You're right. A truly redeemed Dukat would feel unworthy of Kira.
Shatnertage's Mostly-1st-Time Watch Thread
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Agreed.
That's continued in Change of Heart and Time's Orphan. It seems like just as Worf and Jadzia were beginning to really work well together, she has to go and get herself killed.
I actually believe I've seen a vid on YT where Nana Visitor talks about having shouting matches with the writer or someone about a possible Dukat/Kira romance. Apparently, someone at the show was pushing for it, and she was adamantly opposed. Thank goodness Visitor was enough in tune with her character to know it would be completely OOC and integrity-destroying to have Kira fall for Dukat. Of course, the powers that be did sort of get her back when it's later revealed that
Dukat had a relationship with Kira's mother. Making his interest in Kira even more creepy.
Indeed. When Kira replied to Dukat's prediction about Bajor and Cardassia being eventual friends with "Bajor and Cardassia? Perhaps. You and me? Never", she meant it about as firmly as you could mean anything. Dukat would have to change an awful lot before Kira having any respect or fondness for him would be plausible to me.
I have watched...
"Statistical Probabilities"
This one felt like a great idea that lost something in the execution. Part of it might be that the guy who plays Jack plays him way, way, way, way too hyper. Yes, I know he's supposed to be unbalanced, but compare Jack to the "soulless minions of orthodoxy" guy, who wasn't just a bundle of tics but, when he started speaking full sentences, left no doubt that he was wonderfully insane.
Or Dukat coming slowly unglued during "A Sacrifice of Angels," at least before he becomes completely unglued.
And he kind of looked like Lazarus from "The Alternative Factor," which is a Trek experience I never want to relive.
So they bring the island of misfit augments to DS9, where they discover psychohistory and learn that the Federation is doomed...mostly. I can live with that, and it raises good questions of freewill vs. determinism in a very Trek-like way. Of course everyone wants to soldier on even though the odds are against them.
For a moment, the episode even steps into my professional work, as Quark and Bashir have a debate about what people play negative expectation games. Thank God they don't go into classic psychoanalytic theories (which are pretty twisted), but instead speak in vague generalizations. Suffice it to say, for some personalities, the game isn't fun unless the deck is stacked against you. The whole exchange would have for the kernel of a nice paper on popular representations of gambling in sci fi. But right now, I'm here to talk about the episode.
The Augment Gang tries to sell out the Federation to the Dominion, but gets stopped by Odo in a beautiful scene. I love the Weyoun/Damar dynamic. Damar's kind of the man now, but not really, and he knows it.
The thing I don't get is that at least one Federation member planet, Betazed, is full of people who are at the very least empaths. Why not just have some of them on hand to greet the Dominion delegation? And if what the Augments do is just a matter of picking up on little behavioral cues, certainly a Vulcan would be able to do the same, or just a well-trained human behavioral psychologist.
By analogy, just because someone has better reflexes and strength doesn't necessarily mean they'll be a better competitor in a specific sport. Even something like mixed martial arts, which would seem to rely on brute strength and explosive quickness, is actually much more about technique and training. So I don't get that just being really smart, but apparently raised in a stimulus-poor environment, would make the Augment Gang world-beaters.
There was some good stuff here, particularly between Bashir and O'Brien, but on the whole the was a draft or two away from being great. Should have gotten the augments in on the re-write.
"Statistical Probabilities"
This one felt like a great idea that lost something in the execution. Part of it might be that the guy who plays Jack plays him way, way, way, way too hyper. Yes, I know he's supposed to be unbalanced, but compare Jack to the "soulless minions of orthodoxy" guy, who wasn't just a bundle of tics but, when he started speaking full sentences, left no doubt that he was wonderfully insane.
Or Dukat coming slowly unglued during "A Sacrifice of Angels," at least before he becomes completely unglued.
And he kind of looked like Lazarus from "The Alternative Factor," which is a Trek experience I never want to relive.
So they bring the island of misfit augments to DS9, where they discover psychohistory and learn that the Federation is doomed...mostly. I can live with that, and it raises good questions of freewill vs. determinism in a very Trek-like way. Of course everyone wants to soldier on even though the odds are against them.
