Shatnertage's Mostly-1st-Time Watch Thread
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^ 
Now, that's disturbing.
Now, that's disturbing.
Holy crap that's scary.
Anyone know if that's a Homestead Grays cap Sisko gave her? I thought it might be.
Anyone know if that's a Homestead Grays cap Sisko gave her? I thought it might be.
It looks similar to a Homestead Grays cap.
I'd like to add that this is another episode that showcases Starfleet's piss-poor human resources policies. Or just the writers' cluelessness.
Worf was security chief on the Enterprise for a few years--a position where presumably he had dozens of officers and crewman reporting to him. And he's been dispatched on a high-profile assignment as "chief strategic officer" for an entire sector, a position where he'll have command responsibilities of the usually-nebulous Starfleet variety.
Yet he still apparently has no idea how to work with the people under him. He's never done any kind of in-service training on management or gone to any kind of "Starfleet Leadership Academy" that would train him to give orders. It takes a grizzled non-com in the middle of a crisis to explain to him that you need to cut people some slack.
The only other possibility I can think of besides abysmal executive development is that they desperately wanted to get Worf away from the Enterprise E and made up a job title for him on DS9, figuring that he'd get so frustrated he'd just drop out of Starfleet and save them the trouble of firing him. But thanks to his inspirational new captain he decides to stay, making everyone look like idiots.
Worf was security chief on the Enterprise for a few years--a position where presumably he had dozens of officers and crewman reporting to him. And he's been dispatched on a high-profile assignment as "chief strategic officer" for an entire sector, a position where he'll have command responsibilities of the usually-nebulous Starfleet variety.
Yet he still apparently has no idea how to work with the people under him. He's never done any kind of in-service training on management or gone to any kind of "Starfleet Leadership Academy" that would train him to give orders. It takes a grizzled non-com in the middle of a crisis to explain to him that you need to cut people some slack.
The only other possibility I can think of besides abysmal executive development is that they desperately wanted to get Worf away from the Enterprise E and made up a job title for him on DS9, figuring that he'd get so frustrated he'd just drop out of Starfleet and save them the trouble of firing him. But thanks to his inspirational new captain he decides to stay, making everyone look like idiots.
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That photoshop made me jump a bit. I'll never open this page again.
I am back after having been abducted (or not) by...
"Little Green Men"
This episode had two things working for it: it's clever, and it's funny. That's enough to make it a keeper in my book.
Quark's cousin is an Orion chick? Love to see that family tree.
I just read the MA article and I can see where they were going with the "homage" to 1950s sci-fi B-movies. Nice tribute.
And a lot of stuff was actually funny. For example, thanks to this episode, we now know that Dax bought Bashir a stack of Nog's porn--or the holo-equivalent of a stack of porn.
Jake and Nog's farewell scene was bittersweet and really well played. But Avery Brooks gave the 2nd of his two lines in a way that made me think he was heavily, heavily medicated. Just totally flat, almost like that episode where Louise Fletcher really did have the flu and came off sounding flat.
And Morn is honest, but likes to drink. Well, I think we knew that already, but it's still funny--and a nice shout-out to "The Visitor" as well. There may be a few other threads they referenced that I didn't get, although the Gabriel Bell picture was hardly a subtle reminder of past episodes. Still, I like when they reference things we've seen before without being slavishly tied to them. Surprised they didn't work self-sealing stem bolts in.
I also love that, when Rom was about to recap his technobabble explanation, Quark practically broke the fourth wall by saying, "Nobody can understand that anyway--just do it!" It would have been hysterical--but probably too much--if he'd have looked right at the camera when he said it.
Nice to see Rom getting some more development, but I would have been much happier if we didn't have to listen to him scream/moan "Moogie" three times. That's everyone in the show basically flipping you off and daring you to change the channel. Is there anyway you can listen to that without finding it incredibly annoying?
