Should they bring back Janeway?

[Tidus79001]

I'm not trying to bait you, I'm trying to have a conversation!

If you would prefer, restate it this way. Under what circumstances do you think the tie-in novels should be allowed to change the status quo established in the canonical stories?

I'm trying to get a feel for your perspective here, so this doesn't just descend into meaningless hyperbole again.

I am ok with novel's adding to the canon. I think that the novels can serve to enhance what is already in the canon, or to explore deeper what was shown in the canon. I feel the the novels should be used to be a constructive forum, and not one which is destructive to what is in the canon.

Some of the very best Trek has been in the novels & people who only limit themselves to the tv shows & movies don't know what they are missing. I have had the fortune to enjoy the novels for well over 20 years & still read the new ones on a regular basis.

Personally I always thought the the novels should be treated as canon (as the Star Wars novels are considered canon to the movies & tv shows).

 

[Thrawn]

Well, the Star Wars novels are actually a good example; they have killed several canonically established main characters, including Chewbacca. In my opinion, at least, it has made for stronger stories. If the Trek novels *were* canon, then there would be no reason in your view why they couldn't do something like that, and you say that's what you want them to be.

So, did you disagree with killing Chewbacca, razing Coruscant, etc? Those were fairly destructive.

Again, I'm not trying to bait you - you mentioned you feel that killing off Janeway shouldn't have happened because she was a canonical character. I'm curious - why the difference?

 

[RonG]

By the way, IF Janeway comes back AND has a relationship with Chakotay (as I understand many of her fans want), isn't THAT a development that changes the status quo established on TV?

By that token, shouldn't Chakotay be with Seven, as that was the last time we saw them (canon-wise )?

I have a hunch that the MJF's won't object to a Novel-only development of that kind..

 

[Thrawn]

By the way, IF Janeway comes back AND has a relationship with Chakotay (as I understand many of her fans want), isn't THAT a development that changes the status quo established on TV?

By that token, shouldn't Chakotay be with Seven, as that was the last time we saw them (canon-wise )?

I have a hunch that the MJF's won't object to a Novel-only development of that kind..

In all fairness, Tidus has already posted an explanation for that - that would be constructively adding to canon, rather than destructively taking away from it. I'm just trying to get her to clarify that difference.

 

[Tidus79001]

By the way, IF Janeway comes back AND has a relationship with Chakotay (as I understand many of her fans want), isn't THAT a development that changes the status quo established on TV?

By that token, shouldn't Chakotay be with Seven, as that was the last time we saw them (canon-wise )?

I have a hunch that the MJF's won't object to a Novel-only development of that kind..

In the fanfiction wrote Voyager virtual seasons 8 & 9 new there are some new relationships explored.

I myself have never been a big fan of relationships between the characters since it usually seves as more of a distraction then it does to enhance the stories. Star Trek is Scifi & is not a soap opera. If I wanted a soap opera I would choose to watch that.

However in the Voyager virtual season 8 & 9 the relationships didn't hurt the stories, and I am ok with them.

Janeway already did have a relatioship established in the novels with Chakotay. I see no reason why Chakotay has to have the relationship with Seven just because it was explored on the Voyager tv series. Relationships change & people change & that change isn't destructive to the canon.

 

[Thrawn]

Ok, Tidus, my point is this. Let me tell you something you will NEVER hear a fan say:

"I loved this story! I loved everything about this story! It was so exciting, it used the characters perfectly, and even though some bad things happened, the ending was beautiful! BUT, it deviated too far from the canon, so I don't approve."

If you like the story, deviations from canon are perfectly acceptable. "I see no reason why Chakotay has to have a relationship with Seven just because it was explored on the Voyager tv series" - your quote. If that relationship is ignored, it is DESTRUCTIVE TO CANON. By definition - it has destroyed something established in canon; the C/S relationship. But you like it, so it's ok.

If you don't like the story... well, that's when people start saying things like "it was destructive to canon." That argument NEVER happens, unless people DON'T like the story.

