Simon Pegg on The Future of Star Trek

[Gracewood]

If the rumour turns out to be true, I doubt it will get a theatrical release. it may be a film put on cbs all access. I am not such Quinto himself can carry a spin off movie.

Star Trek though a massive pop culture phenomenon with aliens races (Klingons, Vulcans) even more embody in society than star wars alien races has never been a big massive box office draw. A spin off star trek movie is highly unlikely to make a lot of money.

Zoe Saldana looks to be a bigger box office draw than Quinto, so I think they may want to bring her in? make it into some good space couple romance to draw in more audience? We will wait and see.

The plot sounds terrible though. Spock going back to save his mother.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Ah I thought it was a sequence from STID..or was it a deleted scene meant for the end of ST09?

Unfortunately the past is easy to get mixed up like that

They considered having the Botany Bay in an after credits scene in ST'09 and talk about it in the commentary, but they decided it would lock them down too much for the sequel (which ended up Khan anyway, but at some point a turncoat Robert April was considered)

And yeah, it all tends to blend together.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Your analysis feels more like you are looking at the film as a 12 to sometimes 22 episode TV season where you can tell more stories but you are right to some extent that Beyond could have done more with the characters. it is a movie that was more plot driven than character driven, so we don't see much of the spock/uhura relationship, Kirk wanting to leave star fleet for personal reasons or the Bones/Spock dynamic. all this played secondary to trying to stop Krall.

I agree with the whole thing, and that it puts the films in a difficult spot with having to show almost a decade of material in some 2 hour movies.

But the films rushed things so much, some of the things in the aftermath seemed unlikely or silly. In the 09 film, they promoted Kirk from cadet to captain and the other cadets to senior officers and inserted them directly to senior positions on the Enterprise.

So in the 2nd movie, only a year later, Chekov was made the chief engineer (in Scotty's absence) Sulu was in command (3rd officer) when Kirk and Spock left the ship, and we can assume Uhura was the chief communications officer.

Which makes you question weren't there any older senior officers already there or did they literally restaff the entire ship with cadets. But they needed all the characters in the roles instantly, so they went with it.

But I think the most damage was how so much was skipped over. When you start watching, you get the idea that since they started off so inexperienced and young, we'll gradually get to see them grow into their roles, develop experience, chemistry and bonding.

But by Beyond, it was basically saying all of that has already happened. They're already in their roles. They're already experienced. they've already developed their dynamic/chemistry.

Were' already supposed to have bonded with the Enterprise, so we'll have strong reaction when it was destroyed, as if we've seen all the decks rooms and things. Instead there's no reaction, because we never really had the time to get used to it.

The series, IMO, was a little too rushed and hyper.

 

[drt]

I think a better epilog for ST09 would have been an "eight years later" sort of thing with a line from Kirk about being happy to get everyone back for his five year mission as Captain. Then the second movie could have focused on how they were bonding as a team and adapting their roles.

 

[Qonundrum]

If they tell a smaller scale story with a lower budget, then they won't have to.

Like how TWOK had... and they didn't even have to visit Earth for the big epic boom boom finale.

 

[fireproof78]

But the films rushed things so much, some of the things in the aftermath seemed unlikely or silly. In the 09 film, they promoted Kirk from cadet to captain and the other cadets to senior officers and inserted them directly to senior positions on the Enterprise.

The Kirk to captain is one that I have the toughest time with, though easily fixed with a montage. But, he is also a lieutenant, though it is a visual not by dialog so easily missed.

The only other cadets we know of for sure are McCoy and Uhura, both of whom are lieutenants in Starfleet, and not addressed as cadet. Sulu is a lieutenant, and Chekov is an ensign. Them moving up in to more senior positions is not entirely unreasonable, especially considering that 5 other ships were lost with all hands at Vulcan, plus whatever damage is done when Nero attacks Earth.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I think a better epilog for ST09 would have been an "eight years later" sort of thing with a line from Kirk about being happy to get everyone back for his five year mission as Captain. Then the second movie could have focused on how they were bonding as a team and adapting their roles.

That would had done something to make the characters more believable in their roles, besides making it look like they instantly skipped over some major events in their lives.