Philosophically, I'm not on board with the human-bashing ("stupid, violent, petty, bigoted, selfish." I guess I just have more faith in my fellows than that. But it was fun to have the Ferengi as the voice of reason, if nothing else.
Liked the call-out to the TOS title sequence, with Megan Gallagher's character talking exploring new worlds and civilizations. She should have paused dramatically after saying "explore."
And now, I have a major, major plot hole/continuity error/anachronism (I don't know what to call it, but I know that Trekkies delight in them). I didn't see this on MA, and I'm not sure that anyone else has ever pointed this out.
In the closing scenes, Quark's ship flies to "Nevada" and into an aboveground a-bomb test. In 1947.
Above-ground tests at the Nevada Test Site didn't start until January 1951.
I suppose that you could counter with the fact that the Eugenics Wars didn't happen in the 1990s, but it still feels good to point out a goof.
"Little Green Men"
This episode had two things working for it: it's clever, and it's funny. That's enough to make it a keeper in my book.
Quark's cousin is an Orion chick? Love to see that family tree.
I just read the MA article and I can see where they were going with the "homage" to 1950s sci-fi B-movies. Nice tribute.
And a lot of stuff was actually funny. For example, thanks to this episode, we now know that Dax bought Bashir a stack of Nog's porn--or the holo-equivalent of a stack of porn.
Jake and Nog's farewell scene was bittersweet and really well played. But Avery Brooks gave the 2nd of his two lines in a way that made me think he was heavily, heavily medicated. Just totally flat, almost like that episode where Louise Fletcher really did have the flu and came off sounding flat.
And Morn is honest, but likes to drink. Well, I think we knew that already, but it's still funny--and a nice shout-out to "The Visitor" as well. There may be a few other threads they referenced that I didn't get, although the Gabriel Bell picture was hardly a subtle reminder of past episodes. Still, I like when they reference things we've seen before without being slavishly tied to them. Surprised they didn't work self-sealing stem bolts in.
I also love that, when Rom was about to recap his technobabble explanation, Quark practically broke the fourth wall by saying, "Nobody can understand that anyway--just do it!" It would have been hysterical--but probably too much--if he'd have looked right at the camera when he said it.
Nice to see Rom getting some more development, but I would have been much happier if we didn't have to listen to him scream/moan "Moogie" three times. That's everyone in the show basically flipping you off and daring you to change the channel. Is there anyway you can listen to that without finding it incredibly annoying?
Philosophically, I'm not on board with the human-bashing ("stupid, violent, petty, bigoted, selfish." I guess I just have more faith in my fellows than that. But it was fun to have the Ferengi as the voice of reason, if nothing else.
Liked the call-out to the TOS title sequence, with Megan Gallagher's character talking exploring new worlds and civilizations. She should have paused dramatically after saying "explore."
And now, I have a major, major plot hole/continuity error/anachronism (I don't know what to call it, but I know that Trekkies delight in them). I didn't see this on MA, and I'm not sure that anyone else has ever pointed this out.
In the closing scenes, Quark's ship flies to "Nevada" and into an aboveground a-bomb test. In 1947.
Above-ground tests at the Nevada Test Site didn't start until January 1951.
I suppose that you could counter with the fact that the Eugenics Wars didn't happen in the 1990s, but it still feels good to point out a goof.
No, no there isn't.
It's a reasonably good episode, though, and I agree most of the humour genuinely works.
I never found it annoying. I always thought it was funny.
Little Green Men is one of the *good*
Ferengi episodes -probably because it's not burdened with the unfunny and annoying Ferengi characters (Zek and Ishka) and focuses on three of them I like.One thing I'll point out - at the end, Odo arrests Quark even though all the evidence of his smuggling has been destroyed and simply tells Quark that he'll have to "explain it to the magistrate." Odo seems to do that quite a lot. He hauls Quark in on little to no, or flimsy, evidence and expects the magistrates to sort it out. If I were these Bajoran judges, I'd start to get a little annoyed at this constable who constantly burdens my court with meaningless and untryable cases.
