Shatnertage's Mostly-1st-Time Watch Thread

[MrJ]

I have now embarked on...

"The Way of the Warrior"

I wonder if the Klingon guy who's regional director of marketing for a blood wine distributor thinks he's a warrior, too. They certainly take their warriorness seriously.

Onto the episode...from the start it's apparent there's a big shift here.


4. The lighting seems to be even lower in this episode. The Worf/O'Brien scene in Quark's seems to be shot through a red filter, or with the white balance really off (my wife, who knows about these things, says it's a filter).

A lot of people notice that the lighting is different in season 4 onwards. That’s because they started using source lighting instead of the nice even TV studio lighting used in TNG and Voyager. Source lighting, when the majority of the light in a scene comes from the actual lights on set instead of off camera studio lights, gives everything a more gritty and realistic look. Two words that DS9 and later NuBSG strived for.
　
Rick Berman also hated when they did things like source lighting, memorable orchestra music and creative camera shots. But by season 4 he really didn't have anything to with DS9 anymore, leaving the actual running of the show to Ira Steven Behr. In the third season episode "The Die is Cast" the finale scene is shot with Garak facing Odo and Odo's reflection in a mirror behind Garak, and done in one long continuous take. Berman hated that shot and told them to redo it. But there wasn't enough time and the shot stayed the same. With Berman gone and focusing on running Voyager (into the ground) Behr was free to do a lot more creative stuff than had ever been done in Star Trek before.

5. A new credits sequence! Which I actually like better than the old one. Seems more dynamic. Seeing it on YouTube doesn't do it justice.

The new credits was another example in the change in tone and structure of the show. As well as showing off the improved visual effects. Before, DS9 was all alone in space except for a lone runabout. Now there are multiple runabouts, numerous ships flying to and from the station, Worker Bees, EVA engineers always fixing that upper pylon and the Big (Little!?) D undocking from the station and flying into the wormhole. All signifying that DS9 has gone from an insignificant, rundown, toothless, beat-up ore refining station to "The most important piece of real estate in the Alpha Quadrant."

6. A new emphasis on galactic wars--which could go either way for me. During the big battle scene, I realized that I'm just not a huge fan of seeing things blow up. If you want to show conflict, give me Garak and Odo's "I want to go home" any day. That scene was actually uncomfortable to watch. The space battle stuff is technically impressive, but emotionally doesn't do much for me. Except for Picard at the end of "Yesterday's Enterprise." Or Janeway's Death Grimace from "Year of Hell, Part II."

Don't worry, unlike Voyager, which seemed to get in a space battle every week. Even if the battles only consisted of "Target their weapons array" and pointlessly shoot at each other for a few minutes to fill time. DS9 space battles were much more rare, but when they did happen they were much bigger and more spectacular than anything in TNG, VGR, ENT and even the last 2 TNG films. They were also integral to the plot with every shot that is fired being important to the story. Also, Klingon and Dominion weapons are much stronger than anything Voyager went up against (except the Borg) resulting in DS9 space battles that are much faster paced, and in my opinion, more exciting than VGR and ENT space battles were characters simply call out: "shields down to 75%" or "hull plating down to 47%"

7. Worf has come over from TNG! And he's just as humorless and honor-obsessed as ever! Nice to see they're still using the skeletor Klingon calisthenics program.

I dunno, I always thought that "[Worf] has a sense of humour. On the Enterprise, [he] was considered to be quite amusing." But that might have been just because "That must've been one dull ship."

The story was interesting, and not without context today. A supposed Cardassian Spring has put a civilian government in charge, but who's really behind them? The Founders? So the Klingons think the answer is invading Cardassia, while the Feds want to slow play this one.

You hit the nail right on the head. Even after all this time, after being made in the mid to late 90's DS9 is still, if not more, socially relevant as it was when it first came out. Not to spoil anything but there is a two part episode coming up that even in 1996 addressed 9/11.

Here's a question: they make a big deal about needing a blood sample to make sure people aren't founders. Why couldn't they just pull out a hair? Or clip a fingernail? Or just take a swab from inside their mouth? Or let them run on a treadmill for five minutes and break a sweat? I guess all of that is a lot less visually dramatic than taking blood.

For that matter, you could ask them to pee in a cup. But I can't even imagine how that would play out on screen.

