Shattered...

[Kobayshi Maru]

Congratulations! You've just found THE excuse for all the errors, contradictions, oversights of the whole franchise.

Question: Why doesn't Kirk remember that he used to have a brother?


Answer: Because he has a sense of humor?

But what I suggested makes perfect sense in the situation. What's the problem? Icheb's been sneakily drinking all the cider on the sly because he's the only one who knows where it is; just like Chakotay used to. He's cheekily letting Chakotay know this. Chakotay once treated him in an inclusive way as 'one of the guys' when he was a boy and he's returning the favour (wow, it really does suck the joy out of everything when you have to spell it out like this). To be honest even if you just read it as Icheb being nostalgic and remembering the last time he saw Chakotay it would still make perfect sense.

It doesn't make sense for the reasons I stipulated. If Chakotay died right at this moment then not telling Neelix about it was no skin off his nose, he couldn't have enjoyed it anyway. If Chakotay died at a later date then why on earth would Icheb recall this particular incident as being of significance? Ether way something doesn't quite fit. Your attempt at excusing it away by saying that it was some lame attempt at humor doesn't work either as Chakotay knew that a couple of bottles of cider wouldn't just sit there for seventen YEARS. Someone had to drink them. Basically what you're saying is that what Icheb says is the long version of "BTW, I drank the cider". After seventeen years? Who cares?

From a tactical point of view, it's more important to know who helped them to get out of the planet and how and if there are any ships in the vicinity and with what fire power. I don't think she believes that Chakotay and his confederates just appeared on the ship by miracle, do you?

Those are legitimate questions but if they've actually been boarded already then how many are on board is actually the first question. After all, in order to retake the ship the Voyager crew do actually need to get onto the ship. Demanding that the characters say exactly what you want them to just because 'this is what popped into my head' seems a little ridiculous. I do not understand why you are being so awkward, it does not seem reasonable. I'm sorry that offends you but it does seem to me to be a legitimate question.

So now I am awkward because I don't agree with you. What's next? You're going to call me names? Can't we have a civil discussion? I thought I was the hostile one. Do I need to bring this turn of the conversation to the moderator's attention?

Anyway, it doesn't make sense that when she first saw Chakotay, Seska didn't immediately realize that there was much more to that situation than meets the eye. Especially if we consider how brilliant she normally is. Chakotay was supposed to be on a barren planet fighting with sticks and stones (will break my bones ) against cavemen (literally) and giant worms with teeth. His presence on the ship should have alerted her that something was really wrong and simply inquiring as to how many were on board seems like a futile question given that that number could change as they were talking to each other? How long did it take voyager to beam a hundred of Klingons on board the ship?

Anyway, if you have other insults to throw at me, then please do, I'll report them immediately to the moderator.

 

[Lt. Marseille]

It doesn't make sense for the reasons I stipulated. If Chakotay died right at this moment then not telling Neelix about it was no skin off his nose, he couldn't have enjoyed it anyway. If Chakotay died at a later date then why on earth would Icheb recall this particular incident as being of significance? Ether way something doesn't quite fit. Your attempt at excusing it away by saying that it was some lame attempt at humor doesn't work either as Chakotay knew that a couple of bottles of cider wouldn't just sit there for seventen YEARS. Someone had to drink them. Basically what you're saying is that what Icheb says is the long version of "BTW, I drank the cider". After seventeen years? Who cares?

Tell you what, I'll respond with another quote from you:

That's the kind of crap that only looks good when you don't think about it.

You're ignoring everything I've said (again) and appear to be practicing some kind of willful blindness. Icheb is not giving Chakotay a stock report; in any way. It is a moment of male bonding. Icheb is sharing an 'in joke' between them as well as referring back to the last time they saw each other which will have been significant for Icheb and very recent for Chakotay. Its a mark of affection and a line supposed to show character rather than be purely expository. As has also been shown in this thread (which I hadn't previously clocked and raises far more interesting questions) it's also something of a Chekhov's Gun.

Anyway, it doesn't make sense that when she first saw Chakotay, Seska didn't immediately realize that there was much more to that situation than meets the eye. Especially if we consider how brilliant she normally is. Chakotay was supposed to be on a barren planet fighting with sticks and stones (will break my bones ) against cavemen (literally) and giant worms with teeth. His presence on the ship should have alerted her that something was really wrong and simply inquiring as to how many were on board seems like a futile question given that that number could change as they were talking to each other? How long did it take voyager to beam a hundred of Klingons on board the ship?