The Kirk to captain is one that I have the toughest time with, though easily fixed with a montage. But, he is also a lieutenant, though it is a visual not by dialog so easily missed.

The only other cadets we know of for sure are McCoy and Uhura, both of whom are lieutenants in Starfleet, and not addressed as cadet. Sulu is a lieutenant, and Chekov is an ensign. Them moving up in to more senior positions is not entirely unreasonable, especially considering that 5 other ships were lost with all hands at Vulcan, plus whatever damage is done when Nero attacks Earth.

The big problem I think is, Kirk was shown as a cadet being put on suspension, so the big jump from cadet to captain at the end was big credibility hit. It was really enough to destroy the whole franchise, but it was a starting point.

Wikipedia at least says Chekov was a 17 year old cadet, although a gifted one. The credibility problem comes up again in the 2nd movie, when he is put in charge of engineering after Scotty resigns. Kirk goes directly Chekov and asks him to take charge of engineering. As if there were no other more experienced engineering officers to take control. He wasn't even part of that division.

With Sulu, in ITD, he was placed in command after Kirk and Spock left the ship. In the 09 movie, Sulu appeared to be a nervous navigator just starting out. You can imagine the scenario, but the problem is, without seeing the experience accumulated, the scenarios come off as odd and skipping over important events.

So it ends up looking like the Enterprise has no officers older than academy cadets.

 

[fireproof78]

The big problem I think is, Kirk was shown as a cadet being put on suspension, so the big jump from cadet to captain at the end was big credibility hit. It was really enough to destroy the whole franchise, but it was a starting point.

I think it was a hit, but not entirely a ruining one. Kirk is shown to have the rank of lieutenant, and Pike puts him in the chain of command through field promotion to first officer. He is eligible to move up that chain if the situation demands it.

Wikipedia at least says Chekov was a 17 year old cadet, although a gifted one. The credibility problem comes up again in the 2nd movie, when he is put in charge of engineering after Scotty resigns. Kirk goes directly Chekov and asks him to take charge of engineering. As if there were no other more experienced engineering officers to take control. He wasn't even part of that division.

This completely misses the point of Chekov going to engineering. Kirk doesn't want an engineer-he wants a yes man. He is operating outside the rules and Kirk knows it, so he needs someone who will work with him.

By complaining that Chekov isn't an engineer misses the whole point of the scene, and Kirk's arc within the story.

With Sulu, in ITD, he was placed in command after Kirk and Spock left the ship. In the 09 movie, Sulu appeared to be a nervous navigator just starting out. You can imagine the scenario, but the problem is, without seeing the experience accumulated, the scenarios come off as odd and skipping over important events.

Again, this is interpretation. Sulu appeared unfamiliar with the controls of their "newest flagship." This, of course, flustered him. Once Spock reminded him of a particular component (the external intertial dampners") Sulu handles the ship with plenty of experience and capability.

At no point is there any reason to doubt his capability. At least, from my reading of the film.

 

[STEPhon IT]

I can imagine a Spock and Uhura adventure without the rest of the crew. And I can imagine it being about Spock trying to save his mother since he's lost so much and ST'09 was the most universally liked of the Kelvin movies.

I doubt it'd happen (or even that the rumour is true), but if it does I'll watch.

I liked Spock and Uhura's relationship, I liked the chemistry and I hoped to get more of that in Beyond; I wanted more than a Fast and Furious vibe for the movie as well. Something which would appropriately fit the title Beyond, than seeing another Enterprise being destroyed. Pine's Kirk is okay but I was invested in Spock and valued his own personal revelations in the first 2 movies. The good scene I enjoyed with Pine was after Spock snitched him out; he didn't take it personally and tried to help Spock understand why he valued his life. Spock gets it when -unfortunately- during Kirk's final breath.

 

[Malaika]

I love the "have you disengaged the external inertial dampeners?" bit said by Spock: with that innocent, matter of fact annoying tone of his it almost sounds like an insult lol
In the first movie, he really reminds me of Nimoy's bitchy, intimidating attitude all contrasted by a gentle, softer nature that you see in his scenes with Uhura and when his mother dies.
And I wish Spock could interact with Sulu a bit more.
They have a moving scene in stid when Spock orders them to abandon the ship during the crisis, and Sulu tells him they won't just leave him to die alone on that ship.
In beyond, when Spock and Mccoy get to the base to free the crew it's Sulu who promptly tells him that they had taken Uhura and you could tell he was worried.

