• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Ships of the Line 2019

According to the Eaglemoss poster seen in Germany, it’s called Sech class.
So Eaglemoss has given the fake D-7 a new name? That is interesting.
Also, are we sure this is a genuine SOTL calendar? Because I don’t see any image of the Enterprise in Earth’s clouds with a 1969 US aircraft. :rommie:
Well, there is the one with the rocket from Assignment Earth, so we're still doing 1960s stuff in the sky.
 
Although, given how spotty communication seems to be behind the scenes on this show, I'm inclined to believe this was just someone dropping the ball.
 
Although, given how spotty communication seems to be behind the scenes on this show, I'm inclined to believe this was just someone dropping the ball.

Yeah, it does sometimes seem that the scripts say one thing and the FX team does another -- like sticking an Earthlike planet behind a station that's 100 AU from the Sun. But there's what really happened behind the scenes, and there's how we rationalize it after the fact.
 
The window just didn't seem practical too me. A view screen seems more functional and practical to me because you could do more with it. Sure you can project images on a window, but then you'd have to go to the trouble of making it opaque or you'd have double images (and I thought in Star Trek(2009) it just didn't look good, they did improve it in STID thankfully).

But why would you make something that had to do all that when you could just, you know, install a viewscreen, which would do all that without all the additions. You could put it in a huge view screen (a la Enterprise D) if big was your thing.

Also, if I'm not mistaken I believe the viewscreens of the future were holographic (3-d) so they weren't static 2-d displays.

Why windows? Because the Millennium Falcon had a window, along with most other Star Wars ships. JJ's sense of "space cool" was defined by Star Wars, so that's what he wanted for Star Trek. It's why "going to warp" now looks so much like "jumping to lightspeed". And why we're now stuck with so much of that esthetic now, losing bits of Star Trek's unique design philosophy. Not all of it, of course, just bits and pieces that obtrusively bring to mind a different franchise and jar you out of the story being told for an instant.

/rant. Sorry.
 
Why windows? Because the Millennium Falcon had a window, along with most other Star Wars ships. JJ's sense of "space cool" was defined by Star Wars, so that's what he wanted for Star Trek. It's why "going to warp" now looks so much like "jumping to lightspeed". And why we're now stuck with so much of that esthetic now, losing bits of Star Trek's unique design philosophy. Not all of it, of course, just bits and pieces that obtrusively bring to mind a different franchise and jar you out of the story being told for an instant.

/rant. Sorry.

I agree. I have nothing against Star Wars. I've enjoyed the movies in general, but that's as far as it goes for me. And all that stuff is great and works for Star Wars. But that's where it belongs. That was my one complaint about Star Trek (2009), that the production design and effects were unlike anything Star Trek has ever had before, it was very Star Warsy. I loved the storyline, the characters and so forth. But the look of it was very much off to me (and the lens flares were giving me a sour...well, um head in my case, I actually left the movie with a pretty nasty headache).

STID was better. Yes there were still some of that Star Wars feel about some of it. But they seemed to fix some things. The scenes on Earth looked more Star Trekky. I thought the scenes at Starfleet looked more like what we saw say in Voyager (Pathfinder in particular) and less like Coruscant (though the final Khan chase scene was a lot like Attack of the Clones). When they projected things on the "window" it looked more solid and opaque. And the cinematography was a bit more stable, and there were less lens flares. Beyond was even better still.
 
Why windows? Because the Millennium Falcon had a window, along with most other Star Wars ships. JJ's sense of "space cool" was defined by Star Wars, so that's what he wanted for Star Trek.

There have been plenty of SF spaceships with windows long before Star Wars, and frequently after it. Star Wars wasn't a pioneer in anything except visual effects technology; conceptually and stylistically, it was one big homage to earlier works such as Flash Gordon movie serials and comic strips from the '30s. The Falcon's cockpit windows owe a lot to the windows of WWII bombers and the like, and I've seen various vintage sci-fi rocketships drawing on the same influence.

Look at old sci-fi movie serials, or B movies from the '50s and '60s about rocketships, and the spacecraft quite often have cockpit windows, or at least small portholes. After all, it stands to reason that the idea of wall-mounted video screens was a later development. Star Trek was somewhat innovative in not having a window.


It's why "going to warp" now looks so much like "jumping to lightspeed". And why we're now stuck with so much of that esthetic now, losing bits of Star Trek's unique design philosophy.

No, we're not "stuck" with it. The production design of one movie isn't binding on a later movie with a different director and art team. The warp effect in Beyond was totally different from, and amazingly better than, the version in the two Abrams-directed movies.
 