There are only two Ferengi-heavy episodes that I like. One is Little Green Men, the other is based on Akira Kurosawa's Seven Samurai.
I can't remember exactly where I've seen it, perhaps its in one of the DVD extras, but I've seen Ira Behr say that yeah certain things in Little Green Men don't fit continuity but who cares, its so much fun.
I can't remember exactly where I've seen it, perhaps its in one of the DVD extras, but I've seen Ira Behr say that yeah certain things in Little Green Men don't fit continuity but who cares, its so much fun.
We're going on the most glorious quest ever. It'll take less than 45 minutes and mostly take place in caves. So we've got to be after...
"The Sword of Kahless"
This is an odd episode that made me think about some of the weaknesses in the main DS9 cast.
Before I go on, keep in mind that this is all just my personal perspective. I don't claim any great insight into television production or acting. I'm not saying that I could do better. I'm just saying that, as a viewer, this is how I feel. I also don't have any personal animus towards anyone involved with the show--I've seen some posters take their criticisms of actors and production people to very, very personal levels. They're all professionals who know, on some level, what they're doing. I'm sure if I ever got the chance to meet any of them I'd have something nice to say.
Here goes: the problem with the cast as I see it is that you've got two sets of actors, or at least approaches. Half of the cast tackles everything in a stylized, unnatural way that comes across as ponderous, and the other half is casual, almost glib.
Here's how I break it down:
PONDEROUS
Avery Brooks--Sisko
Nana Visitor--Kira
Michael Dorn--Worf
GLIB
Terry Farrell--Dax
Alexander Siddig--Bashir
Cirroc Lofton--Jake
Armin Shimerman--Quark
Rene Auberjonois' Odo is somewhere in the middle: he sometimes does the quick banter with Quark and gets off some good zingers, while at other times he's pretty stylized in his speaking.
Most of TNG was the more stylized approach. Since the only people who fired off zingers were guest stars like Whoppi Goldberg, it worked pretty well.
But in DS9 you get real a real style clash. This episode is a great example. You get the very formal, slow-speaking Worf and the casual Dax as the regulars who carry it, and it almost seems like they're not in the same room.
So that's what I was thinking about as I was watching this.
I've also got some thoughts about Sisko. It seems that in this season he doesn't get to do a lot--usually about 2 lines of dialogue. In this one Sisko's 2 lines were a little strange. He did that Crazy Sisko smile for a reason that I can't really guess at.
Looking at it so far, Sisko hasn't been in DS9 much this season.
Way of the Warrior: He's got a central role
The Visitor: You know how I feel about this one, but when you look at it, he's not in it all that much. It isn't a "Sisko" episode, it's a Jake episode.
Hippocratic Oath: Bashir/O'Brien--not much Sisko
Indiscretion: Kira/Dukat--again, not much Sisko
Rejoined: Has I think one scene, where he gives Dax advice
Starship Down: Is in a semi-conscious daze for most of his part of the story
Little Green Men: 1 line, I think
The Sword of Kahless: 2 lines, max
There's something strange going on when you're a third of the way through the season and Rom has gotten more meaningful development than the captain.
I know it's an ensemble cast, but I can't think of any stretch like that in TNG, VOY, or ENT. Does that say something about the production team's assessment of Brooks' acting? I don't know. But Captain Sisko still seems to be a very distant character.
He doesn't seem that important to most of the stories. Picard, even when he wasn't onscreen, seemed to have a presence. Janeway likewise. It's hard for me to articulate, but it sometimes feels like Sisko's almost superfluous to the action. He doesn't get to do much of anything that matters.
Anyone else pick up on this? I'm almost at the halfway point of the series, and I'm still waiting for Sisko to develop a presence.