They went with the blood screenings because that's what worked for them in "The Adversary". The thing is Blood screenings didn't even work then, as they got a false positive from Changeling Bashir when he framed Edington. And I can think of at least one way a Changeling could give a false negative. The point is, there is no way to find a Changeling, except to shoot it. The blood screening is just a security measure to make the heroes feel safe, kind of like taking your shoes off at airport security. Basically, the Changelings "are everywhere" and at this point, anyone could be a changeling.

They've definitely militarized the show. I'm not totally sold yet, but I want to see how this plays out. I'm certainly more curious to see what's up ahead than I was in season 3.

Exactly what was supposed to happen. I remember when I saw a preview for the episode next week after "Way of the Warrior" and I was disappointed because it looked like a technobabble heavy, time travel story, not usually my favourite kind of episode. But it instead turned out to be one of the single greatest episodes in all of Star Trek History. (I say that without a single trace of hyperbole)

How could I not love this episode when Garak had a few great scenes? Loved his, "I think I've got all I need" when he was "taking Sisko's measurements." His subsequent talk with Garak was fun, as was their fighting "side...by...side." But the root beer scene with Quark absolutely stole the show. Brilliant stuff from both actors there, and well written.

Odo's "With what?" reply to Quark's "I'll kill him" gets the honorable mention for good writing. Stuff like that makes the character more interesting and the whole show more enjoyable.

The dialogue from here on out really gets good. It's another thing that Berman was always against, using humorous scenes in serious episodes. And even funny lines in serious scenes.



Basically, welcome to Season 4 of DS9. When Niners say that DS9 is the best written, best acted and all around greatest Star Trek series ever, they are actually referring to season 4 onwards.

 

[Shatnertage]

^ The source lighting works well except when it doesn't. Sometimes when someone moves in front of the source of the lighting, it just looks kind of strange. I can see why Berman didn't like it because it looks a lot less cleaner and, in some ways, cheaper. They definitely need to be much more careful about how they frame shots. But I think it fits what they're trying to do here.

 

[TheGodBen]

The Way of the Warrior was the episode that made me a Niner. The fact that they could tell a story on such a grand scale but still had plenty of time for the character interaction, including some good comedic bits, was a step above what TNG managed. And what happened in this episode mattered, the Klingons weren't allies again by the end of the episode and they remained an antagonistic force in future stories

While bringing Worf onto the show was a stunt and it probably shouldn't have worked, I feel that the writers did a good job with him and he fits within the large ensemble cast very well. I prefer him on DS9 than on TNG, his divided loyalties and his struggle for self-control are attributes that fit right in on DS9. If there's a problem with Worf joining the show it's that he steals some of Kira's thunder for a while.

ETA: As for the new intro, I think that the original theme is a nicer piece of music, but I do like how the new version sounds busier, just like the visuals.

Rick Berman also hated when they did things like source lighting, memorable orchestra music and creative camera shots. But by season 4 he really didn't have anything to with DS9 anymore, leaving the actual running of the show to Ira Steven Behr.

That's not entirely true, everything still had to be run by Berman before it could be made, and there's numerous examples of him entering his input, and sometimes butting heads with Ira Behr, right up into season 7. In fact, brining Worf onto the show was his idea. If there was a change it was that Berman wasn't able to focus on DS9 as much as he used to because Voyager was on the air and it demanded more attention as it was on a network while DS9 was syndicated. DS9 had the luxury of being largely unnoticed (compared to Voyager, at least) by Paramount executives so the writers got to take bigger liberties as the show went on.

 

[Admiral Shran]

The Way of the Warrior is indeed excellent. I would say that it's a second pilot for the series, if it weren't for the fact that they didn't just throw everything from Seasons 1-3 out the nearest airlock. From here on out, they generally take the good things about the first three seasons and ramp them up to eleven, with some noticeable exceptions.

The addition of Worf (he's played by Scott Bakula right? ) was welcome. While I don't think it was entirely necessary, from a storytelling perspective, the writers and showrunners did what they did best with his character - they took what they were given and made it good as best they could.

 

[Athena28]

I have now embarked on...

"The Way of the Warrior"

I wonder if the Klingon guy who's regional director of marketing for a blood wine distributor thinks he's a warrior, too. They certainly take their warriorness seriously.

Onto the episode...from the start it's apparent there's a big shift here.

