Should Sisko have refused to let Kira use the Orb Time?

[M.A.C.O.]

^ But Nagus Zek was only punished by the Prophets after he took an Orb into the Wormhole and sat there waiting to make contact with them. The Prophets discovered Zek's intentions and changed his personality.

Using an orb outside the wormhole doesn't pose any such risk.

 

[Paul Weaver]

In trials, the orb sent the whole ship back in time. And across space.

In wrongs it didn't send the station back in time. I wonder how it chose.

Out of all the time travel escapades that Sisko gets up to (including Wrongs, which was the worst), why did DTI choose Trials, where there was very little change if any in the timeline. In Past Tense the changes may have been unavoidable, but they were lasting minor changes. Visionary was a major change, as was Children of Time.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

^ But Nagus Zek was only punished by the Prophets after he took an Orb into the Wormhole and sat there waiting to make contact with them. The Prophets discovered Zek's intentions and changed his personality.

Using an orb outside the wormhole doesn't pose any such risk.

We only know that the Cardassians were not able to use them. It is possible they were simply denied it. And in TAT, the Prophets obviously had one of their agents on hand to deal with the problem.

In trials, the orb sent the whole ship back in time. And across space.

In wrongs it didn't send the station back in time. I wonder how it chose.

Out of all the time travel escapades that Sisko gets up to (including Wrongs, which was the worst), why did DTI choose Trials, where there was very little change if any in the timeline. In Past Tense the changes may have been unavoidable, but they were lasting minor changes. Visionary was a major change, as was Children of Time.

Isn't that a matter of how it was used? Perhaps Darvin did something in order to increase the Orb's scope.

 

[kirkfan]

^ The Orb of Time did appear in that episode, but it didn't wipe out the Federation.

Surely the repercussions of the death of Kirk would have been enormous. When Daniels abducted Archer it made the Earth's population go extinct. Are you saying that Kirk is less important than Archer?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ I'm not 'saying' a damn thing, I'm just pointing out what actually happened in the episode. The Federation was not wiped out, Kirk's life continued unabated, and the only changes to history were extremely minor (some of the DS9 crew's presence on the station, like during the bar fight).

 

[Paul Weaver]

^ The Orb of Time did appear in that episode, but it didn't wipe out the Federation.

Surely the repercussions of the death of Kirk would have been enormous. When Daniels abducted Archer it made the Earth's population go extinct. Are you saying that Kirk is less important than Archer?

It's fairly certain that Earth would have been wiped out by the Whale Probe, possibly by Vger earlier. Khan may not have found out about Genesis, but that means he may not have been stopped early on with just the Reliant, that may have led to him causing problems. Without the use of Genesis in Mutara the Klingons may not have increased praxis output which led to a peace treaty.

One big unknown with Kirk being killed in Tribbles would be he and Spock would be unavailable to go back to 1968 to "assist" Gary Seven, which may well have led to nuclear war 80 years too early.

Even if all that was worked around, without Kirk going into the Nexus in Generations, there's a good chance Picard wouldn't have found someone to help him defeat Soran, therefore Picard would have died in Generations, and be unable to fight the Borg in First Contact, thus leading to assimilation back at First Contact time, leading to the plot of Engines of Destiny.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

^ The Orb of Time did appear in that episode, but it didn't wipe out the Federation.

Surely the repercussions of the death of Kirk would have been enormous. When Daniels abducted Archer it made the Earth's population go extinct. Are you saying that Kirk is less important than Archer?

It's fairly certain that Earth would have been wiped out by the Whale Probe, possibly by Vger earlier. Khan may not have found out about Genesis, but that means he may not have been stopped early on with just the Reliant, that may have led to him causing problems. Without the use of Genesis in Mutara the Klingons may not have increased praxis output which led to a peace treaty.

One big unknown with Kirk being killed in Tribbles would be he and Spock would be unavailable to go back to 1968 to "assist" Gary Seven, which may well have led to nuclear war 80 years too early.

Even if all that was worked around, without Kirk going into the Nexus in Generations, there's a good chance Picard wouldn't have found someone to help him defeat Soran, therefore Picard would have died in Generations, and be unable to fight the Borg in First Contact, thus leading to assimilation back at First Contact time, leading to the plot of Engines of Destiny.

Worf would have never married Dax, saving Terry Farrell's acting career.

 

[kirkfan]

^ The Orb of Time did appear in that episode, but it didn't wipe out the Federation.

Surely the repercussions of the death of Kirk would have been enormous. When Daniels abducted Archer it made the Earth's population go extinct. Are you saying that Kirk is less important than Archer?

It's fairly certain that Earth would have been wiped out by the Whale Probe, possibly by Vger earlier. Khan may not have found out about Genesis, but that means he may not have been stopped early on with just the Reliant, that may have led to him causing problems. Without the use of Genesis in Mutara the Klingons may not have increased praxis output which led to a peace treaty.

One big unknown with Kirk being killed in Tribbles would be he and Spock would be unavailable to go back to 1968 to "assist" Gary Seven, which may well have led to nuclear war 80 years too early.

Even if all that was worked around, without Kirk going into the Nexus in Generations, there's a good chance Picard wouldn't have found someone to help him defeat Soran, therefore Picard would have died in Generations, and be unable to fight the Borg in First Contact, thus leading to assimilation back at First Contact time, leading to the plot of Engines of Destiny.

Exactly! And EACH TIME, the Earth survived by the skin of its teeth. If Kirk hadn't said the right words to V'ger... If Spock hadn't identified the whale song... etc...

Killing Kirk would have ended life on Earth! Just as removing Archer in the middle of his conflict with the Suliban did.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Sure, killing Kirk *would* have had vast repercussions, but the fact remains, Kirk *wasn't* killed.

