Shatnertage...you haven't seen the worst of no consequences for one's actions yet...
Sisko using WMDs on DMZ colonists and Maquis without so much as a slap on the wrist.
Shatnertage's Mostly-1st-Time Watch Thread
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I enjoyed the entire ep. The Worf/Odo story & the conflict regarding whether to help the
Jem'Hadar.
See, I don't get O'Brien's point at all. Sure, they shouldn't collaborate with the enemy. Yes, Goran'Agar might be just conning Bashir. But what if he isn't? The possible payoff--complete destabilization of the Dominion--is just too great not to risk their lives for it. It's not like Bashir was giving them DS9's shield harmonics or anything that could hurt Starfleet. He was merely attempting to heal the sick. What was the worst that could happen? The Jem'Hadar would still be stuck on the planet, but not be dead in 5 days. And they'd kill O'Brien and Bashir, which was already pretty likely.
And not helping the enslaved Jem'Hadar also seems a slap in the face to "Federation principles." Let's say there's a race of warp-capable aliens who've been enslaved by other warp-capable aliens. There's no question of the Prime Directive here (for me). Instead, it's about giving non-lethal aid to allow a race of aliens to assert their own sovereignty, which, if you have any respect for the rights of others, should be a no-brainer.
I just don't see a compelling argument against helping Goran'Agar in that case, besides, "the writers are doing an homage to Bridge on the River Kwai, but instead of fighting over something that clearly aids the enemy, we're making it something medical-related").
Interesting side note--they'd already referenced Kwai in the one where Sisko gets put in the cage by the anti-tech zealots and later would explore a similar dynamic in "Year of Hell, Part II" with Chakotay and Paris.
And not helping the enslaved Jem'Hadar also seems a slap in the face to "Federation principles." Let's say there's a race of warp-capable aliens who've been enslaved by other warp-capable aliens. There's no question of the Prime Directive here (for me). Instead, it's about giving non-lethal aid to allow a race of aliens to assert their own sovereignty, which, if you have any respect for the rights of others, should be a no-brainer.
I just don't see a compelling argument against helping Goran'Agar in that case, besides, "the writers are doing an homage to Bridge on the River Kwai, but instead of fighting over something that clearly aids the enemy, we're making it something medical-related").
Interesting side note--they'd already referenced Kwai in the one where Sisko gets put in the cage by the anti-tech zealots and later would explore a similar dynamic in "Year of Hell, Part II" with Chakotay and Paris.
That kind of gets blown out of proportion though. I could debate it, but all in due time.
Playing Devil's Advocate here for a second.... but if you're going to go down the Prime Directive path, then refusing to help the Jem'Hadar is exactly what the Federation would have done and insisted that Bashir and O'Brien do. After all, there was case where the Federation just sat back and watched as one warp-capable race enslaved another warp-capable race and used the Prime Directive to justify their inaction - the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor. In the episode where the Bajorans are first introduced, TNG: Ensign Ro, Picard explicitly says that the Federation could not and would not intervene on behalf of the Bajorans because of the Prime Directive.
Now, not playing Devil's Advocate but giving my own thoughts - Bashir was obviously in the right to help sentient beings, which is what the Jem'Hadar are. That's why the Prime Directive is ridiculous, IMO. If you see someone suffering it's only moral to help them. You can't hide behind something like the Prime Directive and still be moral. In the end, that just makes you a coward. However, O'Brien had legitimate arguments as well. These weren't just any suffering people. It's not like the situation with the Bajorans during the Occupation. The Jem'Hadar are, in fact, the enemy. Helping them break their addiction could in up harming the Federation.
That's the genius of this episode, IMHO. It focuses the viewers to make their own decisions as to who to side with, it doesn't do that for them. Do you side with Bashir's ideological argument or O'Brien's realpolitik one? Both are legitimate.
I have not seen that episode in a long while so please forgive me if I get anything wrong. I don't know if this has been mentioned in prior episodes, but O'Brien was a Setlik III war veteran and in this situation he basically assumes that both of them have been captured by the Jem'Hadar and are essentially held as prisoners by an obviously hostile race.
As prisoners, O'Brien would weight what the Jem'Hadar say with a grain of salt. There is always a possibility that the Jem'Hadar may be playing mind games to trick Federation secrets out of them.
As prisoners, O'Brien would weight what the Jem'Hadar say with a grain of salt. There is always a possibility that the Jem'Hadar may be playing mind games to trick Federation secrets out of them.