Anyway, Sulu's delaying their departure in st09 kind of contributed saving their ship though? Crazy to think about that but there surely were some lucky coincidences at play there for the Enterprise. Uhura and Kirk too: the fact she had intercepted that transmission and that Kirk had casually heard her talk about it and could do 1+1=2 with what he knew.

 

[Nyotarules]

The future of Trek - reboot the 24th century, TOS is over for now unless they recast the actors since I doubt they can afford Saldana and Pine's fees.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I think it was a hit, but not entirely a ruining one.

My mistake on that, I meant to say "it 'wasn't really enough to destroy the whole franchise". I don't think it was really enough to sink the whole thing by itself. It did have some good box office numbers.

It was other things too, that I think hurt it. It either went too fast or skipped over too much material.

Kirk is disillusioned and wants to apply for admiral after just 3 years into their mission. But after just 3 years this gives the feeling that this is happening way too quick into the series.

Spock and Uhura break up, but we never got to see enough of their relationship. Maybe after a 7 movie run you could feel the affect of their breakup, but not this soon.

The Enterprise is destroyed in the 3rd movie, but without seeing enough of it and the crew getting attached to it, there was no impact.

We missed out on all the things that made classic--like the McCoy and Spock thing, Kirk and his past loves, the characters growing into their ranks, etc.

It was like the series was telling us a lot of time, experience and bonding occurred instead of actually showing us. It just leaves you with the question, what's the rush on everything?

Anyway, Sulu's delaying their departure in st09 kind of contributed saving their ship though?

True, and I get that since they did save earth and the Federation, a promotion out of the academy isn't too crazy. But once I saw ITD and how the positions were filled on the Enterprise, the credibility alarm started going off a little.

The future of Trek - reboot the 24th century, TOS is over for now unless they recast the actors since I doubt they can afford Saldana and Pine's fees.

I wonder why the next movie simply can't be made on a smaller budget. Get the mental gears turning and come up with a real creative story that doesn't involve millions in special effects and action.

As far as the TOS Nu Trek era being over, if the franchise was healthy, fans and even casual viewers should still be talking about what's going on in Nu Trek right now. Like Uhura and Spock, Kirk and his love life. The technology, the ships, the Klingons and whatever else.

But there's just not enough material for anyone to talk about. If they want to keep the franchise going, they have to get fans interested and talking about it again.

 

[Khan 2.0]

My mistake on that, I meant to say "it 'wasn't really enough to destroy the whole franchise". I don't think it was really enough to sink the whole thing by itself. It did have some good box office numbers.

It was other things too, that I think hurt it. It either went too fast or skipped over too much material.

Kirk is disillusioned and wants to apply for admiral after just 3 years into their mission. But after just 3 years this gives the feeling that this is happening way too quick into the series.

Spock and Uhura break up, but we never got to see enough of their relationship. Maybe after a 7 movie run you could feel the affect of their breakup, but not this soon.

The Enterprise is destroyed in the 3rd movie, but without seeing enough of it and the crew getting attached to it, there was no impact.

We missed out on all the things that made classic--like the McCoy and Spock thing, Kirk and his past loves, the characters growing into their ranks, etc.

It was like the series was telling us a lot of time, experience and bonding occurred instead of actually showing us. It just leaves you with the question, what's the rush on everything?

imo (and with the benefit of hindsight considering it looks like theres only to be 3 JJverse movies) Beyond may as well have been dealing with the cataclysmic events of ST09 (via the Orci script) and potentially wrapping up the JJverse like just conclude it all in a neat bow like The Dark Knight Rises (ST09/ID were seeking to emulate Batman Begins/TDK anyway - might as well have done it for the 3rd)..obviously not necessarily wiping out the kelvinverse at the end but just made the movie more about the timeline diverge and the effects of that (which STID was abit to a certain extent in dealing with an alternate version of SpaceSeed/TWOK) and maybe seeking to restore stuff in an Avengers Endgameish way (which could've been fun for the anniversary)- instead of treating Beyond unconnected (bar the death of George references) so it was playing like the latest chapter in the new ongoing universe that would be explored in future films/tv shows (which was obviously the original intention back in 09 but hasn't happened and now its all gone back to Prime).

