Shattered...

[Kobayshi Maru]

Seska says that she realized that Chakotay was from the future because he mumbled "Five years ago" when he came to (what a stupid thing to mumble when you're in the presence of such a clever and implacable enemy btw!) but given that she left Chakotay and the entire ship's crew on a barren planet with no technology at all ("let's see how you manage without it" said... Seska's lover whatever his name was) she could at least have realized that something went terribly wrong in her plan REGARDLESS of what Chakotay might have said.


Food for thought...

 

[hux]

Seska says that she realized that Chakotay was from the future because he mumbled "Five years ago" when he came to (what a stupid thing to mumble when you're in the presence of such a clever and implacable enemy btw!)

But surely Chakatay had no choice. I mean everyone knows you can't think things without also saying them out loud. Many a time i've got myself into trouble for saying to my manager..."you're a fucking fat cow"....because it's what i was thinking. Maybe in some parallel universe people can think things without also saying them....but not sadly, in this one

but given that she left Chakotay and the entire ship's crew on a barren planet with no technology at all ("let's see how you manage without it" said... Seska's lover whatever his name was) she could at least have realized that something went terribly wrong in her plan REGARDLESS of what Chakotay might have said.

I was under the impression that the events of Shattered were wiped clean by the end of the episode (an idea they should have used more often in Voyager) so in the end, Seska never actually encountered Chakotay from 5 years in the future

 

[Guy Gardener]

Realising that "they" lost and that the crew of Voyager won.

Ditto for full Borg Seven of Nine still loyal to the Collective.

They only way that that was possible was is if Borg Betrayal was not inevitable but just something the Borg might have resorted to if the Humans (and friends) had been especially assholey near the end of their adventure.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Seska says that she realized that Chakotay was from the future because he mumbled "Five years ago" when he came to (what a stupid thing to mumble when you're in the presence of such a clever and implacable enemy btw!)

But surely Chakatay had no choice. I mean everyone knows you can't think things without also saying them out loud. Many a time i've got myself into trouble for saying to my manager..."you're a fucking fat cow"....because it's what i was thinking. Maybe in some parallel universe people can think things without also saying them....but not sadly, in this one

but given that she left Chakotay and the entire ship's crew on a barren planet with no technology at all ("let's see how you manage without it" said... Seska's lover whatever his name was) she could at least have realized that something went terribly wrong in her plan REGARDLESS of what Chakotay might have said.

I was under the impression that the events of Shattered were wiped clean by the end of the episode (an idea they should have used more often in Voyager) so in the end, Seska never actually encountered Chakotay from 5 years in the future

No, I mean the instant she saw Chakotay she must have realized that something was very wrong given that he was supposed to be struggling on a barren planet with no technology. I mean, how did he manage to get back on the ship unless he escaped from that planet with outside help. That should have worried her exactly one sec after she saw him, even before he was hit in the face and lost consciousness.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Realising that "they" lost and that the crew of Voyager won.

Ditto for full Borg Seven of Nine still loyal to the Collective.

They only way that that was possible was is if Borg Betrayal was not inevitable but just something the Borg might have resorted to if the Humans (and friends) had been especially assholey near the end of their adventure.

All true.

 

[hux]

No, I mean the instant she saw Chakotay she must have realized that something was very wrong given that he was supposed to be struggling on a barren planet with no technology. I mean, how did he manage to get back on the ship unless he escaped from that planet with outside help. That should have worried her exactly one sec after she saw him, even before he was hit in the face and lost consciousness.

I'm not sure how long Seska et al had been in control having dumped the Voyager crew but in space anything can happen so she might just have thought he'd found a way back (via wormhole, alien ship, secretly got back on board before they left etc)

Didn't the Borg suggest amending the plan to benefit their time line at one point

 

[Guy Gardener]

The math didn't hold.

Seriously though.

They all agreed to commit suicide, or allow themselves to be murdered so that 2376(?) Chakotay could have their crew back.