There have been plenty of SF spaceships with windows long before Star Wars, and frequently after it. Star Wars wasn't a pioneer in anything except visual effects technology; conceptually and stylistically, it was one big homage to earlier works such as Flash Gordon movie serials and comic strips from the '30s. The Falcon's cockpit windows owe a lot to the windows of WWII bombers and the like, and I've seen various vintage sci-fi rocketships drawing on the same influence.

Look at old sci-fi movie serials, or B movies from the '50s and '60s about rocketships, and the spacecraft quite often have cockpit windows, or at least small portholes. After all, it stands to reason that the idea of wall-mounted video screens was a later development. Star Trek was somewhat innovative in not having a window.




No, we're not "stuck" with it. The production design of one movie isn't binding on a later movie with a different director and art team. The warp effect in Beyond was totally different from, and amazingly better than, the version in the two Abrams-directed movies.

I think what Dr. Corby probably means is that Abrams has made it pretty clear he's a Star Wars fan (more than Star Trek) and that has influenced how he made his films (though I thought STID had a bit less of that). I definitely felt a Star Wars influence in his first Star Trek film (though Abrams of course has some of his own techniques--like excessive lens flares).

No, we're not "stuck" with it. The production design of one movie isn't binding on a later movie with a different director and art team. The warp effect in Beyond was totally different from, and amazingly better than, the version in the two Abrams-directed movies.

I agree about Beyond. That had the least Star Warsy feel of the three. The warp effect was better (though it still had that Star Wars like tunnel feel from within the ship looking out). Of course I'm partial to the TNG effect, but the Beyond effect from outside was pretty unique.
 
I think what Dr. Corby probably means is that Abrams has made it pretty clear he's a Star Wars fan (more than Star Trek) and that has influenced how he made his films (though I thought STID had a bit less of that). I definitely felt a Star Wars influence in his first Star Trek film (though Abrams of course has some of his own techniques--like excessive lens flares).

Yes, that much is well-known, but my point is that I don't think that explains the bridge windows, because Star Wars has no monopoly on spaceship windows and never has. If anything, it's more the norm than the exception. Most real vehicles have windows in the front, so it's natural to expect spaceships to have them too.

Besides, Ryan Church designed the ship. Abrams didn't do it himself, although he did have approval. So we don't know that the impetus for the windows came from him. It's just as possible that Church or the set designer thought it up and Abrams just ran with it.

And lens flares are not a trademark Abrams technique; they're something he adopted specifically for ST as a visual pun on a "bright future."
 
Blanking out the screen entirely in FC means that most of the time, everyone in the crew is oriented towards a plain wall. It's vaguely demoralizing, like being put in the corner.
I get that they were going for a "Oooh, high tech!" reaction, but yeah, when not showing what's outside that viewer should be showing a bunch of status readouts (Probably not unlike all the holographic displays surrounding the Kelvin/Disco windows)
 
Yes, that much is well-known, but my point is that I don't think that explains the bridge windows, because Star Wars has no monopoly on spaceship windows and never has. If anything, it's more the norm than the exception. Most real vehicles have windows in the front, so it's natural to expect spaceships to have them too.

Besides, Ryan Church designed the ship. Abrams didn't do it himself, although he did have approval. So we don't know that the impetus for the windows came from him. It's just as possible that Church or the set designer thought it up and Abrams just ran with it.

And lens flares are not a trademark Abrams technique; they're something he adopted specifically for ST as a visual pun on a "bright future."

I agree. I just think Abrams thing with Star Wars influenced how he wanted his Star Trek film to look, probably more than anything else. But yeah, Star Trek was actually ahead of it's time using a viewscreen, which makes a lot more sense to me. Star Trek production designers in the past tried to keep things in a real world perspective. They didn't put something somewhere just because they thought it would look cool. They wanted things to have a purpose and make some sort of sense, at least as much as is possible. Now I'm not saying it always showed up in the result. I remember reading somewhere Nicholas Meyer wanted a torpedo room and someone, one of the production designers I believe, had complained that if torpedoes took that long to load they wouldn't be much use, but Meyer won. And of course who can forget the 178 decks (or whatever it was) on the Enterprise-A in TFF--Herman Zimmerman tried to tell Shatner the Enterprise-A had only, what 24 decks is it. He was ignored.

But I think some of that was lost a bit in Star Trek (2009). I had seen that Church had picked John Eave's brain about a few things, since he was one of the only Berman era staffers to be retained, and I think that probably helped keep the film from going off the rails. But it had a lot of that sense of Star Wars in it that I didn't care for too much.

Abrams didn't invent lens flares, but boy did he revel in them in 2009. That and the shaky camera thing. Ugh. For certain scenes I get it. But why would you have a shaky camera in space (I don't even remember that happening in Star Wars). I don't get what the point of that was. And there were a lot of scenes in space that looked like they would have been really cool but they were ruined by the unsteady camera and being almost completely washed out by lens flares. I thought, hmm, that probably looked like a great scene, too bad I couldn't make most of it out. In STID it was much, much better. The use of shaky camera and lens flares was much more judicious and enhanced the scenes they were used in as a result, instead of overwhelming them or distracting them.
 