Destabilising the Dominion is one thing, but liberating the Jem'Hadar and giving them the ability to seize control of the Dominion is another. I wont to go into it too much, but there is an episode later this season that addresses the threat posed by some liberated Jem'Hadar, and it vindicates O'Brien's point of view in some ways.
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Well, the Internet was down yesterday (at least if you were a Las Vegas Cox customer), which made for a bit of...
"Indiscretion"
When I saw Mark Alaimo's name in the credits, I knew this was going to be at least a decent episode. And it was actually quite good--keeping the season 4 winning streak alive.
And Alaimo gets some great material to work with here. The way that he held that pledge bracelet said just about everything that needed to be said there. And the whole "kill my daughter" thing, too. That guy's seriously career-obsessed if that's what he's going to do just to keep his spot.
Yes, he's got the rest of his family to think about...but man, this shows just how much I'd rather live in the Federation. Picard had a kid out of wedlock and only had to worry about a Ferengi killing him. Kirk had one, and just had to worry about one particular Klingon bastard.
Well, maybe the point I'm trying to make is that the Federation is a great, unjudgmental place to live, unless you happen to be the previously-unacknowledged illegitimate son of a starship captain. Unlike on Cardassia and the Klingon homeworld, your political power (or lack thereof) doesn't seem to really affect your quality of life.
So it's another "find the missing Bajorans" episode (Kira gets a lot of these) but this one works for me, mostly because of the Kira/Dukat interplay.
Although I've got to say that it's going to be hard to get the image of Dukat, bent over and just about vibrating in pain, screaming, "Take it out! Take it out!" as Kira stands behind him. I hope to someday have the maturity level not to think "strap-on" when I watch that scene.
The b-story is...puzzling. We get the return of Crazy Sisko in a romantic setting. Why Crazy Sisko? Because of stuff like this. Not exactly the kind of look you expect from a romantic partner, is it?
If I was a woman, I'd seriously be afraid to date Sisko. I've got this mental image of waking up and seeing him already wide awake, just staring at you sleeping.
But anyway, this also marks the return of emotionally tone deaf Sisko. I just don't get what was going on over dinner with Kassidy. She was clearly upset, yet instead of saying, "What's wrong?" or "Sorry," he just keeps slicing his chicken and pouring himself wine. It's an almost psychotic lack of empathy for someone who may be in love with him, and it really makes you wonder what's going on in his head.
I'm starting to think that maybe Avery Brooks is playing the game like a pool hustler. Because he'll give you a few scenes like that, where you're just scratching your head trying to figure out what he's trying to convey. You start to think he's just a bad actor. Then, at the end of the episode, he absolutely nails his scene and makes a real emotional connection. It's like he wants you to get your defenses down or something.
I give big a big plus to the scene with Bashir and Dax. I love it when Trek goes the silly Rom Com route, and they're really good at this sort of stuff.
I'm also happy to see that Kassidy Yates still has the personally embossed cargo containers. That just never gets old.
All in all, a very good episode.
"Indiscretion"
When I saw Mark Alaimo's name in the credits, I knew this was going to be at least a decent episode. And it was actually quite good--keeping the season 4 winning streak alive.
And Alaimo gets some great material to work with here. The way that he held that pledge bracelet said just about everything that needed to be said there. And the whole "kill my daughter" thing, too. That guy's seriously career-obsessed if that's what he's going to do just to keep his spot.
Yes, he's got the rest of his family to think about...but man, this shows just how much I'd rather live in the Federation. Picard had a kid out of wedlock and only had to worry about a Ferengi killing him. Kirk had one, and just had to worry about one particular Klingon bastard.
Well, maybe the point I'm trying to make is that the Federation is a great, unjudgmental place to live, unless you happen to be the previously-unacknowledged illegitimate son of a starship captain. Unlike on Cardassia and the Klingon homeworld, your political power (or lack thereof) doesn't seem to really affect your quality of life.
So it's another "find the missing Bajorans" episode (Kira gets a lot of these) but this one works for me, mostly because of the Kira/Dukat interplay.
Although I've got to say that it's going to be hard to get the image of Dukat, bent over and just about vibrating in pain, screaming, "Take it out! Take it out!" as Kira stands behind him. I hope to someday have the maturity level not to think "strap-on" when I watch that scene.
The b-story is...puzzling. We get the return of Crazy Sisko in a romantic setting. Why Crazy Sisko? Because of stuff like this. Not exactly the kind of look you expect from a romantic partner, is it?
If I was a woman, I'd seriously be afraid to date Sisko. I've got this mental image of waking up and seeing him already wide awake, just staring at you sleeping.
