Should There Be A Blu Ray Of The Animaited Series?

[Ssosmcin]

^ As far as I know, The Animated Series actually did use some rotoscoping. Some of the more lively movements of the NCC-1701 were done that way, for example.

Personally, I might add, I'm rather fond of Filmation's style, too.

Yes, that's right. I was working so hard trying to remember human examples, I forgot about the Enterprise shots, like the orbits and the "dive toward the scrreen" opening shot of The Cage redone. Those were more than the usual "slide it across the screen" method they normally used.

Filmation ruled.

 

[jefferiestubes8]

audio track changes in home video releases

(I was annoyed they "fixed" a few things in the DVD release - like why isn't the Delta Triangle red anymore? What's the point?)

Wow, I didn't know they actually changed things for the DVD release!

Changes have been made to TOS series on the audio side as well as ssosmcin and Indysolo say so for the 1999 DVD (and subsequent releases: 2004 DVDs, 2009 DVDs & Blu-rays.
all of the details are here:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3470570&postcount=9

and here
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3484132&postcount=14

ahd here
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3491118&postcount=17

 

[jefferiestubes8]

Blu-ray of entire TAS

"More Tribbles, More Troubles" has already been telecined in HD for the Blu-ray of season 2 TOS as a special feature.

There are 22 episodes. 1 is already done.
telecine, dirt & dust cleanup and record more commentary tracks and a HD documentary all about TAS including archival interviews with Gene Roddenberry talking about it and it would be pretty easy to put out on Blu-ray within 18 months.

 

[Hober Mallow]

IMO a BluRay of TAS would be a waste. "Reanimating" TAS would wrong. IMO the shitty animation is an integral part of it's charm (I was annoyed they "fixed" a few things in the DVD release - like why isn't the Delta Triangle red anymore? What's the point?)
Reanimating would also be effort better spent on making new Star Trek cartoons (as long as they do better than Stargate Infinity!)

Um... okay.

What does that have to do with releasing the series on blu-ray? They don't have to change anything to release the series on blu-ray. They've always released one episode on blu-ray -- "More Tribbles, More Troubles."

Blu-ray isn't about changing things. It's about giving us a high-definition transfer. So you don't want the animation to be changed. That's fine. Why then don't you want the series on blu-ray? I'm not quite getting the connection...

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

So am I right in assuming that they could put TAS, as it exists right now, straight to Blu-Ray without any reworking whatsoever? And have it be in native High Definition?

(I'm just curious as to why the TAS Tribbles episode was done in HD, but the DS9 one was not. If I'm right, this is because DS9 would need all new effects to be in native HD, because DS9's original FX were done on videotape. Right? And since TAS is film-only, it's already primed for Blu-Ray release, since the native resolution of 35mm film is way higher than HDTV.)

 

[jefferiestubes8]

So am I right in assuming that they could put TAS, as it exists right now, straight to Blu-Ray without any reworking whatsoever? And have it be in native High Definition?

Yes telecine to HD, dustbusted and mastered to 1080/24p HD in pillarbox (black bars on sides).
TAS was shot on 35mm, and mastered to 35mm including all edits, titles, and dissolves.

(I'm just curious as to why the TAS Tribbles episode was done in HD, but the DS9 one was not. If I'm right, this is because DS9 would need all new effects to be in native HD, because DS9's original FX were done on videotape.

info about DS9-Episode "Trials And Tribble-ations" in HD and efforts involved in remastering DS9 to HD are in two links here:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3269714&postcount=11

 

[milo bloom]

So am I right in assuming that they could put TAS, as it exists right now, straight to Blu-Ray without any reworking whatsoever? And have it be in native High Definition?

(I'm just curious as to why the TAS Tribbles episode was done in HD, but the DS9 one was not. If I'm right, this is because DS9 would need all new effects to be in native HD, because DS9's original FX were done on videotape. Right? And since TAS is film-only, it's already primed for Blu-Ray release, since the native resolution of 35mm film is way higher than HDTV.)

You're mostly there. The TAS film elements would no doubt require some cleanup and possibly color timing fixes (from natural film fading), but it would definitely be easier for it go straight to an HD format than any TNG, DS9 or VOY without the need for any "upconverting" or such.

All three of 80's-90s live action series were filmed on actual "film", but as you said the FX were done in standard definition.

All the original film negatives would have to be pulled out of storage, recut to the exact sequences as shown in the episode, and then the new FX done at the higher resolution. Now this process mainly refers to anything combining live action and an effect, like Q's flash-in/flash-out. Anything that's like a space shot could conceivably just be done completely in the computer. While TNG did achieve most of them via filming models that were then edited on video, the new space shots could do the same thing they did for TOS. Time how long the scene is, how long it takes the ship to move from one side of the screen to the other, that sort of thing, and just do it completely in the computer.