1. Sisko is bald. I'm not sure I like this look. In general I'm not a fan of the bald/goatee look, since it usually just mean a guy whose male pattern baldness is asserting itself trying to look badass. But Avery Brooks might be able to pull it off here...

From what I recall, they wouldn't let him go bald (or goateed) in the first few years as they didn't want to confuse the viewer concerning his earlier character "Hawk" (of Baretta & Hawk).

I love the addition of Worf and Season 4 caught my interest all over again with what he brings and, of course, The Founders.

 

[Shatnertage]

Another thing that impressed me about this episode was that they actually delivered a massive battle at the end. During that long build-up, I was thinking that there was absolutely no way they could deliver anything close to the scale they were talking about. No way, I thought, could they afford to film a huge SF-heavy space battle followed by extra- and make-up-heavy hand-to-hand fighting in the station. But they did a good job of it. I was pleasantly surprised.

Just for the sake of argument, though, if that Klingon had sliced Odo with his batleth, what exactly would have happened? Wouldn't he just have re-formed himself?

And Morn got a lot to do in this episode! Harassed by Klingons then fitted for thermal underwear.

 

[Sykonee]

And Morn got a lot to do in this episode! Harassed by Klingons then fitted for thermal underwear.

There's an exact DS9 mathematical equation that proves this isn't just a coincidence:

Moar Morn = Bigger Events r Afoot

 

[Shatnertage]

One other good thing about this one: every time Gowron's eyes bug out, I get to yell, "Dude, switch to decaf!"

I wonder how long before that gets old?

 

[BlueStuff]

The Visitor next.

 

[Shatnertage]

And I've gotten a visit from...

"The Visitor"

This is difficult for me to write. For a few minutes I'll have to stop quipping about hairstyling abominations and Cardassian secret police sipping mimosas and, well, flesh out the character of Shatnertage a little.

How DS9.

There's really no reason that I should have seen "The Visitor" before. I didn't watch DS9 with any regularity during its original run, and by the late 1990s wasn't into Trek much at all. But, one day while I was sitting at home, I saw that an episode of DS9 was on, and figured, why not?

And that episode happened to be "The Visitor."

Why is this relevant? Like Jake Sisko, I had literary ambitions. Like Jake Sisko, my father, who introduced me to jazz and writing and so much more, died far too soon (I was in my early twenties). Like Jake Sisko, I put my life on hold to try to save him.

Unlike Jake Sisko, in the end, I failed.

So, when I flipped on the TV a short time after my dad died, expecting to see what little I expected of DS9--mostly technobabble and Klingons--I was absolutely floored to see Jake struggling with so much of what I was struggling. I spent most of the next hour just weeping.

Because (and those of you who've lost somebody close can attest to this) the dead do come back. In dreams. Which you can dismiss as dreams once you're fully awake, but there's always that moment right after you wake up, when you realize that no, they really are gone, and you get dragged back to reality. So even though my father wasn't caught in subspace, I had a feel, on an emotional level, for what Jake was going through.

Did seeing "The Visitor" back then heal me? No, but it did get me asking myself the right questions. And it let me know that, hey, you're not alone in this.

So as you can see, I had a few thoughts on "The Visitor" before starting to watch DS9 again this year.

I had forgotten most of the actual plotline outside of the idea of Jake giving up his life to save his dad. After all, it's been more than twelve years.

This time around, the story is just as resonant, but for different reasons. Now I'm a father myself and Ben Sisko isn't a father figure so much as a peer figure for me. But deep down, seeing it triggered something in me--maybe a little guilt (as irrational as that sounds) for, unlike Jake, "giving up" and moving on with my life.

The funeral scene also struck home for me--my own father was a pretty well-known guy in our community and there were a few hundred people at his funeral (where, unlike Jake, I gave a eulogy), so the sight of all of those people crowding the promenade in honor of Ben Sisko got the tears going again.

So, all that being said, what about the episode itself? Do I give it a pass just because it's a beautiful piece of television that meant a lot to me in difficult time?

Well, not totally. If I'm going to be completely honest, I've got to admit three things at the very least.

One, Melanie's initial confession to Jake--how much she loved his work--could have used a little rewrite. It just sounded like writing instead of dialog. But, since she wanted to be a writer, that might have been the point.