Your problem with Janeway dying is NOT that it violates canon, or is destructive, or anything like that. Your problem with Janeway dying is that you don't like that story. Which is fine, you're entitled to your opinion, and no one is forcing you to read books you don't like. But quit pretending it's for some bigger, philosophical reason; it isn't.

 

[Tidus79001]

Ok, Tidus, my point is this. Let me tell you something you will NEVER hear a fan say:

"I loved this story! I loved everything about this story! It was so exciting, it used the characters perfectly, and even though some bad things happened, the ending was beautiful! BUT, it deviated too far from the canon, so I don't approve."

If you like the story, deviations from canon are perfectly acceptable. "I see no reason why Chakotay has to have a relationship with Seven just because it was explored on the Voyager tv series" - your quote. If that relationship is ignored, it is DESTRUCTIVE TO CANON. By definition - it has destroyed something established in canon; the C/S relationship. But you like it, so it's ok.

If you don't like the story... well, that's when people start saying things like "it was destructive to canon." That argument NEVER happens, unless people DON'T like the story.

Your problem with Janeway dying is NOT that it violates canon, or is destructive, or anything like that. Your problem with Janeway dying is that you don't like that story. Which is fine, you're entitled to your opinion, and no one is forcing you to read books you don't like. But quit pretending it's for some bigger, philosophical reason; it isn't.

I guess that is where we differ on opinions. I don't see a change of relationship as destructive. It does enhance the canon by exploring the unexplored feelings that Janeway & Chakotay showed on the tv series.

Death however is destructive since it somewhat more permanent (however permanent death in Star Trek, or any Scifi is ofter such a relative term/fluid concept).

 

[RonG]

Ok, Tidus, my point is this. Let me tell you something you will NEVER hear a fan say:

"I loved this story! I loved everything about this story! It was so exciting, it used the characters perfectly, and even though some bad things happened, the ending was beautiful! BUT, it deviated too far from the canon, so I don't approve."

If you like the story, deviations from canon are perfectly acceptable. "I see no reason why Chakotay has to have a relationship with Seven just because it was explored on the Voyager tv series" - your quote. If that relationship is ignored, it is DESTRUCTIVE TO CANON. By definition - it has destroyed something established in canon; the C/S relationship. But you like it, so it's ok.

If you don't like the story... well, that's when people start saying things like "it was destructive to canon." That argument NEVER happens, unless people DON'T like the story.

Your problem with Janeway dying is NOT that it violates canon, or is destructive, or anything like that. Your problem with Janeway dying is that you don't like that story. Which is fine, you're entitled to your opinion, and no one is forcing you to read books you don't like. But quit pretending it's for some bigger, philosophical reason; it isn't.

I guess that is where we differ on opinions. I don't see a change of relationship as destructive. It does enhance the unexplored feelings that Janeway & Chakotay showed on the tv series.

Death however is destructive since it somewhat more permanent (however permanent death in Star Trek, or any Scifi is ofter such a relative term/fluid concept).

Even if said death was used to highlight the deep unexplored (AND explored) feelings of your favorite VOY couple? Even if said death was used to develop VOY characters more than they ever had been??

If deah is such a fluid term in Sci Fi / Trek, you should embrace the opportunities in KJ's "death", as it enhances the VOY canon...

 

[Starbreaker]

I hate the term "canon" so much. The only difference in fanfiction and Pocket Books (aside from the quality, probably) is an official logo on the back. You don't have to accept anything that you see on TV or read in a book or on the back of an action figure is "canon." If you like the fanfic more, go read that. No one will hold it against you.

 

[Brit]

I hate the term "canon" so much. The only difference in fanfiction and Pocket Books (aside from the quality, probably) is an official logo on the back. You don't have to accept anything that you see on TV or read in a book or on the back of an action figure is "canon." If you like the fanfic more, go read that. No one will hold it against you.