But anyway, this also marks the return of emotionally tone deaf Sisko. I just don't get what was going on over dinner with Kassidy. She was clearly upset, yet instead of saying, "What's wrong?" or "Sorry," he just keeps slicing his chicken and pouring himself wine. It's an almost psychotic lack of empathy for someone who may be in love with him, and it really makes you wonder what's going on in his head.
I'm starting to think that maybe Avery Brooks is playing the game like a pool hustler. Because he'll give you a few scenes like that, where you're just scratching your head trying to figure out what he's trying to convey. You start to think he's just a bad actor. Then, at the end of the episode, he absolutely nails his scene and makes a real emotional connection. It's like he wants you to get your defenses down or something.
I give big a big plus to the scene with Bashir and Dax. I love it when Trek goes the silly Rom Com route, and they're really good at this sort of stuff.
I'm also happy to see that Kassidy Yates still has the personally embossed cargo containers. That just never gets old.
All in all, a very good episode.
First!
Instead of a strap-on, it's Dukat laying eggs.
Source thread, in case you're wondering. Though I think it initially came from a ch0p thread a while before then.Man, that scene was both incredibly mentally scarring, and hilarious at the same time.
Indiscretion is definitely a good one. The Kira/Dukat exchanges are gold. And it really helps define the character of Dukat. Here's a guy who loves his position of power so much that he's willing to kill his own child. He can try to justify it by saying he's doing it to protect the rest of his family, but in the end he only cares about his power. In the end, of course, he doesn't go through with it, but he still has that lust for power (as we'll see in later episodes).
As for the B-plot with Sisko and Yates - it's okay. Sisko is clearly apprehensive about the speed the relationship is moving, so I'll go easy on Brooks' performance.
As for the B-plot with Sisko and Yates - it's okay. Sisko is clearly apprehensive about the speed the relationship is moving, so I'll go easy on Brooks' performance.
Most episodes in season 4 are in the good to very good range, although it also has one episode that lies right at the bottom of a barrel of rotten fish. So for now, enjoy the good streak.
Which episode is that? Is it The Muse? That is literally the only episode from season 4 that I don't much care for. But I would say that there are far worse episodes in Star Trek, even DS9 than The Muse.
With my luck, that's next.
Instead, I got...
"Rejoined"
This one was pretty heavy-handed. Yes, they should be allowed to be together despite the taboos of Trill troglodytes. But they're not. And I have a feeling that the whole thing was just a set-up for two women kissing--which turned out to be as awkward to watch as anyone kissing in Star Trek.
For me, watching people make out on Star Trek is like watching people make out in a funeral home.
Or, just kind of uncomfortable.
They really missed an opportunity by not letting Sisko yell, "Kaaaaaaaaaaaahn!"
I don't even remember--was the a B story in this one? It definitely seemed to go on too long. And Avery Brooks had a pretty literal directing style, with lots of alternating tight shots of people while they talked. It kind of felt like a ping pong game at one point.
I've got this one down as a dud. There's an interesting idea, but it's almost like something out of a romance novel: "the love that would not die, despite centuries apart" (with Curzon being 100, I figure it's at least that long since they were together).
Come to think of it, Trek has done a pastiche of a romance novel before. A gothic romance novel. With lots of fog, even on the Enterprise bridge.
That one, strangely enough, is on the "always rewatch" list. It's the fact that it's so easy to mst, I think.
Instead, I got...
"Rejoined"
This one was pretty heavy-handed. Yes, they should be allowed to be together despite the taboos of Trill troglodytes. But they're not. And I have a feeling that the whole thing was just a set-up for two women kissing--which turned out to be as awkward to watch as anyone kissing in Star Trek.
For me, watching people make out on Star Trek is like watching people make out in a funeral home.
Or, just kind of uncomfortable.
They really missed an opportunity by not letting Sisko yell, "Kaaaaaaaaaaaahn!"
I don't even remember--was the a B story in this one? It definitely seemed to go on too long. And Avery Brooks had a pretty literal directing style, with lots of alternating tight shots of people while they talked. It kind of felt like a ping pong game at one point.
I've got this one down as a dud. There's an interesting idea, but it's almost like something out of a romance novel: "the love that would not die, despite centuries apart" (with Curzon being 100, I figure it's at least that long since they were together).
Come to think of it, Trek has done a pastiche of a romance novel before. A gothic romance novel. With lots of fog, even on the Enterprise bridge.
That one, strangely enough, is on the "always rewatch" list. It's the fact that it's so easy to mst, I think.