I remember reading somewhere Nicholas Meyer wanted a torpedo room and someone, one of the production designers I believe, had complained that if torpedoes took that long to load they wouldn't be much use, but Meyer won.

Yeah. I always thought Meyer was an odd fit for Trek, because he's so aggressively anti-futurist. He wanted to turn ST into 18th-century Royal Navy ships firing cannons at each other.

I've always preferred to assume that the torpedo room was just some sort of retrofit for the Enterprise as a cadet ship -- teaching the crew how to load torpedoes manually in case they ever had to in an emergency, even though it was usually automatic.


But I think some of that was lost a bit in Star Trek (2009). I had seen that Church had picked John Eave's brain about a few things, since he was one of the only Berman era staffers to be retained

The one and only, as far as I know.


Abrams didn't invent lens flares, but boy did he revel in them in 2009.

Yes, of course, but my point is that they aren't a trademark of all of Abrams's directorial work, as many people incorrectly assume they are. They're something he adopted specifically for Trek, not Mission: Impossible or Star Wars or his earlier TV work.

But why would you have a shaky camera in space (I don't even remember that happening in Star Wars). I don't get what the point of that was.

If you're talking about in exterior space shots, that's a technique that was pioneered by Firefly and Battlestar Galactica as a way of giving space shots a cinema verite feel, so that they didn't look so artificial and composited. Logically, if a hypothetical camera operator were trying to track the movements of spacecraft, weapons, and the like, they would be shooting from a considerable distance and zooming in heavily, so any slight camera motion to keep the subject in the shot would be pretty jerky. The goal is to evoke the feel of news footage from combat zones, disasters, and live events. We know what that looks like, we've all seen important, scary real events portrayed that way on the news, so evoking it in film can give FX scenes a greater immediacy and power. (The lack of sound in Firefly's space scenes certainly made them feel more real to me, not just because I know there's no sound in space, but because so much of that real news footage is silent or has muted/delayed sound due to the camera operator's distance from the event. We've gotten used to fictional FX shots that are perfectly polished and composed and sound-mixed, and so they've come to feel produced and artificial. Something with the limits and imperfections of live news footage can feel more real and more potent.)


And there were a lot of scenes in space that looked like they would have been really cool but they were ruined by the unsteady camera and being almost completely washed out by lens flares. I thought, hmm, that probably looked like a great scene, too bad I couldn't make most of it out. In STID it was much, much better. The use of shaky camera and lens flares was much more judicious and enhanced the scenes they were used in as a result, instead of overwhelming them or distracting them.

Hmm, I never really noticed that. Perhaps because all the violence and noise and conflict didn't interest me -- I was engaged by the emotion of what the characters were going through in the battle scenes. That's what impressed me most about Abrams's direction in ST'09 -- he never forgot that the characters and emotions are more important than the action and spectacle. Many other directors would've turned those scenes into empty FX orgies, but Abrams remained powerfully focused on the personal drama and love and loss of the characters, with all the big frenzied expensive CGI action just being there to support the drama rather than overwhelming or substituting for it.
 
If you're talking about in exterior space shots, that's a technique that was pioneered by Firefly and Battlestar Galactica as a way of giving space shots a cinema verite feel, so that they didn't look so artificial and composited.

I just never cared for that feel in films. Now that's just my own opinion, these days it seems people like active cinematography. I'm a bit more old school. I like steady camera movements in general and clean shots (not to say there aren't times it's more appropriate to have an active shot--say a shot of someone chasing someone in a busy city street, steady shot in that case would be inappropriate). I go to a movie because I want to escape reality to an extent. I don't want it to feel like it should be on CNN or Fox News (trying to be impartial ;) ). I want it to feel like it's a movie. But again, that's just my own personal opinion.

Hmm, I never really noticed that. Perhaps because all the violence and noise and conflict didn't interest me -- I was engaged by the emotion of what the characters were going through in the battle scenes. That's what impressed me most about Abrams's direction in ST'09 -- he never forgot that the characters and emotions are more important than the action and spectacle. Many other directors would've turned those scenes into empty FX orgies, but Abrams remained powerfully focused on the personal drama and love and loss of the characters, with all the big frenzied expensive CGI action just being there to support the drama rather than overwhelming or substituting for it.

Yeah, and those are some of the things that I thought made Star Trek (2009) a good movie overall. The characters were well done mostly and I thought the story was ingenious. But some of the production techniques bothered me, partly because it's not a technique I care for. I usually don't go to movies that feature that sort of thing (partly because movies that employ those techniques are typically shallow, CGI action films ;) ). The story was enough for me to like the movie and enjoy it along with the other 12 films.