Two, as much as I love Tony Todd, I think he might have been miscast here, if only because his muscle tone doesn't make him a convincing old man. I was able to get beyond that and focus on his performance, but for a second I was thinking, "Damn! Gramps is pretty ripped!"

Third, Avery Brooks kind of took me out of the story the second time he re-appeared. Again, it was the emotionally blind Sisko stuff. Jake was clearly distraught and, at first, he was just, "So what's been happening?" even though it had been a year. But his later work in the episode was so beautiful that I can't fault his performance as a whole.

His "You're older than I am" was particularly good. Again, it triggered something emotional in me as I realized that, if things go well, some day I'll be older than my father was when I last saw him.

Ah, who am I kidding? This was one of the most emotionally powerful hours of television I've ever watched. I'm not going to bother quibble about what I think they got wrong.

Some other good stuff: Aron Eisenberg convincingly pulls off an older Nog. I guess 24th century medical technology is still no match for O'Brien's hearty Irish breakfasts, since he's not around to help them out in the future. Poor guy.

The scene where Kira tells Jake he's eventually going to have to leave (source lighting) was great. Also emotional because a big part of the grieving process is eventually coming to grips with loss and leaving the person behind. Having left the city where I grew up myself, Jake's desire to stay on DS9 is only all the more poignant for me.

I could probably write about this for a few more hours but, like Ben Sisko told Jake, I've got to live life--in this case play with my oldest for a little while before breakfast. I'd be interested in hearing what other people hear about the episode--I definitely brought something to it that I can understand many other people wouldn't.

And also, thanks to all of you for a forum where I feel comfortable sharing some things I don't share with most people. I'd ordinarily refrain from that kind of thing (after all, we're here to talk Trek, not for me to process my grief), but I opened up because I figured that if someone else is in the same boat maybe it'll help them out to see that I went through the same thing and eventually pulled through. Think of it as repaying the favor DS9 did for me when I unexpectedly watched "The Visitor" all those years ago.

 

[BlueStuff]

Thanks for sharing, Shatnertage. I consider myself lucky not to have had to go through what you (or indeed Jake) went through just yet but nonetheless I found The Visitor to be a very moving episode of television, and I'm sure the majority of Niners agree.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

And also, thanks to all of you for a forum where I feel comfortable sharing some things I don't share with most people. I'd ordinarily refrain from that kind of thing (after all, we're here to talk Trek, not for me to process my grief), but I opened up because I figured that if someone else is in the same boat maybe it'll help them out to see that I went through the same thing and eventually pulled through. Think of it as repaying the favor DS9 did for me when I unexpectedly watched "The Visitor" all those years ago.

You're always welcome, Shatnertage. Sure, we're here to gush and quibble over Trek, but we're also a community. And if someone wants to share something of themselves, something painful or difficult or simply profound, then we'll listen. And I for one think it's greatly valuable that we trust each enough to share these things. So thank you for trusting us with your feelings, your experiences.

 

[JayOwl]

The Visitor is probably my favourite episode of DS9, and that's saying a lot.

Spoiler: Other eps

("In the Pale Moonlight" and "Duet" are close)

But it's the only episode that I actualy cried after.
I got that sinking, very emotional feeling at the end of "Duet" but I held it together. That isn't to say there aren't any gems still to come. Most of the rest of the episodes are very entertaining, especially

Spoiler:

The Dominion War Arc

but the first time I watched this... Oh I looked like an idiot, but I didn't care.

Emotions aside, it was still a very interesting and entertaining episode for me, I liked the concept. Also, the futuristic future was quite good - the repeat experiment especially.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Got to warn you...if that episode made you cry, and for those reasons, there is another one in a later season that will really get to you as well.

Spoiler: Have a box of tissues handy for...

Ties of Blood and Water

 

[Admiral Shran]

^ If I were a gambling man, I'd put hard money on that episode being a tear jerker as well.

The scenes here where Jake either gets teary-eyed or actually cries get me every time - in particular, the scene where he cries in the Infirmary. I'll admit that I don't often cry when watching TV or movies, but whenever a character I care about does so, that usually does it for me.

The Visitor is a very moving hour of television and definitely deserves to be considered in DS9's top tier (much more so than The Inner Light for TNG). However, I won't say it's my favorite. It's easily in the top ten, no doubt.

