Shatnertage's Mostly-1st-Time Watch Thread

[Shatnertage]

Trying not to founder on...

"Rocks and Shoals"

Wow, this one is dark. I really, really like the glimpse into what Kira's doing here. As soon as Yassim asked what it would take to wake her up, I knew she was headed for some kind of self-immolation. But I guess the hanging was the most filmable thing they could come up with. They're taking Kira into a very interesting place here.

The A story is even darker, with the "noble enemy" Jem'Hadar being sold out by their Vorta handler, Keevan, who might be the slimiest Vorta we've met so far, which is really saying something. I love the exchange between Nog and Garak ("There's hope for you yet"). On the surface, this is a typical trapped-on-a-planet story, with a lot of hanging out in caves. Are there a lot more caves in space? Because I couldn't tell you where the nearest cave is from where I'm sitting. Maybe I just don't know how to find them.

Remata'Klan is pretty intense, and a good foil for Sisko. They do a good job of paralleling him and Kira, with her waking up to the dangers of following the order of things, and Remata'Klan willingly embracing it, even knowing that it's wrong.

Powerful stuff, and good drama for Trek.

 

[Shatnertage]

More great paralleling with...

"Sons and Daughters"

Alexander shows up on the Rotarian (I know that's not the name, but it's how I think of it) and Ziyal draws Dukat and Kira closer together on the station.

I still don't get why Alexander is rebelling against his dad by doing what his dad wanted him to do, and I'm willing to accept an older Alexander for the sake of the drama here. This is a Worf episode, but Martok steals the show. I love that character, and I absolutely loved the "I gave you one, and you failed!" line. Brilliant.

While it was good to see that a main character isn't always a saint, but they sure make it hard to like Worf. He's either a deadbeat dad or a rigid, uptight boyfriend most of the time.

Another great scene was Kira initially admiring the dress that Dukat sent over, then realizing what she was doing and recoiling. Poor Ziyal. Was anyone else as creeped out as I was that Dukat gave the dress he intended for Kira to his daughter?

More really good stuff here--this Dominion War arc is pretty solid.

 

[MacLeod]

For me out of the six episode arc "A time to Stand" to "Sacrifice of Angels", the middle two episodes "Sons .... " & "Behind the Lines" are the weaker of the six.

 

[Shatnertage]

I held the book so tightly in my hands,
I saw your picture, heard you call my name
There was something strange, I could not look away
I wanted to be there, I wanted to go

You gave me no warning
You gave no reason
But I was with you
Right by your side
Just give me the strength, and I will help you
And they can try their hardest, cos they don't frighten me

It is written in the book

Yes, they really did name a DS9 episode after a Genesis song. That song's title doesn't appear in the lyrics, but it is...

"Behind the Lines"

If you think about it, the lyrics to that song sort of describe what's happening on the station. They could be Odo singing to the Female Changeling Without a Name (FCWAN) or Kira singing to Odo:

It is hotter than I've known before, but I feel so cold, and I don't
know why
But if the fire within your heart can beat the storm
Then I really believe, you could make it right

Ooh the time has come now
We must show our feelings
But I'm looking right through you
And your heart is empty

Whatever happened to you it's too late to change now
There's nowhere you can run to, no place to hide
Ah you let me down!

...but wait a minute, I don't understand
It's getting stronger, so grab my hand
Don't wanna leave you, don't wanna go
But I'm losing all control
Can't you see me? I'm slipping away
I can only stay if you've the will to keep me here

The B story was about Sisko getting promoted and Dax taking control of the Defiant. I'm not sure exactly what qualifies her to command the ship, but we've always known that Starfleet is full of generalists, so that's really not that much of a stretch. Sisko's bummed about becoming a desk jockey. Good stuff.

The A story is great, though. Odo's got this thing with FCWAN where he just can't stop linking with her even though he knows he probably shouldn't. I think most of us have been there. It's like she's a combination booty call/drug pusher for him.