Then you should be satisifed with your own fan fiction and we can have the "professional" books with pseudo "official" standings including a living Janeway. No one grows from the death of another, you are only traumatized. Growth comes from Living.

Brit

 

[Tidus79001]

Ok, Tidus, my point is this. Let me tell you something you will NEVER hear a fan say:

"I loved this story! I loved everything about this story! It was so exciting, it used the characters perfectly, and even though some bad things happened, the ending was beautiful! BUT, it deviated too far from the canon, so I don't approve."

If you like the story, deviations from canon are perfectly acceptable. "I see no reason why Chakotay has to have a relationship with Seven just because it was explored on the Voyager tv series" - your quote. If that relationship is ignored, it is DESTRUCTIVE TO CANON. By definition - it has destroyed something established in canon; the C/S relationship. But you like it, so it's ok.

If you don't like the story... well, that's when people start saying things like "it was destructive to canon." That argument NEVER happens, unless people DON'T like the story.

Your problem with Janeway dying is NOT that it violates canon, or is destructive, or anything like that. Your problem with Janeway dying is that you don't like that story. Which is fine, you're entitled to your opinion, and no one is forcing you to read books you don't like. But quit pretending it's for some bigger, philosophical reason; it isn't.

I guess that is where we differ on opinions. I don't see a change of relationship as destructive. It does enhance the unexplored feelings that Janeway & Chakotay showed on the tv series.

Death however is destructive since it somewhat more permanent (however permanent death in Star Trek, or any Scifi is ofter such a relative term/fluid concept).

Even if said death was used to highlight the deep unexplored (AND explored) feelings of your favorite VOY couple? Even if said death was used to develop VOY characters more than they ever had been??

If deah is such a fluid term in Sci Fi / Trek, you should embrace the opportunities in KJ's "death", as it enhances the VOY canon...

If using the non canon to be destruction to the canon is considered an enchantment I will take the lack of enhancement any day.

I like the Voyager canon, and invested 7 years watching it, and countless hours reading the novels & other media that weren't destructive to it.

I am attached & devoted to Voyager as much as the fans of the original series were devoted to that series. Just like them I will fight to keep alive the series that I know & loved.

I make no apologies for having a strong deeply rooted devotion to Voyager which is some of the best Star Trek ever created. Star Trek: Voyager to me is the most close to vision of Star Trek that Gene Roddenberry created with the original series.

Michael Piller who was one of the three executive producers of Voyager made this statement in the "Braving The Unknown" bonus feature that was included on the Voyager Season 1 DVD's

"We made it very clear that what appealed to us about that idea was that it it took us back to the basics of Roddenberry's original idea"

Jeri Taylor also said about the following about creation of Voyager on the "Braving The Unknown" bonus feature:

“We really felt it was the way to be the truest to the ideals of star Trek”

I always hear Next Generation fans & Deep Space Nine fans bash Voyager fans as being a different type to Star Trek. Deep Space Nine was the most non Star Trek series of all, but those fans don't seem to notice that. Sometime I even wonder if they ever have even watch Star Trek: The Original Series (I know that I have met a few of them who haven't, and base all of they know about Star Trek on the Next Generation fans & Deep Space Nine).

So anyone who wants to say that Star Trek: Voyager fans are a different type of fans, less relevant fans, or an inferior sort of fan is dead wrong. Star Trek: Voyager fans are the fans who like the vision of Star Trek the way that Gene Roddenberry originally envisioned it.

It seems like a lot of Next Generation fans & Deep Space Nince fans don't want to consider the Star Trek: The Original Series, or Star Trek: Voyager to be real Star Trek since it doesn't meet their personal likes of what they want in Star Trek.

 

[captcalhoun]

I've been asking this same question since 1977!!

At least you can say "I get paid to do this to your favorites."

As the saying goes "The best things in life are free". ;-P

There's another saying: "You get what you pay for."

And "Free[dom] is just another word for nothing left to lose."