And it wasn't just the action and violence scenes. I remember the very first scene of the Kelvin just flying through space looked very cool until....lens flares everywhere. And even some interior scenes, some with just dialogue had lens flares. Some of it didn't make sense. I can understand it when you're in space toward a star. But why would there be lens flares indoors? It actually started driving me crazy. At the time I was thinking, gee, they really should have cleaned some of that up--until I discovered it was done ON PURPOSE. I was like, why would somebody do that.

It got to the point for a while every time I saw a lens flare my eye would spasm. I watched Nemesis and saw a few lens flares there and I thought, AAAGGHHH!, JJ went in and put lens flares in the older movies too (ok, just kidding there, it just wasn't something I paid much attention to until 2009). And I give JJ a lot of credit for STID in the sense that he was much more judicious in that film. He realized almost every scene didn't require that feel. That a steady camera and clean shots have their place as well. And I didn't leave STID with a massive headache.
 
I just never cared for that feel in films. Now that's just my own opinion, these days it seems people like active cinematography. I'm a bit more old school. I like steady camera movements in general and clean shots (not to say there aren't times it's more appropriate to have an active shot--say a shot of someone chasing someone in a busy city street, steady shot in that case would be inappropriate). I go to a movie because I want to escape reality to an extent. I don't want it to feel like it should be on CNN or Fox News (trying to be impartial ;) ). I want it to feel like it's a movie. But again, that's just my own personal opinion.

I used to really hate shakycam. I know it was meant to look like documentary footage, but it looked so selfconscious to me, especially when it was being done in static conversation scenes where any competent camera operator would have zero difficulty holding the darn thing still. But I guess I've gotten used to it over time. And it makes sense in the context of space shots, as I said, because any putative camera operator would be trying to track moving objects from a sizeable distance.

And I can't blame filmmakers for trying new things with how space scenes are depicted. There have been certain standardized conventions for decades due to the limitations of FX techology, and now that those limitations are gone, it's natural and healthy that people are experimenting with alternative approaches, even if not every experiment is successful. The whole point of the Kelvin reboot was to find a fresh new way of telling Star Trek stories, to reinvent it for new audiences and a new era, not just continue what had been done in the past. I respect that ambition, since TOS itself was groundbreaking and boundary-pushing for its time. It may mean that not everything they do will satisfy an old-guard fan like me, but I know I'm not the only one whose opinion matters. I don't want Star Trek to be made just for me, I want it to be forward-looking and innovative, to evolve and grow and continue bringing in new generations of fans, because that's what will keep its legacy alive in the future.
 
I used to really hate shakycam. I know it was meant to look like documentary footage, but it looked so selfconscious to me, especially when it was being done in static conversation scenes where any competent camera operator would have zero difficulty holding the darn thing still. But I guess I've gotten used to it over time. And it makes sense in the context of space shots, as I said, because any putative camera operator would be trying to track moving objects from a sizeable distance.

And I can't blame filmmakers for trying new things with how space scenes are depicted. There have been certain standardized conventions for decades due to the limitations of FX techology, and now that those limitations are gone, it's natural and healthy that people are experimenting with alternative approaches, even if not every experiment is successful. The whole point of the Kelvin reboot was to find a fresh new way of telling Star Trek stories, to reinvent it for new audiences and a new era, not just continue what had been done in the past. I respect that ambition, since TOS itself was groundbreaking and boundary-pushing for its time. It may mean that not everything they do will satisfy an old-guard fan like me, but I know I'm not the only one whose opinion matters. I don't want Star Trek to be made just for me, I want it to be forward-looking and innovative, to evolve and grow and continue bringing in new generations of fans, because that's what will keep its legacy alive in the future.

That's all true to. I guess to me it just appears sloppy. I know in the past they tried to clean up things like lens flares, not intentionally put them back in (there are other things as well, I'm just using flares as an example).

I'd rather see a balance. I get some of it, like updating the ships and sets and so forth. I'd still like it to have the essence of what we've seen before.

An in a way the problem was sort of solved with STID, IMO. I thought Abrams struck a much better balance there. It still had the Abrams touch, but there was a bit more Star Trek injected into it. At least to me. I know a feel or the essence is hard to quantify, and I imagine it's different for different people. But when I went to see STID it felt more like a Star Trek production, and in a good way. Bob Orci used to comment on the trekmovie.com site and he had noted that they had taken some constructive criticism to heart. Not everything of course, and maybe not to everyone's liking (you'll never make everyone happy). But I appreciated as a fan that they were receptive to some of that and it showed I thought in STID and in ways that I don't think had a negative impact on the story of how they wanted to present it (in fact, one frequent criticism about the rapid fire promotions was a pretty significant plot point).
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top