Sign here if you liked 8472

[mackula]

Very cool! Would have liked to have seen them used more.

 

[DarKush]

I hated VOY at first, but man, "Scorpion" is still one of my favorite Trek episodes of all time. The pacing, the acting, the mood, all of it just came together in a way I had never seen it do on VOY. Species 8472 had a great look and just exuded menace. I hadn't felt such a thrill since "Q Who" and "The Jem'Hadar", when I knew I was in the presence of a totally awesome adversary. They looked so alien and their ships and technology were so cool. I was a big Borg fan at that time, but I sure wanted Species 8472 to wipe them out. I thought "Scorpion" did a great job introducing them, and "Scorpion Pt. 2" wasn't too much of a letdown. I also enjoyed that episode with the Hirogen hunting one of Species 8472, but I should've known VOY writers didn't know what to do with a cool idea and eventually we got "In the Flesh". I thought that Species 8472 was an opportunity for VOY to really step up and create an enemy unique to their show that was just as good or better than the Borg or the Dominion. But unfortunately, the writers decided to over-Borg us.

Alas, Species 8472 had a lot of potential. Hopefully it will get realized in VOY novels or comics one day. Other underused races were the Vaadwaur (great name) and the Swarm (what happened to those guys?). I also thought more could've been done with the Voth.

 

[Kai Winn]

well, it doesn' really work with neither borg nor 8472. great villains must interact personally with the heroes, such as dukat and khan did. they need personality. the borg collective has none, that's probably why they introduced the queens, and 8472 was too alien. sort of the third space thingis of b5. i wonder who copied from whom.

 

[DarKush]

To some extent I see your point KW, but I disagree. The villains don't always have to interact (dialogue, emotional exchanges, etc.) with the heroes, they don't have to always have personality if their purpose is to elicit certain emotions or responses from the heroes, the people we are supposed to care about anyway. The xenomorphs from Aliens are great villians, but they don't have necessarily identifiable personalities. To me they are great because of the challenge they present to the heroes or protagonists. I think Species 8472 and the pre-First Contact Borg fit into that mold.

Though I do see how great villains like your namesake, Dukat, Khan, Madred, Seska, etc. worked because of their interactions and personal histories with the protagonists. It definitely makes for a longer term villain. The danger with the Borg, Species 8472, etc. is they come on a like a force of nature and to keep the threat level up they should be one-shots or used sparingly. Even with Q, a similar force of nature, yet one that could interact with the heroes, they had to soften him up a bit from 'Encounter at Farpoint' and change him from being an outright villain to more of a pest.

 

[foxmulder710]

They were amazing and wonderful.

For a villain.

 

[mirandafave]

Terrific enemy and kewl. However, the practicalities of brining them to the screen would have meant more In the Flesh like episodes. And in the flesh would have been a better episode if the revealed enemy was someone other than Species 8472.

 

[Anwar]

I thought that Species 8472 was an opportunity for VOY to really step up and create an enemy unique to their show that was just as good or better than the Borg or the Dominion. But unfortunately, the writers decided to over-Borg us.

VOY didn't have access to huge armadas to throw at the 8472 and get annihilated to show off how tough they were, like TNG and DS9. VOY was too limited to have an enemy like that, without making the crew look like a bunch of incompetents who couldn't face off with an enemy and win. Plus the Borg were cheaper to use.

 

[Kegg]

VOY didn't have access to huge armadas to throw at the 8472 and get annihilated to show off how tough they were, like TNG and DS9.

Sure they were.

In fact, they did.

That's more or less exactly what happens in the very first appearance of 8472: Borg Cubes getting trashed by these aliens. To demonstrate how powerful the Jem'Hadar were on their first appearance, DS9 had them trash a stand-in for the Enterprise-D, for the 8472 we saw them effortlessly destroy one or two ships who were stand-ins for the titanic, unstoppable thing that wiped the deck with Starfleet in Wolf 359.

The only problem is the moment 8472 are made that strong, Voyager has to become an ally with another major power in the Delta Quadrant to depict that sort of war. Which, obviously, was the whole point of "Scorpion".

 

[DarKush]

Anwar,

Part of the reason for creating a nearly unstoppable force like Species 8472 is to really put our heroes in danger and to have the audience on the edge of their seats trying to figure out how the heroes will pull it out. Voyager, being alone, made the situation even more dire and suspenseful, at least for the first couple Species 8472 episodes. Even with the vast resources of the Federation, the Borg cut through them like butter and the Dominion was made into almost nearly an equal threat. We never saw the full depth of their military capacity due the timely intervention of the Prophets.

