Should they bring back Janeway?

[Thrawn]

I guess that is where we differ on opinions. I don't see a change of relationship as destructive. It does enhance the canon by exploring the unexplored feelings that Janeway & Chakotay showed on the tv series.

Death however is destructive since it somewhat more permanent (however permanent death in Star Trek, or any Scifi is ofter such a relative term/fluid concept).

Ok; so a new relationship is constructive, but a death of a captain is destructive. I'm still curious, where do you draw the line? Let me give you some scenarios.

(Note: spoilers, for several books more than 1 year old)

1) Death of a main, canon character in the main, canon work. Kirk, Data, Trip, Yar, Wesley (if Janeway counts he counts), Kes, Jadzia Dax, Sisko. Constructive or destructive?

2) Death of a minor, canon character in the non-canon work. Dr. Selar, Admiral Paris, Tuvok's son, TOS's transporter dude, mirror universe characters, and the list goes on. Constructive or destructive?

3) Death of a major, non-canon character in the non-canon work. New Frontier, SCE, IKS Gorkon, Vanguard, Titan (sort of), and the TNG & Voyager Relaunches have all killed off at least one new major character. Constructive or destructive? What if the new character was my favorite character, that I liked even more than the onscreen ones? Does that change your answer?

4) Plot elements established in canon that are ignored. Right after Voyager returns from the DQ, in the first book, Tuvok's mental condition is healed and the Chakotay/Seven relationship is nullified, eliminating plot opportunities & destroying the canon show creators' original intent. Martin Madden, originally intended to be Picard's first officer, was never used in the books (ok, possibly bad example, that isn't canon). Constructive or destructive?

5) Doing what makes sense based on on-screen events, even if it's a Big Huge Deal. In Endgame, Janeway destroys the Borg transwarp hub. In Destiny, the Borg invade the Federation, intent on destroying it, because between Picard & Janeway humans have proven to be too difficult to assimilate. This builds directly off of canon situations and actions; in your own words, this "enhances already was in canon, or explores deeper what was shown in canon." It results in, as would be realistic, the deaths of several of the minor characters listed above in #2. Constructive or destructive?

6) And one last hypothetical situation - imagine your least favorite character on your least favorite Trek TV show, and imagine they die in the books, in the most heroic character-appropriate amazing sacrifice that you can think of. Is your reaction the same as your reaction to Janeway's death?

 

[kimc]

But the "Militant Janeway Fans" (Brit's own characterization) don't care about the other characters. For whatever reason, they're not Voyager fans, they're Kathryn Janeway fans. So their perspective on Voyager fiction is never going to be the same as that of people who see Voyager as what it is, an ensemble series, rather than merely a vehicle for Kathryn Janeway.

That's a gross generalization. Sure, there may be fans who watch the show just for Janeway just as there are probably DS9 fans who care only about Sisko. That doesn't mean that every Janeway fan doesn't care about the rest of the characters though. In fact, there are many Voyager fans who would list Janeway as their second or third Voyager character and may prefer the Doctor or Kes. That doesn't mean they wouldn't want to see Janeway back either.

But I swear, if after 8 more Voyager books Janeway hasn't reappeared yet in some capacity I'll make up a "bring Janeway back" interpretive dance, perform it in my underwear, and post it on Youtube, just for you.

Chill out. It'll happen.

Heck, I'd be willing to wait an extra book for Janeway's comeback just so I can sit down with a big bowl of crudites and watch!

(Not sure if anyone here will catch the veggie reference from a previous go around but thought I'd give it a shot. )

 

[kimc]

so for all we know a motivated individual could create countless duals and screw the vote to his/her liking.

Fyi, duels are illegal on this board. Anyone caught with a dual can be booted at the discretion of the admins.

By the way, that's exactly what's happening. Just out of curiosity I googled "Bring back Janeway", and the very first link was to a German Star Trek board where some members openly admit that they have created multiple accounts to vote in this poll.

What's even sadder is that some of them seem to think that this poll was set up by someone from Pocket Books because of e-Mails and letters they've sent.

Since I don't read German I wasn't able to tell if your accusation of dual accounts was true or not. However, if you believe someone is a dual then feel free to pm T'Bonz or one of the admins.