Chakotay murdered season one Janeway!

That must have cleared him of any built up festering resentment towards the lady when he got back to his own ship.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

No, I mean the instant she saw Chakotay she must have realized that something was very wrong given that he was supposed to be struggling on a barren planet with no technology. I mean, how did he manage to get back on the ship unless he escaped from that planet with outside help. That should have worried her exactly one sec after she saw him, even before he was hit in the face and lost consciousness.

I'm not sure how long Seska et al had been in control having dumped the Voyager crew but in space anything can happen so she might just have thought he'd found a way back (via wormhole, alien ship, secretly got back on board before they left etc)

Didn't the Borg suggest amending the plan to benefit their time line at one point

No, she said that if she assimilated janeway and Chakotay into a small borg collective then the work could go faster. it was just for practical purposes.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

The math didn't hold.

Seriously though.

They all agreed to commit suicide, or allow themselves to be murdered so that 2376(?) Chakotay could have their crew back.

Chakotay murdered season one Janeway!

That must have cleared him of any built up festering resentment towards the lady when he got back to his own ship.

The funny thing is that when Seska made janeway a hostage Chakotay should have realized that it didn't matter because all of it would be erased and yet he let seska almost derail their plan. That wasn't very smart of him, was it?

 

[Melakon]

Seska was the one who wanted to reset things to her timeline.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Seska was the one who wanted to reset things to her timeline.

Indeed, Seven wanted to be helpful, in her own way.

 

[Richard Baker]

My favorite part of this episode was Janeway's increasing reaction to seeing how difficult her future will be. Chakotay's speech at the end was wonderful.

 

[spacemark]

The math didn't hold.
Chakotay murdered season one Janeway!

No, remember at the very end, Janeway mentioned to Chakotay that she knew where he had hidden his cider, and that she had not revealed the secret to Neelix? She learned this as Season 1 Janeway during the time shattering from 17-year older Icheb. In other words, the other timelines were not destroyed.

In truth it's a bit confusing...

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

The math didn't hold.
Chakotay murdered season one Janeway!

No, remember at the very end, Janeway mentioned to Chakotay that she knew where he had hidden his cider, and that she had not revealed the secret to Neelix? She learned this as Season 1 Janeway during the time shattering from 17-year older Icheb. In other words, the other timelines were not destroyed.

In truth it's a bit confusing...

The cider story doesn't hold water. If Chakotay died immediately after telling Icheb about the cider then keeping it a secret was pointless, if he didn't die at that time then why would Icheb remember this precise conversation seventeen years later as if it was the last one they had? That's the kind of crap that only looks good when you don't think about it.

 

[Lt. Marseille]

The cider story doesn't hold water. If Chakotay died immediately after telling Icheb about the cider then keeping it a secret was pointless, if he didn't die at that time then why would Icheb remember this precise conversation seventeen years later as if it was the last one they had? That's the kind of crap that only looks good when you don't think about it.

Perhaps what Icheb means is that he kept Chakotay's secret and hasn't told anyone else? In other words he's been drinking all the cider in the meantime.

From Icheb and Naomi's POV Chakotay certainly died immediately because the ship's been stuck in the crazy time trap ever since. All of the rest of the ship outside their 'zone' was destroyed from their perspective.

btw, didn't Ceska immediately start interrogating Chakotay about how many others had managed to get on board with him so she did think something had gone wrong with her plan and was asking the right questions.

 

[Lance]

"Shattered" isn't a *real* time travel story. It's a reality-warper. The only person experiencing any of that shit in terms of a linear time-frame is Chakotay himself.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

The cider story doesn't hold water. If Chakotay died immediately after telling Icheb about the cider then keeping it a secret was pointless, if he didn't die at that time then why would Icheb remember this precise conversation seventeen years later as if it was the last one they had? That's the kind of crap that only looks good when you don't think about it.

Perhaps what Icheb means is that he kept Chakotay's secret and hasn't told anyone else? In other words he's been drinking all the cider in the meantime.