Now, the only problem I see when putting villains like Species 8472 and the Borg on VOY and having them appear frequently is that each time they have to be defeated by our heroes it diminishes their threat potential. VOY overdid the Borg, to the extent that they exhibited little fear at taking on the Borg or even getting assimilated. I mean, it took Picard a decade or more to overcome his assimilation by the close of the show's run. Though Janeway, Tuvok, and Torres were perhaps not fully assimilated into the Collective, they had to have had body parts removed and cybernetic implants implaced. Their minds, except for Tuvok's, might not have been violated, but their bodies were and there wasn't any follow up to that. But at least it took the VOY writers a few years to neuter the Borg, they did it fairly quickly by turning Species 8472 into cheap knockoffs of the Changelings and having 'Boothby' be their leader.

I do agree that using the Borg were cheaper and the Borg had more name recognition, but for creative reasons, I think Species 8472 was much better and could've helped VOY be more than TNG-lite.

 

[Anwar]

And how were they to do it? They didn't have any allies in the DQ who could EVER stand up to the 8472 and defeat them in combat, it just gets ridiculous if they kept up the alliance with the Borg, and it would've been silly if they managed to escape every situation with the 8472 even without defeating them in combat because it's been shown that the 8472's power is so far beyond VOY's they could never outrun or outgun them.

And besides, VOY was on the move all the time and could never maintain the same enemies unless they were more powerful than VOY to follow them all the time. Why would the 8472 be to obsessed with hunting them across the galaxy anyways?

They needed to do something to get rid of the 8472 so the audience wasn't left hanging with the "Wait, they didn't deal with those super-aliens who want to kill everyone" situation, and they knew it couldn't be some military victory.

What you're suggesting would've required VOY to not be on the move, and to have access to armadas of friendly vessels to throw at the 8472 and get killed to keep up their menace. It's not like they could destroy VOY. VOY was not intended to be DS9 part two.

And they couldn't have the Borg assimilate the 8472, because then the Borg would so ungodly powerful nothing could have stopped them.

 

[Kegg]

Keeping up the shooting war between the 8472 and the Borg might have been interesting, with Voyager trying to Toshiro Mifune in Yojimbo the situation, that is, play both sides off against each other... or maybe just trying to stay the hell out of their way.

This would be preferable for a number of reasons. For starters, it'd mean when the Voyager is confronting the Borg there'd be an actual reason why they aren't swatted like flies which is better conceived than the rational Voyager's writers tended to fall back on.

 

[Anwar]

That would just make it worse, because then the Borg would constantly be chasing VOY in order to get their nanoprobe weapon data. How they heck could they survive that? And if you say "the 8472 would show up to fight them" then that also is worse because they should also be chasing after VOY to destroy them and the nano-weapon.

So in that case, VOY would have the 8472 AND the Borg both now actively out for them. They'd be dead in 5 seconds or less in that universe.

Plus, those who missed Scorpion would be too confused over who these new aliens are.

Best to just get rid of the 8472 after they finish their role in the plot, in a way that makes sure they aren't a threat anymore, and leave the Borg as is.

 

[Kegg]

That would just make it worse, because then the Borg would constantly be chasing VOY in order to get their nanoprobe weapon data. How they heck could they survive that? And if you say "the 8472 would show up to fight them" then that also is worse because they should also be chasing after VOY to destroy them and the nano-weapon.

The Borg could have gotten ahold of the weapon already or the 8472 could have developed a countermeasure that rendered it moot, or whatever. Or the nanoprobes could have become to VOY what wormholes were to Farscape - wind up a sort of superweapon nuclear deterrent that both sides want and will go at any length to have, even if that includes bartering with VOY.

Point is, there's a story there.

Plus, those who missed Scorpion would be too confused over who these new aliens are.

Just like those who missed previous Borg eps may not know who the Borg are, or previous Kazon episodes... etc.

The 8472 are bad news. That's really all there is too them and all one really needs to know.