For a moment, the episode even steps into my professional work, as Quark and Bashir have a debate about what people play negative expectation games. Thank God they don't go into classic psychoanalytic theories (which are pretty twisted), but instead speak in vague generalizations. Suffice it to say, for some personalities, the game isn't fun unless the deck is stacked against you. The whole exchange would have for the kernel of a nice paper on popular representations of gambling in sci fi. But right now, I'm here to talk about the episode.
The Augment Gang tries to sell out the Federation to the Dominion, but gets stopped by Odo in a beautiful scene. I love the Weyoun/Damar dynamic. Damar's kind of the man now, but not really, and he knows it.
The thing I don't get is that at least one Federation member planet, Betazed, is full of people who are at the very least empaths. Why not just have some of them on hand to greet the Dominion delegation? And if what the Augments do is just a matter of picking up on little behavioral cues, certainly a Vulcan would be able to do the same, or just a well-trained human behavioral psychologist.
By analogy, just because someone has better reflexes and strength doesn't necessarily mean they'll be a better competitor in a specific sport. Even something like mixed martial arts, which would seem to rely on brute strength and explosive quickness, is actually much more about technique and training. So I don't get that just being really smart, but apparently raised in a stimulus-poor environment, would make the Augment Gang world-beaters.
There was some good stuff here, particularly between Bashir and O'Brien, but on the whole the was a draft or two away from being great. Should have gotten the augments in on the re-write.
A lot of people seem to think the Jack Pack (as I often hear them called) are the best thing since sliced bread. To me, the whole thing came off utterly ridiculous for all of the reasons you said. It's like a bad attempt at a comedy episode--except they're trying to be serious. I guess that's how a lot of people feel about the Ferengi episodes (most of which never bothered me that badly).
I certainly don't think the Jack Pack is the greatest thing the show ever did, but I don't find them particularly awful either. They're just sort of there for me, I suppose.
I do think, however, that it would have been a lot better if they had stuck to their original idea for the character of Jack - a deeply violent man who believes himself far superior to everyone; basically a Khan without the cunning or muscles. Instead, we got a guy who basically drinks way too much coffee.
I do think, however, that it would have been a lot better if they had stuck to their original idea for the character of Jack - a deeply violent man who believes himself far superior to everyone; basically a Khan without the cunning or muscles. Instead, we got a guy who basically drinks way too much coffee.
Jack: Hmm, hmm? Are you saying I'm hyper, hmm hmm? They locked me up because I'm too smart you see! *runs around room and does back flip*
^ Yes, I think that episode would have been much better if they'd have played Jack as more of a chess player type who's manipulating everyone around him and has a genuine aura of menace. I'm thinking someone along the lines of Josh Holloway (Sawyer from Lost). Give him a scene where he beats the crap out of a guard--or better yet, a Jem'Hadar, and you'd have a great character.
But now I'm going to talk about...
"The Magnificent Ferengi"
So the title is based on "The Magnificent Seven," but the plot isn't? But the actors watched it and based their performances off it it?
From the blurb, I thought this one was going to be painful. I even pegged the over/under for how long it took Mrs. Shatnertage to throw in the towel (as it turns out, I should have bet the under). But it was actually a fun episode, where we see that there are many different kinds of heroism.
Iggy Pop as Yelgrun was incredible, and Keevan was even slimier than when we saw him last, if that's possible.
Brunt got fired, huh? Tough for him.
A totally unrelated question: Where is Dukat at this point? The last I saw him, he was whimpering in a corner. I might have missed a line of dialog that clarified his status. I thought that he might be the prisoner they were exchanging. Is he still on DS9? Being debriefed by Starfleet Intelligence? Turned over the the Klingons? I know he shows up again eventually, but if they've said onscreen where he is right now and I missed it, please share.
Keevan's reanimated corpse being a pawn in the exchange seems to me to be his just desserts. After all, he sold out his Jem'Hadars just to save his own skin, so it's a fitting irony that his body becomes the currency in a transaction to save someone else.
This was far from awful, although we did have Rom moaning "Moogie" a few times. I liked it.
But now I'm going to talk about...
"The Magnificent Ferengi"
So the title is based on "The Magnificent Seven," but the plot isn't? But the actors watched it and based their performances off it it?