In that case, it's hardly something to brag about. I Think it was something incredibly stupid and shortsighted by the dumbass writer of the day. He never stopped one sec. to think about what that remark really meant.

From Icheb and Naomi's POV Chakotay certainly died immediately because the ship's been stuck in the crazy time trap ever since. All of the rest of the ship outside their 'zone' was destroyed from their perspective.

Again, why would Icheb brag to Chakotay about keeping his secret if Chakotay died immediately after telling him that. He didn't have any use for the cider (as a dead guy) so why would he care about what was done with it?

btw, didn't Ceska immediately start interrogating Chakotay about how many others had managed to get on board with him so she did think something had gone wrong with her plan and was asking the right questions.

She should instead have been worried that he was back on board at all! He was supposed to be on a planet without technology, remember? How did he manage to get out of there without external help? How many of them there are is much less critical than how they did get there in the first place.

 

[Lt. Marseille]

Again, why would Icheb brag to Chakotay about keeping his secret if Chakotay died immediately after telling him that. He didn't have any use for the cider (as a dead guy) so why would he care about what was done with it?

Because he has a sense of humour?

She should instead have been worried that he was back on board at all! He was supposed to be on a planet without technology, remember? How did he manage to get out of there without external help? How many of them there are is much less critical than how they did get there in the first place.

From a tactical point of view how many opponents are on board is the more pressing issue from Ceska's POV. In any event the point is that she is concerned and asking questions. You sound like you're only interested in finding fault for it's own sake.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Again, why would Icheb brag to Chakotay about keeping his secret if Chakotay died immediately after telling him that. He didn't have any use for the cider (as a dead guy) so why would he care about what was done with it?

Because he has a sense of humour?

Congratulations! You've just found THE excuse for all the errors, contradictions, oversights of the whole franchise.

Question: Why doesn't Kirk remember that he used to have a brother?


Answer: Because he has a sense of humor?

She should instead have been worried that he was back on board at all! He was supposed to be on a planet without technology, remember? How did he manage to get out of there without external help? How many of them there are is much less critical than how they did get there in the first place.

From a tactical point of view how many opponents are on board is the more pressing issue from Ceska's POV. In any event the point is that she is concerned and asking questions.

From a tactical point of view, it's more important to know who helped them to get out of the planet and how and if there are any ships in the vicinity and with what fire power. I don't think she believes that Chakotay and his confederates just appeared on the ship by miracle, do you?

You sound like you're only interested in finding fault for it's own sake.

I could return the compliment and say that you are only interested in finding excuses for everything and not in having a rational discussion, but I don't think I will.

 

[Lt. Marseille]

Congratulations! You've just found THE excuse for all the errors, contradictions, oversights of the whole franchise.

Question: Why doesn't Kirk remember that he used to have a brother?


Answer: Because he has a sense of humor?

But what I suggested makes perfect sense in the situation. What's the problem? Icheb's been sneakily drinking all the cider on the sly because he's the only one who knows where it is; just like Chakotay used to. He's cheekily letting Chakotay know this. Chakotay once treated him in an inclusive way as 'one of the guys' when he was a boy and he's returning the favour (wow, it really does suck the joy out of everything when you have to spell it out like this). To be honest even if you just read it as Icheb being nostalgic and remembering the last time he saw Chakotay it would still make perfect sense.

From a tactical point of view, it's more important to know who helped them to get out of the planet and how and if there are any ships in the vicinity and with what fire power. I don't think she believes that Chakotay and his confederates just appeared on the ship by miracle, do you?

Those are legitimate questions but if they've actually been boarded already then how many are on board is actually the first question. After all, in order to retake the ship the Voyager crew do actually need to get onto the ship. Demanding that the characters say exactly what you want them to just because 'this is what popped into my head' seems a little ridiculous. I do not understand why you are being so awkward, it does not seem reasonable. I'm sorry that offends you but it does seem to me to be a legitimate question.