic, who was sentient (certainly as much so as Voyager's Doctor, the longer his program ran, which we KNOW to be a side effect of 24th century photonic technology), was something I have a serious problem with. This was a sentient alien he was willing to allow to die.

^This

I always took away from the episode that Sisko had not engaged in the Program, and didn't understand Vic's Sentience, he wrote Vic off as a program, not as a Friend and Mentor, as everyone was reasoning with him to believe. I never felt that Sisko's position was based upon anger for injustices of the past, in fact, I think his bitching about Injustices of the Past and the arguments he encountered, was what led him to accept that he needed to view Vic as a person, not as less than a person, as his ancestors were treated by Whites in that period (Which Vic didn't portray, so no "slap in the face")

 

[jvsett]

I've always been slightly put off by Sisko in this episode. The thought that scars of racism would continue into the galaxy seemed counterintuitive. This was especially true with Kasidy’s response as I assumed she grew up on Cetlus III and not Earth.

With Sisko, I can see his reaction being in character especially after his experiences with 20th / 21st Century racism through as Gabriel Bell in the District Riots and Benny Russell in Far Beyond the Stars and Shadows and Symbols

jvsett

 

[Sjaddix]

Good D*** , I hate the idea as compute programs as equivalent to people total BS. Animals have some degree of sentience as well and I am not going to treat them like a Humans.

 

[Timo]

Well, in hard legal terms, farm animals in the European Union are officially sentient. By the same legal terms, they remain quite edible...

Now sapience might alter the latter aspect somewhat. But starship computers are pretty sapient, and yet our heroic skippers have no qualms about ordering the ships to self-destruct. (Then again, they are military commanders, and rightly have few qualms about ordering their biologically based men and women to suicidal missions.)

The episode does paint Sisko as the one remaining racist in the Federation, in quite a few ways... But, as said, he can be excused as he's crazy.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Frontier]

I think Sisko's issue was that the program white-washed (no bad pun intended) the truth. And that those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. It's a valid point I think. Was it likely a bit of reality of the actor becoming part of the story or character? Perhaps. But a good bit of such, if you ask me. Other old-time holodeck programs never address such, whether Geordi being Watson, or Data's albino appearance in Dixon Hill. Voyager sort of came close in that the under-the-hirogen-influence Tom Paris was wary of his Asian best-bud Harry while he thought he was a WW2 soldier.

It was a good opportunity to address an oversight, imho. It's not as if they harped on it or made it heavy-handed.

 

[Sci]

To Sisko however, it's still an issue. Something he's held onto, even though he worked his way up the chain of command to the rank of captain, the Commanding Officer of the most important space station at the time and Commanding Officer of one of the most powerful class of ship in Starfleet. He knows racism doesn't exist among humans towards other humans. Yet he still sees it, feels it and is angered by it.

It's not that it's "still" an issue for Sisko. There's no indication whatsoever that he's ever felt as though he faced racism or oppression in his life.

It's just that he doesn't think it should be glossed over or ignored or forgotten when people think about their history. That's a completely legitimate viewpoint, and it's not hard to understand.

 

[Vanyel]

Good D*** , I hate the idea as compute programs as equivalent to people total BS. Animals have some degree of sentience as well and I am not going to treat them like a Humans.

My pets are like children to me. Recently we were having thunderstorms. Through out the storms, she was by my side where ever I was; and when I went to bed, instead of sleeping in her bed she jumped on my bed and slept right next to me the whole night. I do treat her like a human, because she is mine to love and she loves me.

Data is, essentially, nothing more than a walking pile of computer programs. He even has an off switch and can be rebooted and has a system restore. He can even be backed up. Yet Picard fought to have him declared sentient - well technically he was ruled as not the property of Starfleet, his sentience was not resolved in the ruling. Most viewers and in universe characters consider Data a sentient life form, one of only a handful.

 

[Kennedypjp]

That's what i think too .

 

[Timo]

...What is rather more difficult to understand is how Sisko knows the first thing about 1960s nightclubs.

All our 23rd and 24th century Earth heroes have had only a very vague idea of the more distant history of their planet or their region of origin there - with a narrow field of specialty where they can impress their compatriots. Sisko seemed rather lost in the 2015 San Francisco, grew up in a New Orleans environment that basked in its 19th century glory, and his aesthetic tastes seemed to favor "Africana" on those rare occasions we saw his civilian side. What is the reason his token expertise was in the last days of official segregation in the US? Pure coincidence?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Takeru]

I think Sisko's issue was that the program white-washed (no bad pun intended) the truth. And that those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. It's a valid point I think.

No, in this context it's not a valid point. It's a holosuite program that's written to allow everyone to enjoy a mid 20th century Las Vegas bar, Sisko's rant was ridiculous because it ignored the fact that programs like this have to be unrealistic, it has nothing to do with white-washing. Would he prefer if the computer told him that due to his skin color he is not allowed to have fun but may enter the holosuite if he agrees to scrub Vic's toilets? What about non-humans? Are the holo characters supposed to run away screaming as soon as Nog enters? Does he expect the military to show up at Vic's to apprehend him at which point the computer kicks him out?
If this were an educational program about earth history he would have a point, but it's not. While it looks like a 20th century environment it's a place that was created to be enjoyed by 24th century humans and aliens, of course it's not realistic, how could it be?

Was it likely a bit of reality of the actor becoming part of the story or character? Perhaps.

Perhaps? Try definitely, that wasn't Sisko, that was Avery Brooks climbing on a soap box and ranting about racism in the 1960's. It was annoying!

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Anyone factor in his vison experience as Benny Russle? I think that left a huge impression on him, it was essentially first hand experience and the holoprogram might be removed by a decade from that period but from Sisko's perspective more than 400 years later it could have happened on the exact same day.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I think it's amazing that people should think Sisko should embrace a period of Earth's history where he would have been discriminated and persecuted just for the color of his skin.

 

[Timo]

But that covers about 100% of the "periods of Earth's history". That would leave Sisko nothing to be proud of when it comes to his roots. He couldn't claim to be proud to be black, American (African?), or even human if he were that picky.

Plus, he has bigger things to hate. Back then, people of his color and others were proudly slaughtering people of different color; of same color; and of all ages and genders. Masturbatory wars are supposedly a thing of the past in the 24th century, and indeed the very idea of human fighting human seems to disgust Sisko to no end in the Maquis deal. Complaining about blacks being discriminated against when so much horror is taking place should not even occur to Sisko, or at least he should feel properly ashamed of having such sentiments.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

But that covers about 100% of the "periods of Earth's history".

What about for African-Americans in that particular period in United States history where Sisko wouldn't have been allowed in a place like Vic's?