Organized spamming? I think that has been alleged, not proven.

Is an accusation still only "alleged" if the accused actually admit that they did indeed do that?

Now, I don't speak German, but Google does.

It looks like they were organizing to have each person send TWO letters to Pocket books. Not a tactic I would approve of but I imagine it happens in any letter-writing campaign - even the one to bring back TOS.

Thanks for the translation link. I didn't see anyone admitting to creating more than one TrekBBS account just to vote in this poll but again any suspected duals should be reported to the admins.

 

[Brit]

But the "Militant Janeway Fans" (Brit's own characterization) don't care about the other characters. For whatever reason, they're not Voyager fans, they're Kathryn Janeway fans. So their perspective on Voyager fiction is never going to be the same as that of people who see Voyager as what it is, an ensemble series, rather than merely a vehicle for Kathryn Janeway.

I am a militant Janeway fan, you all named me that and I embraced it. But I am also a Voyager fan, what I am not is a fan of Captain Eden or any other character that is only a place holder for what should have been Janeway's part in the story.

However, as I have said before many time in many places my absolute favorite character is Jadzia Dax, and I was a big fan of the whole Trill duel race, which was pretty much did away with in "The Worlds of DS9."

I am a big Voyager fan. Don't assume.

Brit

 

[Starbreaker]

I didn't mean anything bad about that. But no one is forcing anybody to accept the death of Janeway. If someone wants to continue reading (or hey... even write their own) where Janeway becomes queen of the known universe, that's perfectly acceptable.

My temper is running a little hot. Clearly some people join the board only to post in one thread and try to rile tempers.

 

[Thrawn]

But the "Militant Janeway Fans" (Brit's own characterization) don't care about the other characters. For whatever reason, they're not Voyager fans, they're Kathryn Janeway fans. So their perspective on Voyager fiction is never going to be the same as that of people who see Voyager as what it is, an ensemble series, rather than merely a vehicle for Kathryn Janeway.

I am a militant Janeway fan, you all named me that and I embraced it. But I am also a Voyager fan, what I am not is a fan of Captain Eden or any other character that is only a place holder for what should have been Janeway's part in the story.

However, as I have said before many time in many places my absolute favorite character is Jadzia Dax, and I was a big fan of the whole Trill duel race, which was pretty much did away with in "The Worlds of DS9."

I am a big Voyager fan. Don't assume.

Brit

Only temporarily.

And besides, why then did Ezri Dax not bother you? She was even more a "placeholder".

 

[JoeP]

But I am also a Voyager fan, what I am not is a fan of Captain Eden or any other character that is only a place holder for what should have been Janeway's part in the story.

She's not a placeholder. Nor was it ever Janeway's part.

 

[Thrawn]

But I am also a Voyager fan, what I am not is a fan of Captain Eden or any other character that is only a place holder for what should have been Janeway's part in the story.

She's not a placeholder. Nor was it ever Janeway's part.

But, don't you understand? Janeway is a female admiral, and so is Eden. So of course they're interchangeable.

Oh wait...

 

[JoeP]

But I am also a Voyager fan, what I am not is a fan of Captain Eden or any other character that is only a place holder for what should have been Janeway's part in the story.

She's not a placeholder. Nor was it ever Janeway's part.

But, don't you understand? Janeway is a female admiral, and so is Eden. So of course they're interchangeable.

Oh wait...

B-b-b-b-but that's SEXIST!!!

 

[Thestral]

There's another saying: "You get what you pay for."

And "Free[dom] is just another word for nothing left to lose."

Shouldn't you be berating captcalhoun for his endorsing of fanficiton in his signature?

Also it is disappointing to hear you value freedom so little. Our forefathers thought so much of freedom they were willing to put their lives on the line for it, so that people like you might still benefit & enjoy it even today. To them to lose freedom was to lose everthing that they held dear.

Perhaps you would be happy in a nation living under the oppressive rule of a dictator who would kill your for using freedom to express your opinion & ideas.

.....
.....


Wow. That might be one of the most extreme overreactions I've sen in a long time. And I hang out in TNZ.