Shouldn't you be berating captcalhoun for his endorsing of fanficiton in his signature?.

don't fucking drag me into your little shit fit, pal.

Janeway's dead in my fan-fic anyway. :P

 

[Tidus79001]

At least you can say "I get paid to do this to your favorites."



There's another saying: "You get what you pay for."

And "Free[dom] is just another word for nothing left to lose."

Shouldn't you be berating captcalhoun for his endorsing of fanficiton in his signature?.

don't fucking drag me into your little shit fit, pal.

Janeway's dead in my fan-fic anyway. :P

Get over yourself is the only response your little temper tantrum will ever get from me!

 

[captcalhoun]

expletive laden insulting post here. Not actually posted to avoid a wanring

 

[JoeP]

Then you should be satisifed with your own fan fiction and we can have the "professional" books with pseudo "official" standings including a living Janeway.

Had things shaken out that way you for sure wouldn't have seen the childish whining that's been on display here and in other threads.

No one grows from the death of another, you are only traumatized.

Not true at all. Plenty of growth can come from death.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Shouldn't you be berating captcalhoun for his endorsing of fanficiton in his signature?

There is nothing wrong with fan fiction. But it is insulting, beyond belief, to say that en masse, freely distributed, online fanfic it is better than the professionally-published, licensed, tie-in literature because most fanfic has absolutely no quality control.

While individual fanfic stories may excellent - and it's certainly how many pro writers become pros - it's almost impossible to find quality stuff in the mire that is the online fanfic scene.

The only difference in fanfiction and Pocket Books (aside from the quality, probably) is an official logo on the back.

No, the licensed material is also written by professional writers, edited by professional editors, laid out by professional publishers and approved by the copyright holder. We pay $$$ so that someone else has done the grunt work of sifting through all those really awful manuscripts on the slush pile that arrives at Pocket Books.

 

[JarodRussell]

There is nothing wrong with fan fiction. But it is insulting, beyond belief, to say that en masse, freely distributed, online fanfic it is better than the professionally-published, licensed, tie-in literature because most fanfic has absolutely no quality control.

Fanfic is already better because it is not bound to market demands. Every idea gets published, good or bad. That's a good thing.

While individual fanfic stories may excellent - and it's certainly how many pro writers become pros - it's almost impossible to find quality stuff in the mire that is the online fanfic scene.

There's a lot of really baaad stuff in the professional scene, too. What do you mean by "quality stuff"?

 

[Therin of Andor]

There's another saying: "You get what you pay for."

And "Free[dom] is just another word for nothing left to lose."

I cant help if you weren't able to see that my response was about that. If you don't like fanfiction that is your choice. No if you don't like fanfiction that doesn't make you a hater of anything since it is your freedom to like it, or not like it. It is your who brought the hate speech into this not me.

You have mis-attributed quotes here. I never said that. Someone else did. Kestrel, in fact.

 

[JarodRussell]

No, the licensed material is also written by professional writers, edited by professional editors, laid out by professional publishers and approved by the copyright holder. We pay $$$ so that someone else has done the grunt work of sifting through all those really awful manuscripts on the slush pile that arrives at Pocket Books.

Is that how you define it? Because someone gets paid to do it, it's automatically on a higher level of quality?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Fanfic is already better because it is not bound to market demands. Every idea gets published, good or bad. That's a good thing.

And you are welcome to read it!

Obviously, you've never been a fanzine editor of pre-Internet days, when the editor had to pay for all printing and distribution costs out of his/her own pocket. Imagine putting out a call for contributions and receiving, among some of the stories, appallingly written tripe - and having to tell the "author" that you really can't include it in your zine, or you'd lose customers.

Now that we have online fanfic, anyone can upload it.

I say this as a former fanfic writer, illustrator, editor and publisher. Of the 80s and 90s.

Is that how you define it? Because someone gets paid to do it, it's automatically on a higher level of quality?

It's how I can assume at least a level of editorial shaping to make sure it's more than someone's first draft.