that looked to be the path the 4th may have been taking with the Hemsworth script that was possibly adapted from the Orci ST3 (and maybe Tarantino's script too) so maybe it could still happen - just do a final 'wrap up' kelvinverse movie (what Beyond should've been) involving getting the movie series back to the Primeverse

 

[fireproof78]

Kirk is disillusioned and wants to apply for admiral after just 3 years into their mission. But after just 3 years this gives the feeling that this is happening way too quick into the series.

I don't agree. I think it is a part of Kirk's arc because he lived in the shadow of his father for so long and suddenly he is faced with a longer life than his dad.

Spock and Uhura break up, but we never got to see enough of their relationship. Maybe after a 7 movie run you could feel the affect of their breakup, but not this soon.

Why not? Spock demonstrated a lot of struggles with being able to communicate in the relationship and profound avoidance.

The Enterprise is destroyed in the 3rd movie, but without seeing enough of it and the crew getting attached to it, there was no impact.

Agree to disagree. The visual of Kirk in the pod as the Enterprise went down was haunting for me. And I was really upset when he blew up the rest of the saucer because I had hoped some of it could have been salvaged.

We missed out on all the things that made classic--like the McCoy and Spock thing, Kirk and his past loves, the characters growing into their ranks, etc.

Why do we need all of that? I don't understand this demand to repeat it beat for beat TOS. Kirk is demonstrated to be struggling with relationships, his sense of identity, and only McCoy really understands Kirk. Kirk's journey is one of self-discovery, his place within the larger scheme of things. His destiny, as Spock would put it.

 

[Nyotarules]

^ nuKirk needs therapy, he should see Dr Adams

 

[Malaika]

Kirk is disillusioned and wants to apply for admiral after just 3 years into their mission. But after just 3 years this gives the feeling that this is happening way too quick into the series.

Spock and Uhura break up, but we never got to see enough of their relationship. Maybe after a 7 movie run you could feel the affect of their breakup, but not this soon.

Both these aspects aren't the point, though. Therefore, they aren't important nor something you need to take too serioustly.
That may not sound too eloquent so let me elaborate my point a bit.

Kirk didn't really want to leave the ship to be an Admiral because he liked that job all the sudden; it was just a pretext to find an alternative to a job he was questioning in that moment. If you think about it, we may perceive their careers as exciting but space might, after a while, make even the most trained people homesick. It must be weird to live in space for years (*this is something trek should definitely explore more. After all, even in our time experts are already questioning how to preserve the psychological health of Astronauts if they spend too much time in space. It's a real issue) . In Kirk's case, maybe he felt becoming the captain was rushed and he was questioning if he really wanted that. Still, there was a hint from the start that he didn't want to lose the connection with Starfleet ... the door wasn't completely closed yet.
The point isn't making you believe he truly wants to be an Admiral. The point is he's being unsure and maybe a bit depressed, and the question is how he will change his mind and rediscover why he wants to be in space. He needs to lose his ship and crew to understand how much they mean to him.

With Spock and Uhura, both the break up and them getting back together happen offscreen because the point isn't them breaking up. For one, they aren't having relationship issues such as getting tired of each other or falling out of love.
Lin and Jung tried to explain this aspect: they wanted to push the relationship further and advance it, but they also wanted to acknowledge what had happened previously to Spock.
Now, if Spock has, essentially, survivor guilt where he feels like what he wants doesn't matter and his duty is helping vulcans, they have to necessarily show how that affects his personal relationship too. It's inevitable. Without too much screentime, an implied break up is the easiest way to address that but they also give us hints and evidence that the characters still love each other (him possibly leaving is their only obstacle at this point of the story) so when Spock decides to stay, they'll be back together. In fact, his feelings for her may also become one further pretext for tptb to make his decision to stay more believable without having to make the effort of explaining us in full details why he doesn't leave or why what happened in the movie may have made him realize his place is with her and his friends. Almost dying and losing her and everything can do that to a person. Add that he wasn't too sure about his decision, to begin with ( 'I had intended to discuss things further with her'), the door was never really closed for Spock either.