You can argue until you're blue in the face about what the correct tactical response is. If Voyager's crew have the ability to get on board then they could've beamed everybody on board already. If everybody that they can beam on board (possibly the entire crew) is on board then wasting time asking about how they escaped the planet and what means of transport they used to get there would be pointless. Ceska is a trained operative, she's had a moment to decide how to proceed with an interrogation whilst Chakotay's unconscious, so she gets down to brass tacks right away. How many people are with him and where are they. This is a perfectly reasonable and plausible approach. I don't see how you can possibly be so dogmatic that she must ask the questions you specify first.

So now I am awkward because I don't agree with you. What's next? You're going to call me names? Can't we have a civil discussion? I thought I was the hostile one. Do I need to bring this turn of the conversation to the moderator's attention?

I was genuinely trying to get you to re-examine and think about the arguments you had made because in my view you didn't appear to be taking on board or thinking about anything that I had contributed and your criticisms (IMO) seem very petty. Evidently I was wasting my time.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

It doesn't make sense for the reasons I stipulated. If Chakotay died right at this moment then not telling Neelix about it was no skin off his nose, he couldn't have enjoyed it anyway. If Chakotay died at a later date then why on earth would Icheb recall this particular incident as being of significance? Ether way something doesn't quite fit. Your attempt at excusing it away by saying that it was some lame attempt at humor doesn't work either as Chakotay knew that a couple of bottles of cider wouldn't just sit there for seventen YEARS. Someone had to drink them. Basically what you're saying is that what Icheb says is the long version of "BTW, I drank the cider". After seventeen years? Who cares?

Tell you what, I'll respond with another quote from you:

That's the kind of crap that only looks good when you don't think about it.

How civil of you to insult me with words that I personally didn't use to insult anybody. You've just made a ransom note with my own words and sent it to me. How kind!

I think I am running out of patience with you.

And as a matter of fact You are the one who's deliberately ignoring everything I say.

You can't just excuse everything by calling it male bonding and leaving it at that.

As I said before, To chakotay the event had just happened but to Icheb it was seventeen years ago. It doesn't make sense for Icheb to even recall the incident since he never expected to see chakotay again. To him that's no more relevant than any other little detail that happened in his life over seventeen years.
He could as well have said, BTW, Tuvok never beat me at kalto (sp?) or some other triviality. Let's face it. That kind of thing is the result of sloppy thinking by negligent writers. Nobody in his/her right mind would assume that someone would keep vividly in mind some irrelevant piece of dialogue for seventeen years if their chances of ever using it was exactly zero. Can you imagine meeting with someone you haven't seen for seventeen years and never expected to see again, coming toward you and saying something like "BTW, I get your joke about the three guys in a bar." or something like that? This is how absurd Icheb's remark is.

Anyway, it doesn't make sense that when she first saw Chakotay, Seska didn't immediately realize that there was much more to that situation than meets the eye. Especially if we consider how brilliant she normally is. Chakotay was supposed to be on a barren planet fighting with sticks and stones (will break my bones ) against cavemen (literally) and giant worms with teeth. His presence on the ship should have alerted her that something was really wrong and simply inquiring as to how many were on board seems like a futile question given that that number could change as they were talking to each other? How long did it take voyager to beam a hundred of Klingons on board the ship?

You can argue until you're blue in the face about what the correct tactical response is. If Voyager's crew have the ability to get on board then they could've beamed everybody on board already. If everybody that they can beam on board (possibly the entire crew) is on board then wasting time asking about how they escaped the planet and what means of transport they used to get there would be pointless. Ceska is a trained operative, she's had a moment to decide how to proceed with an interrogation whilst Chakotay's unconscious, so she gets down to brass tacks right away. How many people are with him and where are they. This is a perfectly reasonable and plausible approach. I don't see how you can possibly be so dogmatic that she must ask the questions you specify first.

So now I am awkward because I don't agree with you. What's next? You're going to call me names? Can't we have a civil discussion? I thought I was the hostile one. Do I need to bring this turn of the conversation to the moderator's attention?

I was genuinely trying to get you to re-examine and think about the arguments you had made because in my view you didn't appear to be taking on board or thinking about anything that I had contributed and your criticisms (IMO) seem very petty. Evidently I was wasting my time.

I am getting tired of this exchange where you're getting increasingly impertinent. I think I'll leave you to your certainties before you say something you'll regret.

 

[Garak]

Guy, guys, you both lose. Voyager is terrible.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Guy, guys, you both lose. Voyager is terrible.

Of course, you'd say that! You're Garak!

 

[Lt. Marseille]

Kobayashi Maru wrote:

How civil of you to insult me with words that I personally didn't use to insult anybody.