No, but you're right. I hate America, I like to burn flags, I wish we lived in a "socialist/communist/fascist/Kenyan/Muslim" paradise where freedoms are trampled and capitalist pig dogs like Glenn Beck are rounded up. Also, I kick kittens down stairs, and did I mention I hate America?

I take it you're not a fan of Janis Joplin?

Also, I never said anything about disapproving of fanfic. I've no doubt there's some incredibly good fanfic out there, but you get what you pay for a lot of the time.

^ What I meant was, you're taking this WAY too seriously. Kestrel was making a joke; he was twisting around a popular saying to make fun of fan fiction. Your response was WAY more ridiculous than his original post.

And funnier too!

There is nothing wrong with fan fiction. But it is insulting, beyond belief, to say that en masse, freely distributed, online fanfic it is better than the professionally-published, licensed, tie-in literature because most fanfic has absolutely no quality control.

While individual fanfic stories may excellent - and it's certainly how many pro writers become pros - it's almost impossible to find quality stuff in the mire that is the online fanfic scene.

The only difference in fanfiction and Pocket Books (aside from the quality, probably) is an official logo on the back.

No, the licensed material is also written by professional writers, edited by professional editors, laid out by professional publishers and approved by the copyright holder. We pay $$$ so that someone else has done the grunt work of sifting through all those really awful manuscripts on the slush pile that arrives at Pocket Books.

Basically, what he said.

No one grows from the death of another, you are only traumatized.

Not true at all. Plenty of growth can come from death.

Yes. It's insulting as all get-out to say a person can't grow from the loss of death.

However, as I have said before many time in many places my absolute favorite character is Jadzia Dax, and I was a big fan of the whole Trill duel race, which was pretty much did away with in "The Worlds of DS9."

Like Thrawn said, only temporarily. And in the meantime, they told a really good story about the secrets and lies and history of the Trll, and the pain and tragedy that comes along with uncovering it.

ETA: Upped the cheese, and sorry Thrawn, it's fixed!

 

[Thrawn]

Trawn

Close, but not quite...

Great post, though. It is, indeed, insulting to say that one can never grow from death; I can think of many people, fictional and real, that reacted to the death of someone close to them in a way that spurred enormous growth, for the better and for the worse. Death happens, and reacting to it is just as interesting, dramatic, and necessary to the flow of life as reacting to anything else.

 

[Tidus79001]

But the "Militant Janeway Fans" (Brit's own characterization) don't care about the other characters. For whatever reason, they're not Voyager fans, they're Kathryn Janeway fans. So their perspective on Voyager fiction is never going to be the same as that of people who see Voyager as what it is, an ensemble series, rather than merely a vehicle for Kathryn Janeway.

Don't be so shallow as to assume that Voyager fans only care about Kathryn Janeway. I care about the series as a whole. Kathryn Janeway was just one part of the series that I am so fond of.

I am a Star Trek fan & I don't like Voyager just for one character. Voyager brought back all of what was good in Gene Roddenberry's original Star Trek vision & that is the reason I am a Voyager fan.

I like the Voyager canon, and invested 7 years watching it, and countless hours reading the novels & other media that weren't destructive to it.

I am attached & devoted to Voyager as much as the fans of the original series were devoted to that series. Just like them I will fight to keep alive the series that I know & loved.

I make no apologies for having a strong deeply rooted devotion to Voyager which is some of the best Star Trek ever created. Star Trek: Voyager to me is the most close to vision of Star Trek that Gene Roddenberry created with the original series.

Michael Piller who was one of the three executive producers of Voyager made this statement in the "Braving The Unknown" bonus feature that was included on the Voyager Season 1 DVD's

"We made it very clear that what appealed to us about that idea was that it it took us back to the basics of Roddenberry's original idea"

Jeri Taylor also said about the following about creation of Voyager on the "Braving The Unknown" bonus feature:

“We really felt it was the way to be the truest to the ideals of star Trek”

I always hear Next Generation fans & Deep Space Nine fans bash Voyager fans as being a different type to Star Trek. Deep Space Nine was the most non Star Trek series of all, but those fans don't seem to notice that. Sometime I even wonder if they ever have even watch Star Trek: The Original Series (I know that I have met a few of them who haven't, and base all of they know about Star Trek on the Next Generation fans & Deep Space Nine).