I like Nog and Kira's plan to sow dissension between the Cardassians and the Jem'Hadars. And that Damar likes to drink, doesn't he? Quark's drunken speech is a masterpiece. It's still funny to see people getting drunk on Star Trek.

Odo really takes a sharp turn here, though. At first I thought that post-linking Odo was actually FCWAN, and she'd betray them, but it really was Odo. Something to think about. Hell of an acting job there.

I'm liking this arc.

Now I'm all caught up, so you'll be getting my reactions in real time.

 

[BlueStuff]

Season 6 is a great one. Some of the finest episodes in the series. What is your favorite episode so far, Shatnertage? Of the entire show, I mean.

 

[Shatnertage]

^ Here's a quick top ten, in chronological (not quality) order:

1. Duet
2. Profit and Loss
3. The Wire
4. The House of Quark
5. Civil Defense
6. The Visitor
7. Trials and Tribbleations
8. The Darkness and the Light
9. Children of Time
10. The current arc

 

[Worf'sParmach]

"Rocks and Shoals"

...

Powerful stuff, and good drama for Trek.

I loved this episode so much that when it aired I (literally) burned my house down over it. Parents were gone, I started cooking in the kitchen, ran back into the living room to see how it was going to end and ended up forgetting I'd left the stove on. Whole first floor of my house went up in flames. Yeah, it was that good. I made up some excuse as to why I'd left the kitchen, to this day my parents don't know it was to go watch Star Trek

More great paralleling with...

"Sons and Daughters"

I still don't get why Alexander is rebelling against his dad by doing what his dad wanted him to do, and I'm willing to accept an older Alexander for the sake of the drama here. This is a Worf episode, but Martok steals the show. I love that character, and I absolutely loved the "I gave you one, and you failed!" line. Brilliant.

While it was good to see that a main character isn't always a saint, but they sure make it hard to like Worf. He's either a deadbeat dad or a rigid, uptight boyfriend most of the time.

Martok seems to always steal the show, I think he's more Worf's better half than Jadzia. Looking back, especially as the 6th and 7th season go on, I think I like DS9 Worf because of Martok.

That said, I didn't like the main storyline here. Being a TNG fan first, it annoyed me that they completely dismissed all the character development Worf and Alexander had back on the Enterprise. They completly swept Alexander under the rug when they brought Worf to DS9. I guess there would have been too many single dads on the station.

Throughout TNG's 5th, 6th and 7th season, we saw Worf struggle with being a father but by the end he'd grown to be a pretty good one. TNG's "Firstborn" established that Alexander gew up with no interest in the military and the episode ended with Worf being accepting of that and being adamant that Alexander belongs with him. So it always bothered me that DS9 just threw all that out the window. I think the only reason it gets addressed at all is because Worf was getting married, and continuing to ignore his son while starting a family with someone else would have made him the ultimate douche.

As far as being a rigid, uptight boyfriend I agree with that also, but I think this season Worf and Jadzia start to really gel and they have some very natural scenes together that make them really work.

 

[Admiral Shran]

"A Time to Stand"

First, let me reflect back on season 5. It was a strong season, with some notable misfires (chiefly "Let He Who is Without Sin" and the Ferengi episodes). I'd say it's one of the stronger overall seasons in Trek history, up there with 3-5 of TNG,, 3-4 of ENT, and 4-6 of VOY. I'd put it close to the top of that list.

And now, IMHO, an even better one begins. Season Six is definitely one of Trek's best seasons ever. And this episode starts it off right.

The opening shot of the Federation/Klingon fleet in shambles is a great counterpoint to how Season Five ended.

 

[Admiral Shran]

"Rocks and Shoals"

Powerful stuff, and good drama for Trek.

That it is. One of DS9's best episodes. Though, I do think that Sacrifice of Angels is the best in this particular arc.

Vedek Yassim's "self-immolation" steals the episode for me. WOW! Talk about powerful drama.