 

[Shatnertage]

^ These days I get teary-eyed over just about everything. There's scene in Battle for the Planet of the Apes that chokes me up, for crying out loud!

But now I'm onto an episode that's not a tear-jerker, unless you're a drug dealer. That's...

"Hippocratic Oath"

Oh, I get it. This really is the season where they say, "This isn't TNG" and start shaking things up. Exhibit one: "Hippocratic Oath."

The B-story is about Worf getting pissed at Odo for being a slacker security chief, and Odo taking the piss out of Worf after Worf ruins his bust. That part of the show got me thinking about The Wire. If Odo had just started drinking heavily and banging waitresses, he'd totally be McNulty.

And it's nice that Sisko spelled out for Worf just what his job as strategic officer is supposed to be, but it still sounds like a made-up corporate title to me. Worf is Chief Strategy Officer. He's tasked with pursuing strategic partnerships to advance the Federation brand in both the Alpha and Gamma quadrants, as well as optimizing the Federation's sales force. Or something along those lines.

But it's a real conflict among two regulars. Not just the Odo/Quark stuff, which makes some sense because Quark was set up as a somewhat hostile presence, but between two people who are supposed to be on the same side. I don't think I've seen that before in Trek, except for dilemmas of the week that are wrapped up by the end of the show.

But the A story takes this to the next level. O'Brien and Bashir don't just have a pissing contest over how to deal with the Jem'Hadar: O'Brien disobeys a direct order and totally ruins Bashir's research. A little more on this in a minute.

First, I was overjoyed to see Scott MacDonald's name in the credits. Two years ago I had a long interview with him (and Randy Oglesby) at the Vegas con, and he really impressed me as an actor who's willing to really get into a role, as well as a guy who loves Trek. He was great as Tosk, he was great as Dolim, and I like him as Goran'Agar (had to look that one up) too.

Goran'Agar is trying to change things for his guys, but it isn't working. Bashir sees that helping him could not only ease suffering but possibly weaken the Dominion. Fair enough, considering that they now know that Changelings are "everywhere" in the Alpha quadrant working to destabilize it. O'Brien, though, doesn't see it that way at all, and stubbornly refuses to help. At the end, he even sabotages Bashir, violating several direct orders.

And that's where the episode went wrong. There is no way that Bashir and O'Brien can go back to DS9 after this and pretend nothing's happened. O'Brien should be court-martialed--both for disobeying orders and for being incredibly small-minded. In purely logical terms, by helping the Jem'Hadar they were risking the lives of two officers--lives that were already at risk anyway. But they stood to gain a potential weapon against the Dominion that could have foiled any chance of the Dominion threatening the Federation. How do you not take those odds? Selfish, cowardly, and stupid.

On the other hand, if Bashir accepts that O'Brien is in the right here, he also accepts that he's got no sense of judgment and shouldn't be wearing a Starfleet uniform. The only logical thing to do is for Bashir to resign his commission and leave the station. After being showed up by O'Brien like that and not smacking him down, how can he have any respect for himself?

So there's no way they go back to playing darts together like nothing happened.

The ironic thing is that even though I thought O'Brien's actions were ridiculous and Bashir was totally in the right, as far as the actors go I thought Colm Meany completely knocked it out of the park while Alexander Siddig was pretty unconvincing. There were times when I thought O'Brien was going to hit someone; Meany just pulls off frustration very well (maybe that's why they torture him). Siddig didn't so that for me.

I liked that this was an episode that was willing to take some risks. I wish they'd thought about the implications of the O'Brien/Bashir struggle beyond the end of the episode, though. Still, this was a good one buoyed by a strong guest actor that I'd definitely rewatch.

Kira's hair looked much better, too. So did the uniform.

 

[Shatnertage]

^ These days I get teary-eyed over just about everything. There's scene in Battle for the Planet of the Apes that chokes me up, for crying out loud!

But now I'm onto an episode that's not a tear-jerker, unless you're a drug dealer. That's...

"Hippocratic Oath"

Oh, I get it. This really is the season where they say, "This isn't TNG" and start shaking things up. Exhibit one: "Hippocratic Oath."

The B-story is about Worf getting pissed at Odo for being a slacker security chief, and Odo taking the piss out of Worf after Worf ruins his bust. That part of the show got me thinking about The Wire. If Odo had just started drinking heavily and banging waitresses, he'd totally be McNulty.