From the blurb, I thought this one was going to be painful. I even pegged the over/under for how long it took Mrs. Shatnertage to throw in the towel (as it turns out, I should have bet the under). But it was actually a fun episode, where we see that there are many different kinds of heroism.
Iggy Pop as Yelgrun was incredible, and Keevan was even slimier than when we saw him last, if that's possible.
Brunt got fired, huh? Tough for him.
A totally unrelated question: Where is Dukat at this point? The last I saw him, he was whimpering in a corner. I might have missed a line of dialog that clarified his status. I thought that he might be the prisoner they were exchanging. Is he still on DS9? Being debriefed by Starfleet Intelligence? Turned over the the Klingons? I know he shows up again eventually, but if they've said onscreen where he is right now and I missed it, please share.
Keevan's reanimated corpse being a pawn in the exchange seems to me to be his just desserts. After all, he sold out his Jem'Hadars just to save his own skin, so it's a fitting irony that his body becomes the currency in a transaction to save someone else.
This was far from awful, although we did have Rom moaning "Moogie" a few times. I liked it.
Shatnertage you gave me the idea and I couldn't get it out of my head.
I give you: Hedley Damar!
I give you: Hedley Damar!
To me this was an episode that was important in the development of the Bashir character. Somewhere along the line, probably due to a feeling of cynicism and fatalism associated with being involved in a long, bloody war, Julian began to give himself over to his genetically-enhanced intellect and bury his enthusiasm, optimism and spirit.
He convinced himself that everything could be explained away with logic and math. This was a dark turn for him.
He was there, on the bridge of the Defiant when they entered the wormhole in "Sacrifice of Angels." He should have understood that no one - no matter how brilliant - could have predicted what happened there between Sisko and the Prophets and what happened to the enemy that day.
He was also in a near-hopeless situation in a prison camp and escaped.
Yet he fell back on pure logic and mathematical forecasting to determine the outcome of the war.
He was once a fine young doctor that believed he could save a whole population despite the odds being against him ("The Quickening") and he had devolved into a cynic who quoted doomful odds to his shipmates during missions and tried to convince his Captain to surrender to the enemy.
His story served as a strong statement on the many ways a person's circumstances and life experiences can change him.
Well, I found out where Dukat is...he and Sisko are dancing a...
"Waltz"
Mind blown.
That's my two-word review of this episode.
It's another one of my favorites, the psychological sketch. We get to see into the mind of Dukat, and it isn't pretty.
One quibble: Dukat thanks Sisko for taking care of his daughter, but Sisko never mentions that his son was on Terok Nor with Dukat for a few months, and neither does Duakt.
But even the tease is awesome. Dukat's reaction to talking about Ziyal is brilliant.
Once they're on the planet, it looks like it might be a typical "two people trapped on a planet epiosde." That seems to be a common Trek trope; in fact, if I had the energy I would do some research and find out exactly how many episodes have revolved around two people trapped on a planet. I know in DS9 we've had "Kira"/Odo and Quark/Odo so far. Maybe that's why they asked Rene Auberjonois to direct.
They end up in a cave (again), but it doesn't really matter, because the setting isn't important; what the characters say is.
When we first see Weyoun, it's possible for a moment that Dukat's been deceiving Sisko and they're really in the Dominion's hands. But as Weyoun gets uncharacteristically animated, I figure out that Dukat's gone all Tyler Durden a split second before the show tells us he has. Thank you, show, for letting the viewer feel smart! I love it when they do that.
From there, Dukat's Greek chorus just gets better and better. Nana Visitor just about steals the show.
Again, not much happens here, but the dialog is great, and both actors are phenomenal. This is the best work I've seen from Avery Brooks yet.
And, like any good villain in a serialized story, they let Dukat get away.
So I think that "Waltz" has dethroned "Duet" as my favorite non-comedy DS9 episode.
"Waltz"
Mind blown.
That's my two-word review of this episode.
It's another one of my favorites, the psychological sketch. We get to see into the mind of Dukat, and it isn't pretty.
One quibble: Dukat thanks Sisko for taking care of his daughter, but Sisko never mentions that his son was on Terok Nor with Dukat for a few months, and neither does Duakt.