 

[Admiral Shran]

"Sons and Daughters"

I still don't get why Alexander is rebelling against his dad by doing what his dad wanted him to do

The only reasons I can think of are....

1.) He's an idiot
2.) He has a death wish, which sort of makes #1 redundant.

This episode is only saved by the station plot. They turn Alexander into a total incompetent and I don't like it. I just don't see how he could be so thoroughly inexperienced and unprepared for what he's agreed to do. He seriously makes Neelix look overqualified, especially in the scene where he can't even hold on to a bat'leth. I could have done without this sub-plot.

The station story, however, is very good. Great stuff between Kira and Dukat. Ziyal also delivers some really great scenes. Though I do agree that Dukat thinking "well, I tried to use this to get into Kira's pants, so now I'll re-gift it to my daughter" is pretty high up on the creep-o-meter. But, hey, that's Dukat for you.

So, it still manages to be a good episode, but it's easily the weakest of the arc.

 

[JaxsBrokenHeart]

Maybe they felt they needed a Worf story for this arc, but I would have much preferred a story about Ben and Jake respectively trying to handle being separated and their respective worries about each other during the war. Maybe even with the Siskos forming an unlikely bond with Nog and Rom respectively who are struggling with the same thing. Could have made for some good character work, and would have fit with the theme of the episode.

 

[Admiral Shran]

Maybe they felt they need a Worf story for this arc

I can certainly see why that would be a reason for the Worf/Alexander story. After all, Worf had barely had a presence in A Time to Stand and wasn't in Rocks and Shoals at all. They probably felt they needed to throw him something by this point.

That being said, I would have liked to see what you purpose with Sisko/Nog and Jake/Rom instead.


And, I almost forgot....

"Behind the Lines"

Odo really takes a sharp turn here, though. At first I thought that post-linking Odo was actually FCWAN, and she'd betray them, but it really was Odo. Something to think about. Hell of an acting job there.

Odo's betrayal of Rom and Kira here was really shocking to me when I first saw this episode. I thought it was a very risky move for them to make one of the main characters so dark (and possibly?) villainous and I applaud them to this day for doing so. The closest any other Trek series ever came to this kind of turn of events was Data joining with Lore at the end of Descent, Part I.

 

[MacLeod]

It's been several years since I say "Descent" but wasn't Data being more controlled by Lore, whilst with Odo is was more of a conscience choice?

 

[MrJ]

It's been several years since I say "Descent" but wasn't Data being more controlled by Lore, whilst with Odo is was more of a conscience choice?

Indeed it was, as was said earlier, the Female Changeling was influencing Odo in a sort of drug/sex addiction, he was still in control and responsible for his actions, but just being heavily influenced by her.
Whereas Data was pretty much being remote controlled by Lore, and not in control at all, so all was forgiven when it was over. Not so for Odo.



The only part of the six episode story arc in the start of season 6 that I didn’t really like was the “Son” part of the “Sons and Daughters” episode.

I would say that season 6 is probably DS9's best season. DS9's seasons 5 and 6 were the best years of Star Trek in general. DS9's 7th season certainly wasn't bad, in fact it was the best finale season of any Trek series. But season 7 just wasn't quite up there with season 6 and 5. So unfortunately, that means that season 6 of DS9 was not just the pinnacle of DS9, but for the Star Trek franchise in general. After season 6 there was a very small, (an almost immeasurably tiny) drop off in quality. And once DS9 ended that really was the beginning of the end of Star Trek, nothing Voyager, and certainly not Enterprise, did ever achieved the quality of DS9's 6th season.

 

[Shatnertage]

I now lean that fortune...

"Favor the Bold"

We got a title drop in this episode, which doesn't happen too often. That's something different.

On the whole, I wasn't wowed by this one. It felt like a lot of padding, almost like Part III of an old 4-parter on Doctor Who. Instead of escaping and getting recaptured, though, they just reiterated what we already knew. Yes, we see Odo falling further under the spell of FCWAN, but it's nothing that couldn't have been handled with faster pacing in the last episode.