While it's true we didn't see a lot of the relationship ( and it's a pity), what we saw was enough to make it one of the aspects of this trek that many fans loved. So I would be more careful suggesting that if they broke up for good or one of them died, no one would care..as if their bond doesn't matter when, honestly, it's no less important and meaningful for the story and the characters than the old school relationships are in this trek. This especially after everything these characters went through in the story. I'd say I care more precisely because they have to survive these issues.

I find their dynamic is among the most successfull of this trek in terms of writing and feeling authentic to me in spite of, relatively, getting not a lot of screentime. It isn't the be all end all of the story but maybe it's what makes it good too, in a way. They do get an arc in all the 3 movies but it's mostly a dignified romance with two characters who don't care about being an over the top hollywood romance. I love the little background moments they get such as the scene from into darkness where he walks to her when admiral Marcus wants to destroy their ship; or the worried but-i-can't-stop-her look on his face when she asks Kirk to let her speak klingon. For people like me who actually do notice such details, it's the stuff that truly adds heart and humanity to movies that may not have too much screentime to give to personal relationships (the way a TV series could for example).
Their more 'in your face' moments are dignified too. The way Spock embraces her back in the turbolift speaks volumes to me and it instantly tells me what the characters mean to each other without the narrative having to explain everything. His speech to her in into darkness also was a poignant way to tell her 'I love you' with his own words in his own way without turning him into a caricature. The way he looks at her before going after Khan (when she's like 'go get him') is an effective hint of character development that is completed (the arc about him needing to understand how to be accountable to those he loves) by the scene in beyond where he tells her that he appreciates and respects her concern for him (=her feelings).

The Enterprise is destroyed in the 3rd movie, but without seeing enough of it and the crew getting attached to it, there was no impact.

I agree with you here, but from a different perspective. I think one of beyond's problems is EXACTLY the fact many fans of the first movies may have perceived it as a depressing mess where the new team was essentially ditching and undoing everything the other team did. Everything those fans actually liked and wanted to see more of. That culminated with the ship getting destroyed too which may come across as the metaphoric final nail in the coffin.

I don't think the creative team wanted to truly ditch the first movies, but I believe a lot of the audience that made beyond fail got that impression and it doomed a movie that already struggled attracting the general audience with its main plot. Promotion didn't help either but, again, it was mostly Pegg&co's fault because they were the ones who essentially gave kelvin trek fans the impression their movie was more or less made to placate haters. And of course, some of the old fans didn't help them when they made reviews where they called this movie an extended tos episode and they praised the creative team for ditching JJ. It doesn't matter if the actual movie is really like that, it's the prejudice.
I think Pegg&co made choices that backfired. In their position, as the new team, it might have been already too easy for some to take it almost for granted that they'd ditch everything the other team had done.

It doesn't help that Lin honestly is not an excellent storyteller. JJ added character moments. Lin removed them. Beyond started a lot of subplots, but he doesn't give to their development and resolution enough space. Ditto for the different 'duos'. Uhura and Sulu basically have no bonding scene giving us a glimpse of their friendship (pity because IMO their dynamic had the most potential, actually, with them being the ones who were with the crew at Krall's base) There are many good ideas or potential, but they aren't developed enough. That is indisputable for me.

To be fair, making movies is a complex thing. A director's job can be extremely frustrating because they have so much material in their hands but they are forced to 'summarize' it all by the studio that doesn't care and demands the movie to fit into an established running time. This happened to poor Lin too. However, that's where the director' skills and talent as storyteller also show.