Anyway, this episode was standard QuestTrek. It was better done in episodes like "Gambit." Gutsy choice to allow the characters to get greedy and possessive over the sword without any technobabble influence. It reminded my wife of Lord of the Rings.
My favorite thing about it was John Colicos, who was outstanding again as Kor. He seems to be able to pull off mixing the epic, stylized acting with more natural, spontaneous acting better than either of the two regulars here. I think he steals the show.
It's always fun to see groups of warriors fighting each other with over-sized bladed weapons without spilling a single drop of blood. It's the neatest sword-fighting I've ever seen.
This wasn't an awful episode by any stretch of the imagination, but, outside of letting the characters show real human flaws without needing an alien influence, it didn't do that much for me.
"The Sword of Kahless"
This is an odd episode that made me think about some of the weaknesses in the main DS9 cast.
Before I go on, keep in mind that this is all just my personal perspective. I don't claim any great insight into television production or acting. I'm not saying that I could do better. I'm just saying that, as a viewer, this is how I feel. I also don't have any personal animus towards anyone involved with the show--I've seen some posters take their criticisms of actors and production people to very, very personal levels. They're all professionals who know, on some level, what they're doing. I'm sure if I ever got the chance to meet any of them I'd have something nice to say.
Here goes: the problem with the cast as I see it is that you've got two sets of actors, or at least approaches. Half of the cast tackles everything in a stylized, unnatural way that comes across as ponderous, and the other half is casual, almost glib.
Here's how I break it down:
PONDEROUS
Avery Brooks--Sisko
Nana Visitor--Kira
Michael Dorn--Worf
GLIB
Terry Farrell--Dax
Alexander Siddig--Bashir
Cirroc Lofton--Jake
Armin Shimerman--Quark
Rene Auberjonois' Odo is somewhere in the middle: he sometimes does the quick banter with Quark and gets off some good zingers, while at other times he's pretty stylized in his speaking.
Most of TNG was the more stylized approach. Since the only people who fired off zingers were guest stars like Whoppi Goldberg, it worked pretty well.
But in DS9 you get real a real style clash. This episode is a great example. You get the very formal, slow-speaking Worf and the casual Dax as the regulars who carry it, and it almost seems like they're not in the same room.
So that's what I was thinking about as I was watching this.
I've also got some thoughts about Sisko. It seems that in this season he doesn't get to do a lot--usually about 2 lines of dialogue. In this one Sisko's 2 lines were a little strange. He did that Crazy Sisko smile for a reason that I can't really guess at.
Looking at it so far, Sisko hasn't been in DS9 much this season.
Way of the Warrior: He's got a central role
The Visitor: You know how I feel about this one, but when you look at it, he's not in it all that much. It isn't a "Sisko" episode, it's a Jake episode.
Hippocratic Oath: Bashir/O'Brien--not much Sisko
Indiscretion: Kira/Dukat--again, not much Sisko
Rejoined: Has I think one scene, where he gives Dax advice
Starship Down: Is in a semi-conscious daze for most of his part of the story
Little Green Men: 1 line, I think
The Sword of Kahless: 2 lines, max
There's something strange going on when you're a third of the way through the season and Rom has gotten more meaningful development than the captain.
I know it's an ensemble cast, but I can't think of any stretch like that in TNG, VOY, or ENT. Does that say something about the production team's assessment of Brooks' acting? I don't know. But Captain Sisko still seems to be a very distant character.
He doesn't seem that important to most of the stories. Picard, even when he wasn't onscreen, seemed to have a presence. Janeway likewise. It's hard for me to articulate, but it sometimes feels like Sisko's almost superfluous to the action. He doesn't get to do much of anything that matters.
Anyone else pick up on this? I'm almost at the halfway point of the series, and I'm still waiting for Sisko to develop a presence.
Anyway, this episode was standard QuestTrek. It was better done in episodes like "Gambit." Gutsy choice to allow the characters to get greedy and possessive over the sword without any technobabble influence. It reminded my wife of Lord of the Rings.
