Is an accusation still only "alleged" if the accused actually admit that they did indeed do that?
Now, I don't speak German, but Google does.
Should they bring back Janeway?
- Thread starter F. King Daniel
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Is an accusation still only "alleged" if the accused actually admit that they did indeed do that?
Now, I don't speak German, but Google does.
So wait - they're making multiple accounts, encouraging several people from other websites entirely to come vote, even people that didn't read the books in the first place, and in all that sound and fury the total number is still less than 100?
Wow. What a threat to Pocket's sales.
Wow. What a threat to Pocket's sales.
Sssshhhhhh! They'll realise how small VOY's rating were back in the UPN days.
Well, not to argue against my own case here or anything, but I've actually seen that chart and VOY was effectively tied with DS9 for its whole run, and often slightly higher.
I believe that DS9's in-series novels did sell better than VOY's though, for whatever reason.
I believe that DS9's in-series novels did sell better than VOY's though, for whatever reason.
Sorry in advance for this rant, but...
..this thread has completely lost its original intent, and has now become the battleground between sane, reasonable, Trek novel readers, and Militant Followers of the worst Trek lead character in the 2nd-worst Trek Tv show
IMO, Voyager was 80% crap, and a wasted potential if there was one on a Trek series.
IMO, Voyager novels were almost always a waste of time, and some of the most pointless Trek novels - not to mention juvenile and even absurd (yes, that's your YOY Relaunc right there).
IMO, Pocket's decision to kill off Janeway was not only a great creative decision (filled with irony due to the Borg, and a play on VOY's abysmal TV finale), but a "mercy killing" for a character which had lost its way.
I know some Janeway fans will think that I'm not a real Trek fan, as I've been watching from the start of TNG and saw TOS only in reruns (maybe even that I'm a "punk"..), and it's their right, but I just want to get some real constructive answers from these guys and gals:
1. Is what you want a return to the TV status quo?
2. Will you even read the books after Janeway's back?
3. can you let everyone know how you see her return handled?
..this thread has completely lost its original intent, and has now become the battleground between sane, reasonable, Trek novel readers, and Militant Followers of the worst Trek lead character in the 2nd-worst Trek Tv show
IMO, Voyager was 80% crap, and a wasted potential if there was one on a Trek series.
IMO, Voyager novels were almost always a waste of time, and some of the most pointless Trek novels - not to mention juvenile and even absurd (yes, that's your YOY Relaunc right there).
IMO, Pocket's decision to kill off Janeway was not only a great creative decision (filled with irony due to the Borg, and a play on VOY's abysmal TV finale), but a "mercy killing" for a character which had lost its way.
I know some Janeway fans will think that I'm not a real Trek fan, as I've been watching from the start of TNG and saw TOS only in reruns (maybe even that I'm a "punk"..), and it's their right, but I just want to get some real constructive answers from these guys and gals:
1. Is what you want a return to the TV status quo?
2. Will you even read the books after Janeway's back?
3. can you let everyone know how you see her return handled?
And couldn't I just as easily say judging by the "DS9" leanings and the obvious "Woman in the Refrigerator" style of "Before Dishonor", that DS9 fans taste run more to comic book tropes.
Some of the most literate and best fan fiction on the internet is Voyager fic, but then you will never know that because you are so busy trying to discount everything about Voyager and Janeway fans, you won't let yourself see it.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Voyager fandom is largely female, they see the death of Janeway as a "let’s put the women in their place" kind of story line.
Yes we can organize, but then you can too, so what. This is a public board; it's my understanding that being a public board anyone can express their opinion. And our opinion is that killing Janeway was wrong, it has angered a lot of fans at a very bad time for any publisher.
I don't speak German either, however I've had a lot of experience last fall with good old Google The major problem is that it translates almost too literally and usually picks the most used words instead of the right ones. My experience was helping a German woman who spoke little English to translate her fic into English. To complicate this I speak no German at all.
I have asked some of my German contacts and was told that the post was made in jest as a joke, and from experience I've found google is notorious at not getting jokes. However as a mod from message board myself and a junior administrator from another, your mod should be able to sort it out, only they have to look at all votes no matter which side they are on.
What I resent most of all, is the thinking on some of your parts, that Janeway couldn't possibly have fans and just because you know some woman that didn't care for her, all women don't. I know people that wouldn't watch Trek at all in any form, but that doesn't mean that everyone dislikes Trek.
I did a little research a few weeks ago for this post in the Voyager section of the BBS, I just counted the number of hits for the following subjects in AOL’s Google search engine. I did the same again tonight.
J/C Fan Fiction – 1,060,000 hits
Kathryn Janeway – 20,200 hits
Captain Janeway – 29,900 hits
Star Trek Voyager – 548,000 hits
But one thing you may not know is most of the sites for Janeway fans are also Chakotay fans, so if you search on Janeway/Chakotay you will get Janeway fans too.