Personally, sometimes I just think the crisis the characters may face due to the villain and/or the dangers they find themselves into as starfleet officers is enough to fill the drama quota. In Spock's case, for example, his conflict in beyond would make more sense in stid, right after st09, than 3 years later. Inevitably, it doesn't get enough development in a busy movie like beyond and I feel Mccoy's line about Spock 'having to make vulcan babies' cheapens it a bit when you don't have the time to address the fact that, logically, Spock is half human himself so whether he has kids with a human or a vulcan is a moot point. That isn't the only way he can help the vulcans either. It's an irresponsible message to send too, in a way, to not address the fact that his kids with Uhura wouldn't be 'less valid' as vulcans and thus people who can help their legacy survive. Mccoy's comment clashes with the fact that Spock, of all the people, cannot believe that when he's biracial himself and struggled being considered a 'valid' vulcan for that reason. I always found the idea that Spock is the only mixed vulcan alive incredibly naive, anyway. Sarek cannot be the only guy who fell in love with a person from another planet.

If you want to advance Spock's relationship with Uhura, I think the angst about, you know, them being separated when their ship gets destroyed should be sufficiently poignant especially when the characters basically don't even know if the other is still alive. That also mirrors the state the whole crew would be in. For instance, Mccoy should be scared about the fact he doesn't know if his best friend is alive. You also have Kirk's own desperation and responsibility he feels towards his crew. Lastly, you have Uhura and Sulu being the only commanding officers who are with the rest of the crew at the base so show how they cope with that and them all trying to stay strong and help each other. Imagine how traumatizing that experience was for Uhura and Sulu when Krall also made them see what he could do to them all.
The movie had enough to work with. It didn't necessarily need to add ulterior conflicts to Kirk and Spock that the narrative ultimately doesn't have enough time to fully develop. It's wasted opportunities.

It was like the series was telling us a lot of time, experience and bonding occurred instead of actually showing us. It just leaves you with the question, what's the rush on everything?

This is a valid, general, criticism.
I definitely feel they could've done more with the characters and their dynamics with set up of the first movies. They were naive taking too many things for granted and weren't so clever with the way they used the little screentime they had. As a result, it feels like the movie wasted the potential this trek had (I feel the same about into darkness too tbh) and as someone who really liked the first movie, I'm still kind of "waiting" for the 'real' sequel that I'll never get.
Consolation prize is that this trilogy ultimately didn't, overall, disappoint me like others did. It could've been much much worse.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Kirk didn't really want to leave the ship to be an Admiral because he liked that job all the sudden; it was just a pretext to find an alternative to a job he was questioning in that moment. If you think about it, we may perceive their careers as exciting but space might, after a while, make even the most trained people homesick.

Agree to disagree. The visual of Kirk in the pod as the Enterprise went down was haunting for me. And I was really upset when he blew up the rest of the saucer because I had hoped some of it could have been salvaged.

Kirk's disillusion may have been misinterpreted by some fans, but that's the problem. All they see is Kirk going from cadet to captain instantly in the first movie, and then 3 years later appears bored and wants to apply for admiral.

I know it's much more complex than that, but that's how it's going to appear to some people.

If we got to see the crew living on the Enterprise, having parties, celebrating holidays, socializing, etc, we can get a sense of real bonding occuring.But basic the sequence we see is ---

1st movie- Kirk is given command of the Enterprise. 2nd movie-- Kirk takes the enterprise to capture Khan. 3rd movie the Enterprise is destroyed.

That may be exaggerating , but that's probably how everything appears to a lot of fans and movie goers.

Nightdiamond said: ↑
We missed out on all the things that made classic--like the McCoy and Spock thing, Kirk and his past loves, the characters growing into their ranks, etc.

Why do we need all of that? I don't understand this demand to repeat it beat for beat TOS. Kirk is demonstrated to be struggling with relationships, his sense of identity, and only McCoy really understands Kirk. Kirk's journey is one of self-discovery, his place within the larger scheme of things. His destiny, as Spock would put it.

Basically this is a very important aspect of TOS and the crew. You cant underestimate this. Even Karl Urban (McCoy) complained that McCoy was badly underused. He almost didn't sign on for Beyond, until he saw that the character had more to do.

We're not talking the characters re-enact scenes from TOS, but to see the chemistry their characters had.

So, all the things about Kirk's self discovery are going to fly right over some movie goers heads unless they can see actual bonding, experience and history occur, and the series had a tendency to skip over that.

As it is, seeing Kirk go from cadet to captain was already a credibilty hit for some. Then they see more adventures than they do chemistry or --because the crew got promoted and plugged into their roles so quickly.