But even the tease is awesome. Dukat's reaction to talking about Ziyal is brilliant.
Once they're on the planet, it looks like it might be a typical "two people trapped on a planet epiosde." That seems to be a common Trek trope; in fact, if I had the energy I would do some research and find out exactly how many episodes have revolved around two people trapped on a planet. I know in DS9 we've had "Kira"/Odo and Quark/Odo so far. Maybe that's why they asked Rene Auberjonois to direct.
They end up in a cave (again), but it doesn't really matter, because the setting isn't important; what the characters say is.
When we first see Weyoun, it's possible for a moment that Dukat's been deceiving Sisko and they're really in the Dominion's hands. But as Weyoun gets uncharacteristically animated, I figure out that Dukat's gone all Tyler Durden a split second before the show tells us he has. Thank you, show, for letting the viewer feel smart! I love it when they do that.
From there, Dukat's Greek chorus just gets better and better. Nana Visitor just about steals the show.
Again, not much happens here, but the dialog is great, and both actors are phenomenal. This is the best work I've seen from Avery Brooks yet.
And, like any good villain in a serialized story, they let Dukat get away.
So I think that "Waltz" has dethroned "Duet" as my favorite non-comedy DS9 episode.
I loved "Waltz," and I'm glad to see you did too. Opinions seem to be split on this episode. But to me, Marc Alaimo can sell all sorts of stuff with his acting.
Marc Alaimo, THANK YOU.
That's really all I can say.
That's really all I can say.
Agreed. It's also easily my favorite comedic episode in the series, possibly in the entire franchise - as well as in my top ten of DS9.
On paper, it should have been a complete train wreck of an episode - every single recurring Ferengi character appears, excpet for Zek (though he was meant to be in this episode, but Wallace Shawn's schedule wouldn't permit it). Yet, they somehow managed to pull off an amazingly funny and serious episode at the same time. Even Ishka's antics, which do somewhat get on my nerves even here, are tolerable.
Seriously, how did they do that?!
I knew I like you for a reason, Shatnertage!
Waltz is easily my third favorite episode, behind an upcoming one and Sacrifice of Angels. Alaimo and Brooks really knock it out of the park with this one.And, I have to say, thank God the writers finally decided to strip away all the layers and show Dukat for who he truly is. You might not know this, but this episode was mostly a reaction on the part of the writers to a large segment of the show's fanbase. At the time there were a lot of people who had become so enamored with Dukat that they were actually defending him and his conduct during the Bajoran Occupation in chat-rooms around the net. I've heard of some people who were saying things like.... "Well of course he tried to save lives when he was Prefect. After all, only five million Bajorans were killed on his watch. That only comes to 500,000 a year."
Dukat is an evil man. Let's consider a few facts.... 1.) the Occupation lasted between forty and fifty years, 2.) Dukat was Prefect for the last ten years of it, 3.) a total of around ten millions Bajorans died during the entire length of it. That means that Dukat's tenure saw an 300% INCREASE in the number of killings per year. Yeah, he was a real humanitarian.
Yes, he has a lot of personal charm and charisma. Apparently that's enough to convince people that's he's not an murdering sociopath with delusions of "the white man's burden." Like Nerys said, opinions on this episode are split. Some feel it massively betrays Dukat's character. But, I'm of the opinion that it only shows us what was there all along, hiding behind his smile.
Waltz is a great episode, it's like Duet but this time the guy actually is a war criminal. But I find myself agreeing with sfdebris' review of the episode, this was the natural conclusion of Dukat's arc. He started out as a villain, became a reluctant ally, went through a period of seeming redemption, sold everyone out in order to attain power, then he lost everything, including his sanity. This episode was his trial and he was found guilty. Sisko was the judge, the audience were the jury, but there was no executioner. Even though his arc is essentially at an end, Dukat lives on to cause trouble another day, which is understandable as the writers didn't want to lose such an interesting and well-acted character. But at the same time this episode strips Dukat of his nuance.
So its a great episode, but its legacy is controversial.
So its a great episode, but its legacy is controversial.
YMMV, but I love what they do with Dukat from this point.
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