Janeway / Chakotay – 3,010,000 hits
Yes I know there are Janeway fans out there, a lot of Janeway fans.
Finally I have to tell you that the votes for Janeway should be increased by one, my daughter would have liked to vote for her too, but sadly she and I both believe that because we use the same computer you would all decide we are the same person.
Brit
Well, since Voyager's entire fleet is now being led by a woman, it appears that "putting a woman in her place" = "being replaced by another woman".
But now you'll remind me that you don't want just ANY woman, you want JANEWAY, and that the death of this PARTICULAR woman is sexist even if it was decided by a woman, the fallout was written by a woman, the character's replacement is a woman, and TrekLit has been far more egalitarian towards women from every possible angle than any of the TV shows were. Because Janeway is some kind of women empowerment symbol, so having her death decided, fulfilled, and surrounded by actual empowered women is insufficient to make up the difference.
It's a point of view I don't understand and never will. If you feel that it is sexist, then I am deeply sorry you feel that way. But I see no evidence that is the case.
But now you'll remind me that you don't want just ANY woman, you want JANEWAY, and that the death of this PARTICULAR woman is sexist even if it was decided by a woman, the fallout was written by a woman, the character's replacement is a woman, and TrekLit has been far more egalitarian towards women from every possible angle than any of the TV shows were. Because Janeway is some kind of women empowerment symbol, so having her death decided, fulfilled, and surrounded by actual empowered women is insufficient to make up the difference.
It's a point of view I don't understand and never will. If you feel that it is sexist, then I am deeply sorry you feel that way. But I see no evidence that is the case.
Of course there are Janeway fans (and I'm not even going into the gender issue of fans as it's not / shouldn't be a consideration IMO).
So how is it that out of the multitude of fans (among them "real Trek fans" as they had seen TOS way back when), we can't get a reason for bringing Janeway back other than variations on "she's a woman, I like her and VOY isn't the same without her"?
How is it, that although some people think (myself included FWIW) that Janeway was an annoying character to say the least, the reasone expressed here for her continued absence centered around moving the VOY "saga" forward, character development and giving Trek fans an example of lasting repercussions?
So how is it that out of the multitude of fans (among them "real Trek fans" as they had seen TOS way back when), we can't get a reason for bringing Janeway back other than variations on "she's a woman, I like her and VOY isn't the same without her"?
How is it, that although some people think (myself included FWIW) that Janeway was an annoying character to say the least, the reasone expressed here for her continued absence centered around moving the VOY "saga" forward, character development and giving Trek fans an example of lasting repercussions?
RonG - you're not helping
It'd be nice if we could avoid the hysteria on both sides. Your favorite character being violently murdered is a PERFECTLY valid reason to stop liking something, and you're WELL within your rights to do anything you feel would reverse that decision, including pointlessly argue about it with a bunch of "punk"s like us.
You're right about one thing, though - it's an argument between people that have read and love a story, and can discuss the details, and people for whom this particular plot development is a dealbreaker. So we're never going to be able to argue the actual merits of the story, because they won't read it.
It'd be nice if we could avoid the hysteria on both sides. Your favorite character being violently murdered is a PERFECTLY valid reason to stop liking something, and you're WELL within your rights to do anything you feel would reverse that decision, including pointlessly argue about it with a bunch of "punk"s like us.
You're right about one thing, though - it's an argument between people that have read and love a story, and can discuss the details, and people for whom this particular plot development is a dealbreaker. So we're never going to be able to argue the actual merits of the story, because they won't read it.
The idea that Janeway, who was the main character of the TV show, can be replaced by just any ol' woman (as if women are interchangable) is sexist. And just because a woman decided to do KJ in didn't mean she wasn't sexist. Sometimes women are their own worst enemies, unfortunately. And just because people don't see evidence of sexism doesn't mean there isn't any. People say the same thing about racism. It's easy to gloss things over. And it's easier to be anti-something (ie Voyager/KJ) than for something. Oh, well. PS, I read the last "Voy" book (one of many Trek books I've read), not too interesting. Not interested in any more like it. MHO. My right. GS.
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Right - exactly. No matter what I say, you can always come back with "just because there's no evidence of sexism doesn't mean it wasn't sexist". Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I get it.
I still can't figure out what would prompt you to come to that conclusion in the first place.
I mean, let me flip it around on you. Can you imagine any situation in which the character of Janeway was killed that you wouldn't think was sexist?
I still can't figure out what would prompt you to come to that conclusion in the first place.
I mean, let me flip it around on you. Can you imagine any situation in which the character of Janeway was killed that you wouldn't think was sexist?
RonG - you're not helping
It'd be nice if we could avoid the hysteria on both sides. Your favorite character being violently murdered is a PERFECTLY valid reason to stop liking something, and you're WELL within your rights to do anything you feel would reverse that decision, including pointlessly argue about it with a bunch of "punk"s like us.
You're right about one thing, though - it's an argument between people that have read and love a story, and can discuss the details, and people for whom this particular plot development is a dealbreaker. So we're never going to be able to argue the actual merits of the story, because they won't read it.