I remember the scene of Kirk meeting Uhura for the first time and trying to hit on her, more than I do the action scenes on the big giant drill. That's the stuff that fans are going to talk about after the movies are over.

 

[fireproof78]

That may be exaggerating , but that's probably how everything appears to a lot of fans and movie goers.

That's unfortunate, but it is an exagerration. And, even if that is "a lot of fans" that's not the fans hear. The film has depth, has chemistry and has heart.

We're not talking the characters re-enact scenes from TOS, but to see the chemistry their characters had.

I think the chemistry is there. I agree with you that the pacing of the films doesn't do it any favors but there is plenty of chemistry. Otherwise, the first film would not have worked.

Case in point...

I remember the scene of Kirk meeting Uhura for the first time and trying to hit on her, more than I do the action scenes on the big giant drill. That's the stuff that fans are going to talk about after the movies are over.

I could talk about several different scenes like that, little moments, that build that chemistry. Kirk's moment with Prime Spock, Kirk and Scotty bantering, Spock and McCoy bickering, as well as the whole crew coming together to solve the problem.

I'm truly sorry that "so many fans" miss it for the action scenes but these films have chemistry in spades.

 

[F. King Daniel]

People get disillusioned with life sometimes and crave a change. It's only fans who think Kirk MUST LOVE THE EXPLORATION AND IDEALS OF STARFLEET!!!!!11!!1oneoneone who refuse to see the plot for what it is.

 

[Malaika]

Kirk's disillusion may have been misinterpreted by some fans, but that's the problem. All they see is Kirk going from cadet to captain instantly in the first movie, and then 3 years later appears bored and wants to apply for admiral.

I know it's much more complex than that, but that's how it's going to appear to some people.

The problem is the movie is 3 years later and that kind of conflict is a way for the writers to hint at the passing of time. I don't have issues with the conflict because it makes sense to me.

However, in beyond it seems tptb robbed us of truly seeing the five years mission and how the bonds in the crew were formed. The way st09 and stid ended, you were promised to finally see them on their mission and thus them becoming a good team..but beyond starts at almost the end of the mission where everything is literally destroyed in the first minutes. They tell us they are a good team but we never really saw their adventures.

Even Karl Urban (McCoy) complained that McCoy was badly underused. He almost didn't sign on for Beyond, until he saw that the character had more to do.

All due respect to Urban but projecting tos on kelvin trek isn't a good idea, and neither is his insistence that, somehow, Mccoy cannot have an important role if he doesn't have the same exact dynamic he had in tos with Kirk and Spock. It's different treks from different eras hence different purposes.

Aside from the fact that he risks getting placed in the same box of those fans who complain that Uhura, the woman, 'replaced' him and demand the white men status quo must get preserved in perpetuity just because it was like that in tos - and I don't think he wants that.
I'm not saying he has that kind of mindset, but he certaintly was a tad disingenuos with his trying to get feminist points with all that preaching about equality for women and/or diversity in trek just because Sulu is implied gay and they add rank on the female uniform in beyond, in the same breath he seems to be adamant the priority of this trek is becoming the same 'white guys front and center' fest dynamic tos was or it isn't valid.

They changed the main dynamic a bit because for one, it's supposed to be a modern trek iteration where you don't 'upgrade' the special effects only. They made Kirk and Spock co-protagonists and made them more contemporary characters too. Kirk doesn't need his friends to be the devil and angel on his sides, and Spock isn't just his nerdy fake-cold sidekick who allows Kirk and Mccoy to play the 'normal' humans. Spock has his own story. Kirk has Mccoy, Spock has Uhura. They are more equal.

You can't have the same spock/mccoy dynamic here because this Spock doesn't try to pass for a Vulcan only. He doesn't pretend annoyance at humans, he doesn't pretend he has no feelings. He has no issues with Mccoy. Their love/hate relationship cannot be mutual like in tos because this Spock doesn't have the same delusions and no one is really 'teaching' him about humans here. Spock IS part human himself. His mother was human. His girlfriend is human. Mccoy cannot tell this Spock stuff like, oh you cannot understand what it means loving someone. Most importantly, this Spock is a survivor who has experienced a terrible tragedy and Mccoy knows.
Fans don't want to hear that but tos Mccoy was, at times, a 'racist white guy from the south who hates everything that is different ' stereotype. In context of the 60s you could justify it a bit by blaming it on the cultural limits tptb had, but you cannot propose something like that in modern trek, to nowaday kids, without his character coming across as problematic and completely out of place with the reality he's supposed to be in where people aren't just the humans.