So anyone who wants to say that Star Trek: Voyager fans are a different type of fans, less relevant fans, or an inferior sort of fan is dead wrong. Star Trek: Voyager fans are the fans who like the vision of Star Trek the way that Gene Roddenberry originally envisioned it.

It seems like a lot of Next Generation fans & Deep Space Nince fans don't want to consider the Star Trek: The Original Series, or Star Trek: Voyager to be real Star Trek since it doesn't meet their personal likes of what they want in Star Trek.

 

[Thestral]

Trawn

Close, but not quite...

Whoops! Fixed though.

Great post, though. It is, indeed, insulting to say that one can never grow from death; I can think of many people, fictional and real, that reacted to the death of someone close to them in a way that spurred enormous growth, for the better and for the worse. Death happens, and reacting to it is just as interesting, dramatic, and necessary to the flow of life as reacting to anything else.

Thanks! I'd even go so far as to say death is something that needs to be addressed and dealt with. We're so good today at avoiding death, desensitizing to it, pretending it doesn't happen except on television. Until we're hit with it ourselves of course. Death, suffering, and loss happen. How we deal with it is one of the central questions of humanity and one of the core elements of many stories. Denying that denies an integral - and sacred - part of our humanity.

It's like Bridge to Terabithia. What makes that story so moving and affecting and powerful is because of the human tragedy and the pain it engenders. Without the death of Leslie Burke, the story loses its power - and its point.

Or Wit. That's a story that stares death in the face. It's painful, it's tragic, it's horrifying, and it's absolutely beautiful.

 

[Admiral James Kirk]

You know all this thread has done is make me curious about the Voyager relaunch. I've gone ahead and hunted down all the relaunch novels and managed to get them all for a reasonable price. I'll start reading once I've finished Destiny and the first half of the DS9 relaunch.

 

[JoeP]

You know all this thread has done is make me curious about the Voyager relaunch. I've gone ahead and hunted down all the relaunch novels and managed to get them all for a reasonable price. I'll start reading once I've finished Destiny and the first half of the DS9 relaunch.

Awesome news. You won't be disappointed. Well, maybe with the first 4 books...but once you hit Full Circle and Unworthy, it's really great storytelling, and Voyager at its best. Looking forward to your thoughts on them.

 

[BillJ]

But, don't you understand? Janeway is a female admiral, and so is Eden. So of course they're interchangeable.

Oh wait...

I actually thought Eden still held the rank of Captain?

You know all this thread has done is make me curious about the Voyager relaunch. I've gone ahead and hunted down all the relaunch novels and managed to get them all for a reasonable price. I'll start reading once I've finished Destiny and the first half of the DS9 relaunch.

Homecoming and The Farther Shore were both strong books. Skipped the Spirit Walk duology. I was pretty much done with Voyager books until Kirsten Beyer got ahold of it. Full Circle and Unworthy are two of my favorite Trek books. It deals with revisiting the Delta Quadrant in an interesting manner.

 

[Thrawn]

You know all this thread has done is make me curious about the Voyager relaunch. I've gone ahead and hunted down all the relaunch novels and managed to get them all for a reasonable price. I'll start reading once I've finished Destiny and the first half of the DS9 relaunch.

Yeah. I'll sort of echo the last two posters; don't be daunted by Golden's books. At best, they're mediocre. Beyer's stuff not only ties into Destiny and the ongoing continuity, but is also edited by someone else as well; it's a completely fresh start, almost a re-relaunch, and better in every way.

 

[JoeP]

But, don't you understand? Janeway is a female admiral, and so is Eden. So of course they're interchangeable.

Oh wait...

I actually thought Eden still held the rank of Captain?

Yep, you're right. She does. She wasn't promoted when Batiste left...

 

[Thrawn]

Well, either way, she's a woman that commands Chakotay, which seems to be enough for the Janeway people to think that she's nothing but a placeholder for their particular woman that commands Chakotay.

 

[BillJ]

I actually have the highest compliment for the Kirsten Beyer books:

They made me interested in going back and revisiting Voyager on DVD.