Sorry Thrawn, but some of the exchanges on this thread have been both insulting and patronizing (even to you personally, just a couple of pages ago), and while I love a good fierce debate, I won't stand by and see *my* feloow fans attacked and insulted.
So, my way of response is to try and bring to this debate a more civilized (if harsher) tone
Are you actually accusing Pocket Books, Margaret Clark, Kirsten Beyer and women who DON'T want Janeway back as sexist?
What about Sisko's fate at the end of DS9 / WYLB? was that a slap in the face for african-americans??
You're looking at physical traits (gender, in Janeway's case) and placing it above character - doesn't that sound a bit shallow? not in the spirit of Trek at all IMHO
^ We've been here before, too. Divorced from this conversation in particular, I find this viewpoint fascinating; it's so alien from my own.
It seems to me that making special rules for the female captain - she can't be killed, she must have a happy ending, she must continue to inspire - is just as sexist in the other direction. One of my favorite things the Destiny trilogy did was populate the new ships with more than 50% women, to the point where the female characters no longer seemed like token females, but were commensurate and thus completely able to stand on their own distinctiveness without gender mattering. Half the captains are female, half the first officers are female, the Enterprise-E has more female senior officers than male, the pivotal Columbia plot stars only women...
This to me is the end of sexism; stories about women being exactly as frequent, compelling, and dramatic as those about men, and nothing being off limits in either direction. As opposed to "here's a FEMALE CAPTAIN everyone, she's FEMALE! We're not sexist because we made a FEMALE CAPTAIN! She's SUPER INSPIRING and DIFFERENT FROM THE MEN and so she CAN'T DIE! We have to handle her DIFFERENTLY because she's a WOMAN!"
Why am I wrong? I still don't get it.
It seems to me that making special rules for the female captain - she can't be killed, she must have a happy ending, she must continue to inspire - is just as sexist in the other direction. One of my favorite things the Destiny trilogy did was populate the new ships with more than 50% women, to the point where the female characters no longer seemed like token females, but were commensurate and thus completely able to stand on their own distinctiveness without gender mattering. Half the captains are female, half the first officers are female, the Enterprise-E has more female senior officers than male, the pivotal Columbia plot stars only women...
This to me is the end of sexism; stories about women being exactly as frequent, compelling, and dramatic as those about men, and nothing being off limits in either direction. As opposed to "here's a FEMALE CAPTAIN everyone, she's FEMALE! We're not sexist because we made a FEMALE CAPTAIN! She's SUPER INSPIRING and DIFFERENT FROM THE MEN and so she CAN'T DIE! We have to handle her DIFFERENTLY because she's a WOMAN!"
Why am I wrong? I still don't get it.
Jadzia Dax, Delenn, Buffy Summers, Willow Rosenberg, Zoe, Zhaan...
So wait - they're making multiple accounts, encouraging several people from other websites entirely to come vote, even people that didn't read the books in the first place, and in all that sound and fury the total number is still less than 100?
Wow. What a threat to Pocket's sales.
Even aside from that, isn't making multiple accounts kinda... you know...
Fun with Google
:10/Rose Fan Fiction - 1,310,000 hits
Rose Tyler - 11,200,000 hits
Martha Jones - 4,010,000 hits
Doctor/Rose - 15,200,000 hits
Should I run a search for "Doctor Who"?
And for the lulz, anybody remember The Real Adventures of Jonny Quest?
Jessie Bannon - 530,000 hits
Darned skippy. I think most every new character I loved from Destiny was one of the women, and the most proactive and heroic of the captains were the female captains.
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Tell that to Margaret Clark, who requested that Peter David put the death of Janeway into his novel, and tell it to Paula Block, who presumably was still at CBS Consumer Products at the time, and approved the storyline for the copyright holders, and requested the Continuum strand to the book's conclusion.
If we were arguing about the death of Chakotay or Kim or Torres, would you say it represented "let's put non-white races in their place"?
All those pages of posts - pages of them - in German, about getting multiple emails to swing the TrekBBS poll voting, were jokes?
That tells me that there is so much free amateur Janeway fanfic out there, online, that people hooked on reading it never yearn to seek out licensed pro novels they need to pay for. The same argument used to come from K/S "slash" fiction fans in the 70s and 80s. They had absolutely no interest in licensed pro novels because they were spoiled for choice with their Kirk/Spock light porn, and when one of their own (eg. Della Van Hise) got a novel published, it was too tame for their tastes, despite creating a controversy all of its own.
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5) Pocket asked Peter David to kill off Janeway. He was a hired gun, not the originator of the plot.
6) It was a Next Generation novel, not a Voyager one.
I'm not sure I'm buying the "it was all a joke" view of that thread. It came to our attention because Defcon pointed it out and I'm pretty sure he's German and he didn't give an indication those posts were said in jest.
Not that that helps anything.
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