 

[Anwar]

It's not the same as the Farscape thing, because in this case both sides are FAR more powerful and advanced than VOY and could easily track them down and destroy them. With Moya they were harder to track, and the wormhole weapons turned out to be something Crichton could use on both sides to get them to stand down. In VOY's case they'd never have been able to use them in a strong enough capacity to kill enough of the 8472, and they'd be helpless against the Borg no matter what unless they did something that the audience would hate (like in every last Borg episode VOY ever did) for VOY to survive.

Plus, the Peacekeepers and Scarrans allowed for individual characters who had personal relationships to the cast. Not so with the Borg and 8472, so it's still boring.

And if the Borg got their hands on the weapons then the Trekverse is f***ed since now they'd overpower the 8472, probably assimilate them and become practically invincible.

If the 8472 overcome the nanoprobes, the Trekverse is f***ed since they'd now destroy all the Borg and proceed to kill everyone else starting with VOY.

The Borg are recognized for being from TNG and getting in a movie, the Kazon for being in the premiere episode. The 8472 weren't in a premiere or a movie, so less recognition.

 

[Kegg]

It's not the same as the Farscape thing, because in this case both sides are FAR more powerful and advanced than VOY

VOY actually has weapons, which Moya didn't.

and could easily track them down and destroy them.

Ease depends on how the writers chose to handle it. Maybe Seven of Nine can tech the tech countermeasure that makes the Borg tech harder to tech where Voyager is. Tech.

Plus, the Peacekeepers and Scarrans allowed for individual characters who had personal relationships to the cast. Not so with the Borg and 8472, so it's still boring.

This is a definite flaw. We've seen the writers deal with humanising the 8472 and Borg by using Boothby and the Queen, the latter of which had precedence in First Contact - so something similar could have been done here.

And if the Borg got their hands on the weapons then the Trekverse is f***ed since now they'd overpower the 8472, probably assimilate them and become practically invincible.

If the 8472 overcome the nanoprobes, the Trekverse is f***ed since they'd now destroy all the Borg and proceed to kill everyone else starting with VOY.

Or... arms race. Both sides continue to one-up each other technologically and remain about equal. It really depends on how the writers choose to let this roll.

The Borg are recognized for being from TNG and getting in a movie, the Kazon for being in the premiere episode. The 8472 weren't in a premiere or a movie, so less recognition.

Hirogen, Malon, the Hiearchy, Vidiians. You're doing VOY too little credit here, it was able to process and use the idea of a recurring alien race, though it tended to cycle through them with time.

 

[Anwar]

Yes, but VOY's weapons were all but useless against the Borg and 8472 (which is why everyone hated every time VOY's weapons did something).

The use of technobabble on VOY is already something the show is abused for. Having Seven think up something that would make VOY harder to be tracked by the Borg would just be something else the audience would hate about the show since a race as advanced as the Borg shouldn't be fooled by any cloaks or stuff VOY can dish out.

As for the Boothby and Queen usage, we've both seen how the audience reacted to THOSE developments.

It doesn't matter what the writers chose to do, continuing the Borg/8472 conflict would have ultimately resulted in one overcoming the other, spelling doom for the Trekverse in the process. The 8472 had to be removed from the series in a way that permanently ended their threat, without involving the Borg.

And if you think up a "well, how about they destroy each other totally?" thing, the audience would hate that VOY got rid of both the Borg and 8472. Plus they'd hate that it was one ship on it's own that played a role in this even though both the Borg and 8472 were ACTIVELY OUT TO GET THEM, and not some big war that involved the entire Federation. Or some nonsense like that.

 

[Kegg]

Yes, but VOY's weapons were all but useless against the Borg and 8472 (which is why everyone hated every time VOY's weapons did something).

So the nanoweapon could become their wormhole technology.

The use of technobabble on VOY is already something the show is abused for. Having Seven think up something that would make VOY harder to be tracked by the Borg would just be something else the audience would hate about the show since a race as advanced as the Borg shouldn't be fooled by any cloaks or stuff VOY can dish out.

This is the same show which suggests that VOY combined with Borg help could create a weapon that would give the Borg a major strategic edge. If they can do that, then saying they can also give themselves strategic edges with the aid of Seven is actually a natural step from the premise. The problem would be with the premise that VOY could have such power at all... and take that power away and all of a sudden they wouldn't be a priority, which would mean they wouldn't need a tech way to hide.