My point is you can create a new spock/mccoy dynamic that makes sense for this context and the integrity of this version of the characters. The insistence it must be totally like tos to be valid..I disagree with that because, if anything, making it too much like tos pretty much invalidates the point of this trek.

At the same time, I still feel their dynamic in beyond was forced because I don't co-sign the idea two characters must interact at any cost and all the time just because they did in tos. Why couldn't Spock interact with Sulu too, for example? A reboot is a good occasion to give us things that are new and never happened in tos.
It's lame that Spock had to be stuck with Mccoy, thus the narrative had to find pretexts to make them interact, the whole movie. It screams the writers desperately trying to placate those who wanted to see that dynamic. It doesn't feel organic to me.
Also, on the surface it may give Mccoy more screentime but from my perspective it sidelined Spock a bit compared to the first movies. Kirk and Uhura get a more active role in the plot than him and they interact with more characters, including the villain.

To be honest, I don't even agree that Mccoy has a better role and more to do in beyond. I disagree with Urban about his character in st09 and stid. It's not true he didn't have a role: he has one that makes sense for the integrity of the character. Mccoy isn't an action hero, he cannot easily hold a phaser and kill the enemy just like that. He's a doctor, there is conflict. In stid, he has that role. And still, the writers also allowed him to be part of the mission at the beginning (anyone remembers the hilarious opening scene with him and Kirk running away from the natives? ) without that feeling forced. Stid is a busy, very Kirk focused, movie where the secondary characters admittedly don't have a lot of space but I disagree Mccoy's role in beyond is necessarily better than what was written previoustly JUST BECAUSE he interacts with Spock more.
Yes, he does but he mostly listens to his issues only. The narrative spends no time giving Mccoy a voice about his own feelings. Urban complained that stid only inferred his relationship with Kirk but when comparing and contrasting it to beyond, I see that in stid both Kirk and Mccoy were allowed to worry about their friend and express that..beyond doesn't have that. It's all about Mccoy reminding Spock that he's important to Kirk. But Mccoy doesn't even know that Kirk himself wants to leave so he conveniently isn't allowed to have his own sad feelings about possibly losing his friend. It's all about Kirk and Spock, never really about Mccoy too.

In stid, Mccoy wasn't allowed to be there when Kirk died but still, he was the one who only cared about saving Kirk and not seek revenge like Spock did. He has the better role there. He was the one who was there with Kirk when he woke up and he's the one who reminds him that him and Uhura deserved some credit too for saving him.
When Pike dies, it's Mccoy and Uhura who ask Kirk how he feels. It's Mccoy who tells him that he isn't 'ok' and he's worried about his state of mind. And it's mutual because later when Mccoy is in danger, Kirk is allowed to be visibly affected by that.

IMO, Urban was too focused on complaining about what his character and this trek doesn't have that he doesn't appreciate enough what it does have already. After all, Mccoy never was the co-protagonist in tos either so complaining you get 'nothing' in this trek isn't exactly fair, especially towards the other secondary characters who got even less. He should also make an effort, if he truly cares about trek being 'trek' not just in the nostalgia department, to understand that some changes aren't necessarily bad and that, in the end, some things aren't mutually exclusive anyway.

Some fans may still complain that they didn't see the same 'chemistry' between the characters (I disagree. It isn't the same like tos but no less valid) , however I have to accidentally point up that maybe some fans are partly to blame if tptb rushed some things (see the kirk/spock dynamic too). Fans didn't really give the writers a chance, imo, to gradually develop some things on their own. Some people demanded everything to be like tos from the start, asap, and when the writers did that they called it forced or complained they were just stealing stuff from tos. The writers felt the pressure of trying to placate old fans all the while preserving their own needs as writers to do their own new thing; it was a lost battle by default, Imo.