To say that the Orb wiped out the Earth or the universe is just wrong...it *could* have, but DIDN'T.

 

[kirkfan]

^ Sure, killing Kirk *would* have had vast repercussions, but the fact remains, Kirk *wasn't* killed.

To say that the Orb wiped out the Earth or the universe is just wrong...it *could* have, but DIDN'T.

It's very likely that without the DS9 crew intervention, Kirk would have been dead.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Perhaps. But as I keep saying, IT DIDN'T ACTUALLY HAPPEN.

The accusation was that the use of the Orb wiped out the universe in this episode. Not "could have", not "likely to", but actually DID. To wit:

Not to mention, that the last time they used it, they first wiped out the federation from reality.

I don't recall that ever happening.

"Trials and Tribble-ations"

This accusation is, of course, false.

 

[kirkfan]

^ Perhaps. But as I keep saying, IT DIDN'T ACTUALLY HAPPEN.

The accusation was that the use of the Orb wiped out the universe in this episode. Not "could have", not "likely to", but actually DID. To wit:

I don't recall that ever happening.

"Trials and Tribble-ations"

This accusation is, of course, false.

Wrong, In past tense when it was unsure whether Sisko would successfully replace the guy that died, the federation DISAPPEARED, it disappeared on a mere probability. If DS9's stories are consistent which each other then when there was a possibility that Kirk could be killed the consequences of his death should have modified the present, DS9's present that is. QED.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Wrong, In things past when it was unsure whether Sisko would successfully replace the guy that died, the federation DISAPPEARED, it disappeared on a mere probability. If DS9's stories are consistent which each other

Stop right there. The stories are not consistent with each other.

then when there was a possibility that Kirk could be killed the consequences of his death should have modified the present, DS9's present that is.

Should have? Maybe. But DIDN'T.

 

[kirkfan]

Wrong, In things past when it was unsure whether Sisko would successfully replace the guy that died, the federation DISAPPEARED, it disappeared on a mere probability. If DS9's stories are consistent which each other

Stop right there. The stories are not consistent with each other.

then when there was a possibility that Kirk could be killed the consequences of his death should have modified the present, DS9's present that is.

Should have? Maybe. But DIDN'T.

We don't know that. What we do know is if that story is consistent with Past tense then for a while, the federation DID disappear as the result of Kirk's future being uncertain.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

This is way too Comic Book Guy.

 

[kirkfan]

This is way too Comic Book Guy.

I beg your pardon?

 

[Tosk]

Isn't just easier to admit you mixed up two episodes than to try and invent some elaborate story about what you "really" meant?

No one is disputing your otherwise impeccable Trek trivia knowledge.

Can we move on now?

 

[Paul Weaver]

Wrong, In things past when it was unsure whether Sisko would successfully replace the guy that died, the federation DISAPPEARED, it disappeared on a mere probability. If DS9's stories are consistent which each other

Stop right there. The stories are not consistent with each other.

then when there was a possibility that Kirk could be killed the consequences of his death should have modified the present, DS9's present that is.

Should have? Maybe. But DIDN'T.

We don't know that. What we do know is if that story is consistent with Past tense then for a while, the federation DID disappear as the result of Kirk's future being uncertain.

The federation disappeared because Gabriel Bell died in 2024 caused by interaction between the transporter beam and the cloak on the defiant. It was fixed later (and is rather paradoxy, as sisko and Bashir couldn't go back in time had the federation never existed, meaning bell wouldn't be killed, meaning the federation would exist, etc)

If the orb of time never existed it still would have happened.

Kirk never died in Trials, in any timeline. There was originally the one where "I don't know sir" was a redshirt, then there was one where it was O'Brien, but both universes were similar enough to be the same - Kirk neve entered formal reprimands on anyone's record for that fight.

kirk is very important to history, in many ways, but not because of the orb of time. Kirks actions in Trials were identical to his actions in a non-orb-of-time universe, and while he could have been killed in trials, he could have been killed in any number of times.

Sisko and crew didn't choose to use the orb of time to go back and endanger Kirk, they were pulled back against their will and saved the day.

 

[kirkfan]

Isn't just easier to admit you mixed up two episodes than to try and invent some elaborate story about what you "really" meant?

No one is disputing your otherwise impeccable Trek trivia knowledge.

Can we move on now?

Who's forcing you to post in this thread?

 

[kirkfan]

Stop right there. The stories are not consistent with each other.



Should have? Maybe. But DIDN'T.

We don't know that. What we do know is if that story is consistent with Past tense then for a while, the federation DID disappear as the result of Kirk's future being uncertain.

The federation disappeared because Gabriel Bell died in 2024 caused by interaction between the transporter beam and the cloak on the defiant. It was fixed later (and is rather paradoxy, as sisko and Bashir couldn't go back in time had the federation never existed, meaning bell wouldn't be killed, meaning the federation would exist, etc)

If the orb of time never existed it still would have happened.

Kirk never died in Trials, in any timeline. There was originally the one where "I don't know sir" was a redshirt, then there was one where it was O'Brien, but both universes were similar enough to be the same - Kirk neve entered formal reprimands on anyone's record for that fight.

kirk is very important to history, in many ways, but not because of the orb of time. Kirks actions in Trials were identical to his actions in a non-orb-of-time universe, and while he could have been killed in trials, he could have been killed in any number of times.

Sisko and crew didn't choose to use the orb of time to go back and endanger Kirk, they were pulled back against their will and saved the day.

You could also say that since Sisko was planning and be successful in replacing the guy then there was never any cause for the federation to disappear. You don't even realize that you're using crooked logic here.