And it's nice that Sisko spelled out for Worf just what his job as strategic officer is supposed to be, but it still sounds like a made-up corporate title to me. Worf is Chief Strategy Officer. He's tasked with pursuing strategic partnerships to advance the Federation brand in both the Alpha and Gamma quadrants, as well as optimizing the Federation's sales force. Or something along those lines.

But it's a real conflict among two regulars. Not just the Odo/Quark stuff, which makes some sense because Quark was set up as a somewhat hostile presence, but between two people who are supposed to be on the same side. I don't think I've seen that before in Trek, except for dilemmas of the week that are wrapped up by the end of the show.

But the A story takes this to the next level. O'Brien and Bashir don't just have a pissing contest over how to deal with the Jem'Hadar: O'Brien disobeys a direct order and totally ruins Bashir's research. A little more on this in a minute.

First, I was overjoyed to see Scott MacDonald's name in the credits. Two years ago I had a long interview with him (and Randy Oglesby) at the Vegas con, and he really impressed me as an actor who's willing to really get into a role, as well as a guy who loves Trek. He was great as Tosk, he was great as Dolim, and I like him as Goran'Agar (had to look that one up) too.

Goran'Agar is trying to change things for his guys, but it isn't working. Bashir sees that helping him could not only ease suffering but possibly weaken the Dominion. Fair enough, considering that they now know that Changelings are "everywhere" in the Alpha quadrant working to destabilize it. O'Brien, though, doesn't see it that way at all, and stubbornly refuses to help. At the end, he even sabotages Bashir, violating several direct orders.

And that's where the episode went wrong. There is no way that Bashir and O'Brien can go back to DS9 after this and pretend nothing's happened. O'Brien should be court-martialed--both for disobeying orders and for being incredibly small-minded. In purely logical terms, by helping the Jem'Hadar they were risking the lives of two officers--lives that were already at risk anyway. But they stood to gain a potential weapon against the Dominion that could have foiled any chance of the Dominion threatening the Federation. How do you not take those odds? Selfish, cowardly, and stupid.

On the other hand, if Bashir accepts that O'Brien is in the right here, he also accepts that he's got no sense of judgment and shouldn't be wearing a Starfleet uniform. The only logical thing to do is for Bashir to resign his commission and leave the station. After being showed up by O'Brien like that and not smacking him down, how can he have any respect for himself?

So there's no way they go back to playing darts together like nothing happened.

The ironic thing is that even though I thought O'Brien's actions were ridiculous and Bashir was totally in the right, as far as the actors go I thought Colm Meany completely knocked it out of the park while Alexander Siddig was pretty unconvincing. There were times when I thought O'Brien was going to hit someone; Meany just pulls off frustration very well (maybe that's why they torture him). Siddig didn't so that for me.

I liked that this was an episode that was willing to take some risks. I wish they'd thought about the implications of the O'Brien/Bashir struggle beyond the end of the episode, though. Still, this was a good one buoyed by a strong guest actor that I'd definitely rewatch.

Kira's hair looked much better, too. So did the uniform.

 

[Athena28]

And I've gotten a visit from...

"The Visitor"

This is difficult for me to write. For a few minutes I'll have to stop quipping about hairstyling abominations and Cardassian secret police sipping mimosas and, well, flesh out the character of Shatnertage a little...

Wow, some review.

As to the episode itself, I just love Tony Todd so much (I wish he'd been a regular on one of the Trek series) I can overlook anything.

This was a very good ep.

 

[Eyes]

That is a great review of the Visitor, Shatnertage. And a personal experience. Wow. Thanks for sharing.

It is an amazing episode. Made me cry the first time I saw it.

Hippocratic Oath is an interesting episode. It is a dilemma, and while I was on Bashir's side all the way, O'Brien had some good points. Er.. it does get lost a bit among some of the other episodes of this season for me, but it is one I enjoy while watching.

First proper look at the Jem'Hadar as well (not counting The Abandoned).

 

[Admiral Shran]

I always saw the dilemma in Hippocratic Oath to be that both Bashir and O'Brien were in the right. Whenever that happens there's really no way to resolve the issue in a nice tidy way.

That's how I saw this episode being different from TNG. There it would have been resolved and one would have clearly been right and the other clearly wrong with each accepting that as the solution.