This is probably Trek's best take on homosexuality, IMO. The fact that nobody in the episode bats an eye that it's two women involved says it all. By making it a non-issue, they did a much better job of addressing the subject than Trek's supposed "it's okay to be gay" episode - TNG: The Outcast.
I also liked that they didn't mention it, thought at times it felt like they were trying really really hard to act like they weren't mentioning it.
I forgot to share my favorite thing about the episode. Every time someone said "Doctor Kahn" I replied "Chaka Khan. Chaka Khan."
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpHSZ0somnE&feature=related[/yt]
That, and when they finally start talking about their feelings, there's a moment where the camera shifts to Doctor Kahn and she doesn't say anything. I blurted out, "I feel for you...I think I love you."
I forgot to share my favorite thing about the episode. Every time someone said "Doctor Kahn" I replied "Chaka Khan. Chaka Khan."
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpHSZ0somnE&feature=related[/yt]
That, and when they finally start talking about their feelings, there's a moment where the camera shifts to Doctor Kahn and she doesn't say anything. I blurted out, "I feel for you...I think I love you."
Sometimes the starship goes up, sometimes you get a...
"Starship Down"
This was an interesting episode with several stories going on. I was thrilled to see James Cromwell here--he's a great actor--and it was nice to see just about everyone (except Odo and Jake) get something to do. Odo hasn't been around a lot lately, has he?
Here are my thoughts on each of the stories:
1. Worf in command. A nice riff on his experience as a nurse in "Disaster." He now learns that he has to be nice to the guys under his command. It would have been funny if he had told O'Brien, "If I was my brother, and we were on a Klingon ship, I would have killed you for offering advice."
I'm guessing that management consulting is not a growth industry in the Klingon Empire.
We got to see a little more of Worf, which was good, and we saw him get ingenious, which was also good, but this wasn't that exciting.
2. Kira tends to wounded Sisko. This one works only because Nana Visitor does such a good job of selling it. This is among the best I've seen from her yet. I really believed that she revered Sisko as the Emissary.
3. Dax and Bashir are trapped. This one was a nice diversion, and we got to learn more about Bashir's unrequited love for Dax.
4. Quark and Hanock. This was my favorite story, not least because it gave me plenty of material for the hypothetical article about Trek and gambling that I'll probably never get around to writing.
I really liked how this showed Quark as not just a money-grubbing Ferengi, but as a risk-taker. Hanock was a great foil for him, and we got some insight into Quark in a way that made him more interesting.
So even though this wasn't a great episode, I liked it. Lots of fun stuff here, and enough serious stuff to make you think.
"Starship Down"
This was an interesting episode with several stories going on. I was thrilled to see James Cromwell here--he's a great actor--and it was nice to see just about everyone (except Odo and Jake) get something to do. Odo hasn't been around a lot lately, has he?
Here are my thoughts on each of the stories:
1. Worf in command. A nice riff on his experience as a nurse in "Disaster." He now learns that he has to be nice to the guys under his command. It would have been funny if he had told O'Brien, "If I was my brother, and we were on a Klingon ship, I would have killed you for offering advice."
I'm guessing that management consulting is not a growth industry in the Klingon Empire.
We got to see a little more of Worf, which was good, and we saw him get ingenious, which was also good, but this wasn't that exciting.
2. Kira tends to wounded Sisko. This one works only because Nana Visitor does such a good job of selling it. This is among the best I've seen from her yet. I really believed that she revered Sisko as the Emissary.
3. Dax and Bashir are trapped. This one was a nice diversion, and we got to learn more about Bashir's unrequited love for Dax.
4. Quark and Hanock. This was my favorite story, not least because it gave me plenty of material for the hypothetical article about Trek and gambling that I'll probably never get around to writing.
I really liked how this showed Quark as not just a money-grubbing Ferengi, but as a risk-taker. Hanock was a great foil for him, and we got some insight into Quark in a way that made him more interesting.
So even though this wasn't a great episode, I liked it. Lots of fun stuff here, and enough serious stuff to make you think.
A pretty good offering. It does give us some great character stuff for Quark and Worf. The Bashir/Dax storyline, however, I could have done without.
Cheesy grins were in overdrive in Starship Down. The main thing I remember from it is the face-stretchingly smiley final scene, Sisko grins and asks Kira to a baseball game, who grins and accepts. Sisko grins some more and throws a baseball cap to Kira, who grins even wider and puts it on. Sisko grins some more. Their faces must've hurt a lot after that scene.
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