With 179 eps, it's still a massive undertaking, but as we've been re-watching TNG, I've kinda been noting where the FX are, and there's a lot that could be done with simple CG replacement like the space shots.


Just as info, you'd need about 6-8000 lines of resolution to approach what film is capable of. DVD has 480 and BluRay/hidef has 1080.

 

[jefferiestubes8]

film vs 6k/8k datacine/telecine for Blu-ray

Just as info, you'd need about 6-8000 lines of resolution to approach what film is capable of. DVD has 480 and BluRay/hidef has 1080.

The films that have been scanned at ultra high resolutions have been:

The Wizard of Oz to the Hi-Def world of Blu-ray Disc, the film has been entirely remastered, with each of the original Technicolor camera negatives scanned using 8K resolution. From this scan, a final ‘capture’ master was created in 4K, yielding twice the resolution seen in the master utilized for the film’s previous DVD release.

did an 8K Northlight scan with a 4K capture and 4K completion, then a down-resolution to HD

http://www.theblurayblog.com/2009/06/the-wizard-of-oz-confirmed-for-blu-ray-release-in-september/
2nd source

Now, just a few brief years later, 8K (7680x4320) is quickly becoming the gold standard by which all transfers are measured. To my knowledge, this is only the second catalog title that’s ever been scanned 8K (the other is "Baraka" from MPI). "The Dark Knight" was also scanned 8K, but I believe just the IMAX scenes where scanned at this resolution

.
The Wizard of Oz: 70th Anniversary Ultimate Collector's Edition (1939, Blu-ray) review

North by Northwest. Boasting a MILLION DOLLAR RESTORATION, and scanned in 8K resolution,

North by Northwest - 50th Anniversary Edition (Blu-Ray)
http://www.classicflix.com/north-northwest-50th-anniversary-edition-november-a-522.html

the 1954 'A Star Is Born' with Judy Garland, currently being remastered in 6K resolution,

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/David_Krauss/Warner_Brothers/Industry_Trends/Blu_About_The_Slow_Release_of_Classic_Titles_On_Blu-ray_Take_Heart!_%28UPDATED%29/2502

Gone with the Wind 70th Anniversary Ultimate Collector's Edition / Blu-ray

the new 8K re-do for this release is simply amazing. Depth of field reveals a level of detail in backgrounds and matte paintings as never before,

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Gone-with-the-Wind-Blu-ray/758/

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

info about DS9-Episode "Trials And Tribble-ations" in HD and efforts involved in remastering DS9 to HD are in two links here:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3269714&postcount=11

That post implied that the DS9 ep (Trials and Tribble-ations) was actually done in HD. It wasn't. As I said, they couldn't make it HD without redoing the effects, and they obviously didn't do that. I think it was just upconverted SD.

 

[Harvey]

The DS9 episode was just up-converted, yes.

As for TAS in high definition, it wouldn't interest me unless the special features received a major upgrade. The quality of animation isn't that great to begin with, so the difference between HD and SD isn't that big of a deal for me.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Um... okay.

What does that have to do with releasing the series on blu-ray? They don't have to change anything to release the series on blu-ray. They've always released one episode on blu-ray -- "More Tribbles, More Troubles."

Blu-ray isn't about changing things. It's about giving us a high-definition transfer. So you don't want the animation to be changed. That's fine. Why then don't you want the series on blu-ray? I'm not quite getting the connection...

You misunderstood me. Re-read my original post - I didn't like the idea of "re-animating" TAS, something someone else brought up previously. I also didn't like the changes already made to TAS for the DVD release (a few colours were changed). I just don't think it's worth HDing a cartoon.

Sorry if I wasn't clearer.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I also didn't like the changes already made to TAS for the DVD release (a few colours were changed).

Why didn't you like those changes? They were done just to fix mistakes, weren't they? (AFAIK, Hal Sutherland was colorblind, so that may be the source of some of them, like the pink Klingon uniforms)

I just don't think it's worth HDing a cartoon.

Perhaps. I have the opposite view. I advocate HDing everything possible. I mean, it can't look any worse, can it?

 

[milo bloom]

I also didn't like the changes already made to TAS for the DVD release (a few colours were changed).

Why didn't you like those changes? They were done just to fix mistakes, weren't they? (AFAIK, Hal Sutherland was colorblind, so that may be the source of some of them, like the pink Klingon uniforms)

I just don't think it's worth HDing a cartoon.

Perhaps. I have the opposite view. I advocate HDing everything possible. I mean, it can't look any worse, can it?

Actually, lower resolution formats can hide flaws in the original source material. There's examples of really old films being transferred to DVD or even laserdisc, and the higher resolution allowed things like strings holding up props to be seen, whereas before they would have blended in by virtue of the lower resolution.