You don't think that's insulting to the writers?

No, remember at the very end, Janeway mentioned to Chakotay that she knew where he had hidden his cider, and that she had not revealed the secret to Neelix? She learned this as Season 1 Janeway during the time shattering from 17-year older Icheb. In other words, the other timelines were not destroyed.

In truth it's a bit confusing...

This seems to me to be genuinely interesting and to pose genuine problems. If the other timelines weren't erased then all of the characters would have known things they shouldn't and would affect their behaviour earlier in the series.

So, I thought, perhaps the timeline was erased but it's only Janeway that remembers what happened because of the Doctor's injection that essentially makes her like Chakotay. There'd still be problems but at least they'd be less egregious.

Then I realised that wouldn't wash because they injected a whole load more people for the denouement. The only way I can see it working atm is that everyone who was injected retains the memory but that it is only embedded in their consciousness at the moment when Chakotay 'returns' from the time fracture doo dah.

The only way, I think, to make sense of this is by inferring something as I'm doing here. OTOH I think there may be some support for it in the performance. When Chakotay non-reports what has happened and cites the Temporal Prime Directive Janeway has an 'eyes sideways' moment as if a dim memory is coming back to her.

Of course, if that solution is correct then you've got to wonder if Icheb and Naomi have suddenly received memories of 17 years worth of an alternative future...

 

[Timewalker]

Can you imagine meeting with someone you haven't seen for seventeen years and never expected to see again, coming toward you and saying something like "BTW, I get your joke about the three guys in a bar." or something like that? This is how absurd Icheb's remark is.

If people are good enough friends or there was something else associated with the memory, something like this isn't absurd at all.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Kobayashi Maru wrote:

How civil of you to insult me with words that I personally didn't use to insult anybody.

You don't think that's insulting to the writers?

.

People insult the writers all the time since this is the forum for that, but if you continue insulting me, I will report you. I've been tolerant so far but there is a limit to everything.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Can you imagine meeting with someone you haven't seen for seventeen years and never expected to see again, coming toward you and saying something like "BTW, I get your joke about the three guys in a bar." or something like that? This is how absurd Icheb's remark is.

If people are good enough friends or there was something else associated with the memory, something like this isn't absurd at all.

Well, I guess, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

 

[Timewalker]

Can you imagine meeting with someone you haven't seen for seventeen years and never expected to see again, coming toward you and saying something like "BTW, I get your joke about the three guys in a bar." or something like that? This is how absurd Icheb's remark is.

If people are good enough friends or there was something else associated with the memory, something like this isn't absurd at all.

Well, I guess, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

I suppose so, since it seems that you've never had such an experience yourself. I have, and it's a blessing to have friends with whom one can pick up old conversations from years ago, when it's been a long time between visits.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

If people are good enough friends or there was something else associated with the memory, something like this isn't absurd at all.

Well, I guess, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

I suppose so, since it seems that you've never had such an experience yourself. I have, and it's a blessing to have friends with whom one can pick up old conversations from years ago, when it's been a long time between visits.

It's polite to refrain from making that kind of assumption about someone you know nothing about, IE ME.

Why can't people dispense from getting personal. It's not that difficult, is it?

Back on the stopic at hand, I doubt you've ever met someone you thought was dead for seventeen years as is the case in the episode, if you had it would have been one hell of a coincidence.

It's not the same as meeting someone you still keep in touch with from time to time. Why don't we compare things that are comparable? That would be a nice change.

 

[Timewalker]

Well, I guess, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

I suppose so, since it seems that you've never had such an experience yourself. I have, and it's a blessing to have friends with whom one can pick up old conversations from years ago, when it's been a long time between visits.

It's polite to refrain from making that kind of assumption about someone you know nothing about, IE ME.

Why can't people dispense from getting personal. It's not that difficult, is it?

Back on the stopic at hand, I doubt you've ever met someone you thought was dead for seventeen years as is the case in the episode, if you had it would have been one hell of a coincidence.

It's not the same as meeting someone you still keep in touch with from time to time. Why don't we compare things that are comparable? That would be a nice change.

Sorry, I missed the part about the person being dead. Yeah, that would make the situation harder. I've actually sort of been in that situation in RL (I was the person who had been thought dead and it was a shock to the other when I turned up very much alive).

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

There's also one thing to consider: If Chakotay's time prevails, then Icheb and Naomi of the future are certain to disappear. The two timelines being incompatible.

Do they realize that they're about to "never have existed"? Which in a sense is even worse than death, at least in death there's some hope for an afterlife, with non existence, you don't even have that.