Don't get me wrong, it wasn't a bad episode by any stretch of the imagination. It just felt like a bit of treading water compared to what came before (and hopefully what follows).

 

[MrJ]

Oh yeah, Favor the Bold I remember that one.


As much as I loved Babylon 5 and 24 (or at least the first few seasons of 24), those shows, and most other serialized story arc based shows often had "filler" episodes. Episodes where not much happens and the point of the episode is to either recap what has happened, or to set up pieces for the next episode. DS9, as serialized as it got, didn't have nearly as many filler episodes as B5 or 24 had. "Favor the Bold" was one however.
　
If memory serves, “Favor the Bold” wasn't in the DS9 producers original plans, after "Behind the Lines" the next episode was supposed to be "Sacrifice of Angels". While writing the Dominion Occupation story arc they realized that there was way too much going on in “Sacrifice of Angels”, and Paramount wouldn't let them make a 2 hour TV movie so "Favor the Bold" was created. Out of the 6 episode Dominion Occupation episodes, "Favor the Bold" is the only one that that has a traditional Star Trek cliff hanger ending. With the other episodes from "A Time to Stand" to "Favor the Bold" after one episode ended the next one took place about a week later. Where "Favor the Bold" ended "Sacrifice of Angels" starts. Essentially, "Favor the Bold" and "Sacrifice of Angels" are one episode, broken into two parts.

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

Another great scene was Kira initially admiring the dress that Dukat sent over, then realizing what she was doing and recoiling. Poor Ziyal. Was anyone else as creeped out as I was that Dukat gave the dress he intended for Kira to his daughter?

That whole thing with Kira admiring the dress was one of my favorites scenes. It shows how insidious Dukat can be. I loved that Kira having that moment was the breaking point for her. The smile, and then the look she gets on her face as she realizes exactly what she's doing. And yes, it was creepy he gave Ziyal the dress he'd intended his would-be mistress to wear. Although his love for Ziyal remains one of the most genuine things about him, he is not above manipulating her as well.

 

[Admiral Shran]

If memory serves, “Favor the Bold” wasn't in the DS9 producers original plans, after "Behind the Lines" the next episode was supposed to be "Sacrifice of Angels". While writing the Dominion Occupation story arc they realized that there was way too much going on in “Sacrifice of Angels”, and Paramount wouldn't let them make a 2 hour TV movie so "Favor the Bold" was created.

That is, indeed, how it happened.

They simply wanted to do WAY too much stuff in Sacrifice of Angels (and they still do quite a bit) so it had to either be expanded into a 2 hour episode like The Way of the Warrior or split into two separate episodes.

Favor the Bold is still a damn fine episode, however. My favorite element of it is that Nog has the rest of his training waived is commissioned as a full officer.

I'm really looking forward to Shatnertage's review of Sacrifice of Angels, as it's my second favorite episode of the series.

 

[TheGodBen]

I like season 6, but I think it lacks the consistency of season 5 and once the occupation arc ends it feels a bit directionless. Season 5 felt like it was going somewhere, once Cardassia joined the Dominion there's a sense of things slowly building up to war, but season 6 just kind of stalls as though they were waiting until season 7 to finish up the story. Even though season 7 has a lot of fluff in the middle and some... questionable material regarding the Prophets, I think I might just prefer it because it builds up to the final chapter arc. That being said, season 6 does have plenty of great episodes, including my favourite in the whole show.

As for the occupation arc, it's arguably the high-point of the show. Other than the Alexander story it remains fairly consistent, and the Dominion occupying the station successfully shakes things up. I think it would have been good to have it go on even longer, perhaps for the entire first half of the season, but the writers had to fight Paramount for each and every episode so we're lucky that the arc lasted as long as it did.

 

[Shatnertage]

I've got definite thoughts on the end of the arc, but no time to write them right now. I'll see how exhausted I am tonight and try then.