I do think everything should be presented in the best format possible, but keep in mind that we're going to start seeing some of the old flaws that we weren't seeing before.

 

[jefferiestubes8]

HD and resolution

Actually, lower resolution formats can hide flaws in the original source material. There's examples of really old films being transferred to DVD or even laserdisc, and the higher resolution allowed things like strings holding up props to be seen, whereas before they would have blended in by virtue of the lower resolution.

Case in point Star Trek TOS seasons 1-3 in HD.

in the first scene of The Naked Time, Spock and
a crew member are investigating deaths in an icy control room.
On the ground lies what appears to be a dead woman.However,
through this HD-DVD transfer you can see it is a mannequin complete
with lines running through its wrists.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/showpost.php?p=3230780&postcount=378

ruin the storytelling?

If the audience is distracted by imperfections then you are taken out of the filmic medium that the director is showing you.

A line art cartoon is different. We all know it was drawn by hand. Filmmation animation in the 1970s was minimal. We all know it.
The backgrounds would benefit from HD in color subtleties. and resolution.

 

[milo bloom]

Re: HD and resolution

Actually, lower resolution formats can hide flaws in the original source material. There's examples of really old films being transferred to DVD or even laserdisc, and the higher resolution allowed things like strings holding up props to be seen, whereas before they would have blended in by virtue of the lower resolution.

Case in point Star Trek TOS seasons 1-3 in HD.

in the first scene of The Naked Time, Spock and
a crew member are investigating deaths in an icy control room.
On the ground lies what appears to be a dead woman.However,
through this HD-DVD transfer you can see it is a mannequin complete
with lines running through its wrists.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/showpost.php?p=3230780&postcount=378

ruin the storytelling?

If the audience is distracted by imperfections then you are taken out of the filmic medium that the director is showing you.

A line art cartoon is different. We all know it was drawn by hand. Filmmation animation in the 1970s was minimal. We all know it.
The backgrounds would benefit from HD in color subtleties. and resolution.

I'm well aware this sort of process needs to be judged on a case by case basis. I'm just making sure folks understand HD doesn't magically make things better. (For some reason I'm reminded of a somewhat opposite phenomenon: a few years back when Lucas foisted the old non-16x9 enhanced laserdisc transfers of the OT on us, there were people that truly and honestly believed that films made before DVD came around couldn't be anamorphically enhanced, so Lucas was in fact giving us the movies in the best format possible.)

Another animation example I thought of, remember the episode of Futurama where Amy gets an obscene tattoo that couldn't be made out due to the (then) low resolution of TV broadcasts? I wonder if that joke will still work when the series gets transferred in hi-def...

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

lower resolution formats can hide flaws in the original source material.

If HD resolutions show those flaws, then let them. Help inspire future film and TV show makers to not HAVE those flaws.

 

[milo bloom]

lower resolution formats can hide flaws in the original source material.

If HD resolutions show those flaws, then let them. Help inspire future film and TV show makers to not HAVE those flaws.

There's somebody either around here or another forum I frequent with a sig that says something to the effect of "It's not that you're still seeing the wires holding them up, it's that after so many years, you're still looking for them."

 

[F. King Daniel]

I also didn't like the changes already made to TAS for the DVD release (a few colours were changed).

Why didn't you like those changes? They were done just to fix mistakes, weren't they? (AFAIK, Hal Sutherland was colorblind, so that may be the source of some of them, like the pink Klingon uniforms)

I just don't think it's worth HDing a cartoon.

Perhaps. I have the opposite view. I advocate HDing everything possible. I mean, it can't look any worse, can it?

I get fixing mistakes (although with the ..erm.. 'dated' animation, imo the mikstakes add to the charm) but stuff like changing the Delta Triangle from it's misty red to solid black is utterly pointless and wasn't even done properly (once or twice triangle space is still red)!

 

[Captain Robert April]

^ Agreed.

 

[Kail]

I also didn't like the changes already made to TAS for the DVD release (a few colours were changed).

Why didn't you like those changes? They were done just to fix mistakes, weren't they? (AFAIK, Hal Sutherland was colorblind, so that may be the source of some of them, like the pink Klingon uniforms)

I just don't think it's worth HDing a cartoon.

Perhaps. I have the opposite view. I advocate HDing everything possible. I mean, it can't look any worse, can it?

I get fixing mistakes (although with the ..erm.. 'dated' animation, imo the mikstakes add to the charm) but stuff like changing the Delta Triangle from it's misty red to solid black is utterly pointless and wasn't even done properly (once or twice triangle space is still red)!

I never did get this move. What the hell was the point? It made no sense to change the Delta triangle space from red and cloudy to black.