My favorite thing about it was John Colicos, who was outstanding again as Kor. He seems to be able to pull off mixing the epic, stylized acting with more natural, spontaneous acting better than either of the two regulars here. I think he steals the show.
It's always fun to see groups of warriors fighting each other with over-sized bladed weapons without spilling a single drop of blood. It's the neatest sword-fighting I've ever seen.
This wasn't an awful episode by any stretch of the imagination, but, outside of letting the characters show real human flaws without needing an alien influence, it didn't do that much for me.
It's funny & very watchable. Esp. until the universal translators came online.
Thing is, Picard and Janeway were starship captains on shows centered around starships. They have to have a presence because that's who their characters are, and thus will almost always have an influence or input on the day-to-day going-ons of what's happening on said starships.
Sisko, despite now having a rank of Captain, isn't the captain of DS9. He's more like a mayor of a small town, so when something major goes down, you can bet your bottom dollar he's going to have a major role in the action; however, if an episode's events are relatively self-contained (much less occurring mostly off-station), as most episodes focusing on one or two members of the ensamble are, then chances are Sisko's not going to have much influence on said events, simply for the fact it's out of his hands.
Of course, as the Emissary, it can be argued that Sisko should have more influence on Bajoran stories, but the simple truth is the writers still hadn't *quite* gotten around to dealing with that aspect of Sisko's character yet. Soon, though, quite soon.
Would you really call Kira ponderous? At least all the time? I would think she had the Odo back and forthness at times.
As for Dax, I always thought there was something a little stiff about her acting. I don't know how to describe it, she carried her presence well, but I don't think she had much flexibility, and at times her character had a kind of obviousness to it.
Sisko definitely was an odd captain in comparison to the others. He had a much slower development, and he wasn't always the main character.
As for Dax, I always thought there was something a little stiff about her acting. I don't know how to describe it, she carried her presence well, but I don't think she had much flexibility, and at times her character had a kind of obviousness to it.
Sisko definitely was an odd captain in comparison to the others. He had a much slower development, and he wasn't always the main character.
The thing with Kirk in TOS, Picard in TNG, Janeway in VOY and even Archer in ENT was that they all needed to have the lion's share of development (usually shared with only one or two other characters - Spock, Data, Seven/The Doctor, T'Pol/Trip) because they were, for all intents and purposes, the star of the show. Here on DS9, however, that isn't the case. Brooks isn't the star. He's simply one of the ensemble.
I guess one way to look at it is that all the Trek shows had ensemble casts, but the captain was always a "first among equals" character. Sisko, however, doesn't get that privilege. He's not a "first among equals"; he's just one of the equals. As a result, the bulk of the character development in the stories is much more spread around than in the other shows. Sisko simply isn't designed to be a polarizing figure to wrap it around. He's very much intended to be just one of many characters.
This lack of focus on one or two "main" characters is one of DS9's greatest strengths, IMHO. TOS, VOY and to a certain ENT all suffered from focusing too much on certain characters - seriously, what are Chevok's main characteristics, or Kim's or Mayweather's? By not focusing almost exclusively on those at "the top," like the captain, DS9 was able to give us a whole slew of developed characters. It's great that a character like Rom has so much development. In fact, there are recurring characters on DS9 that are more developed than many "secondary" full-time cast members on some of the other shows - I'm thinking of characters like Tom Paris and Beverly Crusher.
That's one of the reasons why DS9 feels more "real" to me, the characters have their own lives and their own stories and they don't need to revolve around official station functions. On the other shows, even episodes focusing on a particular character tended to have a b-story that tied that character into whatever adventure the ship was experiencing that week. On the other shows, more scenes took place on the bridge than anywhere else, the bridge was the centre of those shows. On DS9, more scenes took place on the promenade than in ops, the promenade was the centre of the show, which helped make DS9 feel more like a community.
Anything that brings back a classic Trek actor, I'll take.
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