[qupte]It doesn'tmatter what the writers chose to do, continuing the Borg/8472 conflict would have ultimately resulted in one overcoming the other, spelling doom for the Trekverse in the process. They had to be removed from the series in a way that permanently ended their threat.
[/quote]
Not necessarily. Traditionally the winner in most protracted wars between two major parties is a third party. They could just exhaust their warmaking activities over time and eventually be forced into a truce or whatever.

 

[Anwar]

So the nanoweapon could become their wormhole technology.

Which still wouldn't do jack sh*t against the Borg ships out to get them, or the 8472 if they ever overcame them.

This is the same show which suggests that VOY combined with Borg help could create a weapon that would give the Borg a major strategic edge. If they can do that, then saying they can also give themselves strategic edges with the aid of Seven is actually a natural step from the premise.

One drone's limited modifications to a lone starship vs the resources of the entire Collective to neutralize their opponent. Not plausible.

The problem would be with the premise that VOY could have such power at all... and take that power away and all of a sudden they wouldn't be a priority, which would mean they wouldn't need a tech way to hide.

Like I said, their "power" (the nano weaponry) would be why the Borg would relentlessly chase them and probably end the show in 10 seconds. And if they ever got those weapons, then the Trekverse is ultimately f***ed.

Not necessarily. Traditionally the winner in most protracted wars between two major parties is a third party. They could just exhaust their warmaking activities over time and eventually be forced into a truce or whatever.

The Borg would never make a truce. They'd fight to their destruction, and if they ultimately won the advanced tech and new abilities they'd get from the 8472 would just result in them becoming so invincible it wouldn't matter if all they had left was one system or even one ship. And if the 8472 were the ones who won, they'd still be the major new threat to deal with that VOY couldn't survive since their weapon wouldn't be able to defeat the entire 8472 species after them all at once. A truce between them and VOY would just ruin them to the audience the way "In the Flesh" did.

And the audience would still hate that one ship was able to accomplish this all on their own.

 

[Kegg]

So the nanoweapon could become their wormhole technology.

Which still wouldn't do jack sh*t against the Borg ships out to get them, or the 8472 if they ever overcame them.

I mean in the sense of the Farscape analogy - the ultimate goddamn deterrent ever.

One drone's limited modifications to a lone starship vs the resources of the entire Collective to neutralize their opponent. Not plausible.

One drone plus the plucky resourcefulness of the VOY crew, which we already know was able to develop a weapon that the Collective could not. If the premise is implausible and scrapped (as well it probably is) then the solution I suggest is unnecessary, but if we accept the premise the solution I suggest makes sense.

The Borg would never make a truce. They'd fight to their destruction,

They made a truce with VOY out of necessity because they were facing their own destruction. This is the premise of the episode "Scorpion". Their backs to the wall and faced with annihilation, the Borg are, unsurprisingly, more malleable han usual.

And the audience would still hate that one ship was able to accomplish this all on their own.

Eh. I rolled with it on Farscape.

 

[Anwar]

I mean in the sense of the Farscape analogy - the ultimate goddamn deterrent ever.

What, you think the Borg would be dumb enough to make a weapon that would be just as effective in killing Borg as it would the 8472? Especially when they considered seeding the entire DQ with it? The nanos would work only on the 8472, leaving VOY wide-open to endless Borg attacks.

One drone plus the plucky resourcefulness of the VOY crew, which we already know was able to develop a weapon that the Collective could not.

They developed that weapon with Borg technology and aid, not wholly on their own. Them being able to shield themselves from Borg detection would just be seen as the epitome of deus ex machina.

They made a truce with VOY out of necessity because they were facing their own destruction. This is the premise of the episode "Scorpion". Their backs to the wall and faced with annihilation, the Borg are, unsurprisingly, more malleable han usual.

And again, it leaves too much unresolved. If they don't get rid of either the Borg or the 8472, then the audience is left with the "But those two guys are still out there rebuilding for the next attack". And the Borg ended up betraying VOY anyways. That's the point of the "Scorpion" tale being the title.

One of them had to be permanently removed from the series, and if it was the 8472 then the Borg couldn't be involved in it because their assimilation of 8472 would make them invincible; likewise, if the 8472 won then they'd immediately send everything after VOY and destroy them since VOY couldn't kill many of them with their nano-weapon before they got blown up.

Eh. I rolled with it on Farscape.

Double Standard. Plus Moya had the Wormhole aliens and those Priest aliens that made the Peacekeepers backing them up.