My girlfriend and I have a running joke which involves excitedly calling out about the cave set every time we see it.
Shatnertage's Mostly-1st-Time Watch Thread
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My girlfriend and I have a running joke which involves excitedly calling out about the cave set every time we see it.
I really liked "The Assignment" but it could be a bit cheesy at times.
This episode always makes me think of the TNG episode were O'Brien, along with Troi and Data, were possessed by alien beings. Apparently, I was Keiko's turn this time. Had the show continued, I fully expected both Molly and Kirayoshi to be possessed by the devil or something. 
I think the "O'Brien Must Suffer" episodes work so well and are so emotionally compelling because he has more to lose than anyone else. When you watch them you're thinking "But what about his wife and kids?" Whereas is the same things happened to, say, Bashir, it's just not as impactful.
This episode always makes me think of the TNG episode were O'Brien, along with Troi and Data, were possessed by alien beings. Apparently, I was Keiko's turn this time. Had the show continued, I fully expected both Molly and Kirayoshi to be possessed by the devil or something.
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Rosalind Chao made Keiko memorable in this ep.
Now I've got a double-shot of DS9 for you. I start with...
"Trials and Tribble-ations"
This is what a valentine to the fans is supposed to be. I can only imagine how great it must have been back in 1996 to see Spock, Kirk, and the Enterprise on TV again. Technically, its a tour de force, with the TOS footage integrated seamlessly into the new material.
It's difficult to explain the fanboy joy I felt seeing the DS9 regulars edited into the shots from TOS. And the Enterprise was just gorgeous.
The story itself was tempered by some good humor throughout, from the Temporal Investigations agents (themselves a reference to X-Files) to everyone taking the piss out of Worf. For such a large and angry man, people do tend to take the piss out of him an awful lot.
It's a little bit troubling that one of the best episodes in DS9 isn't exploring strange new worlds but is just feeding off of the show's past. It's interesting to me that each Trek franchise went into the past of the show at least once. In TNG, you had McCoy in "Encounter" (which, again, is hard to convey just how cool that was when I saw it in 1987) and Scotty in "Relics." VOY had "Flashback." ENT had IAMD.
But I just loved this episode. A nice, light-hearted romp that doesn't take itself too seriously but still shows reverence for the original material, demonstrated in Sisko's meeting with Kirk. Great, great stuff.
Well, they're really firing on all cylinders now. Nowhere to go but up. Everyone's at the peak of their creative ability. I can't wait to see what a wondrous hour of television is in store for me...
"Trials and Tribble-ations"
This is what a valentine to the fans is supposed to be. I can only imagine how great it must have been back in 1996 to see Spock, Kirk, and the Enterprise on TV again. Technically, its a tour de force, with the TOS footage integrated seamlessly into the new material.
It's difficult to explain the fanboy joy I felt seeing the DS9 regulars edited into the shots from TOS. And the Enterprise was just gorgeous.
The story itself was tempered by some good humor throughout, from the Temporal Investigations agents (themselves a reference to X-Files) to everyone taking the piss out of Worf. For such a large and angry man, people do tend to take the piss out of him an awful lot.
It's a little bit troubling that one of the best episodes in DS9 isn't exploring strange new worlds but is just feeding off of the show's past. It's interesting to me that each Trek franchise went into the past of the show at least once. In TNG, you had McCoy in "Encounter" (which, again, is hard to convey just how cool that was when I saw it in 1987) and Scotty in "Relics." VOY had "Flashback." ENT had IAMD.
But I just loved this episode. A nice, light-hearted romp that doesn't take itself too seriously but still shows reverence for the original material, demonstrated in Sisko's meeting with Kirk. Great, great stuff.
Well, they're really firing on all cylinders now. Nowhere to go but up. Everyone's at the peak of their creative ability. I can't wait to see what a wondrous hour of television is in store for me...
And...this is what we got. I don't want to cast blame, so I'll just say...
"Let He Who Is Without Sin..."
The last episode with an ellipsis in the title was a great one. This is like the yang to that episode's yin. In other words, it absolutely sucks.
I was aware that this was considered one of the worst episodes in the history of the franchise, so I went into it with low expectations. And I think the writers knew what they were making, too, which is why they talked about swimming with a bunch of floaters.
I'd like to see the ratings figures for this episode and the following weeks. I can just imagine the casual fans who tuned in for "Trials" sticking around to get a taste of DS9 again, watching the first ten minutes of this episode, and giving Trek the finger.
It's not that this is bad because it's slow-paced, or there aren't any spacebattles. Some of my favorite episodes are slow-paced, without much action. Imagine an hour of Garak, Weyoun, and Dukat playing a game of cat-and-mouse, trying to out-guess each other. That would be about a perfect episode of DS9 for me, with none of them ever raising his voice and nothing blowing up.
As a fan, there are a lot of things I'm curious to learn more about. What are the Founders doing? What's Garak's backstory? What's happening on Bajor? How's the Cardassian civilian government holding up? I can guarantee that Worf's relationship status wasn't even on that list.
And this episode loses points, as well, for having Worf say "private" instead of "personal." I love the way Michael Dorn says "personal." Go back and watch him and Kurn's confrontation and disagree with me. Or that other episode where he told Riker about his holodeck program.
Pascal Fullterton sounds like he's selling life insurance.
There were exactly two things I liked in the episode. The mention of Captain Bootay, just so I could call him "Captain Bootay." And the part when Quark and Bashir say "Rom?" in unison.
The whole idea of the New Escentualists is, also, dumb. Yes, I know it's spelled "essential," but I preferred "Escentual," like they're selling scented candles or something. When they attack the solarium and that guy rips all the curtains down...c'mon. You're attacking curtains?
And, as the writers admitted on MA, there's the little problem that it was supposed to be a show about sex, but they couldn't talk about sex, let alone show it. And there was a host of production problems, plus the fact that Nana Visitor had just given birth to her and Siddig's son, Django (cool name--which one of them likes French gypsy guitarists?).
And Worf's childhood trauma doesn't really make sense. So he accidentally kills another kid (who, I might add, is stupid enough to headbutt a kid with cranial ridges), and instead of becoming passive and withdrawn becomes super-angry, super-disciplined, and withdrawn. It just doesn't work for me. For a guy who's afraid of hurting other people, he spends a lot of time practicing fighting. And, for a career, he did go into security, not something like astrometrics. Worf likes kicking ass.
I don't have the energy or time right now to explain everything that's wrong with this episode. But it's done its worst, and I'm still watching DS9.
"Let He Who Is Without Sin..."
The last episode with an ellipsis in the title was a great one. This is like the yang to that episode's yin. In other words, it absolutely sucks.
I was aware that this was considered one of the worst episodes in the history of the franchise, so I went into it with low expectations. And I think the writers knew what they were making, too, which is why they talked about swimming with a bunch of floaters.
I'd like to see the ratings figures for this episode and the following weeks. I can just imagine the casual fans who tuned in for "Trials" sticking around to get a taste of DS9 again, watching the first ten minutes of this episode, and giving Trek the finger.
It's not that this is bad because it's slow-paced, or there aren't any spacebattles. Some of my favorite episodes are slow-paced, without much action. Imagine an hour of Garak, Weyoun, and Dukat playing a game of cat-and-mouse, trying to out-guess each other. That would be about a perfect episode of DS9 for me, with none of them ever raising his voice and nothing blowing up.
As a fan, there are a lot of things I'm curious to learn more about. What are the Founders doing? What's Garak's backstory? What's happening on Bajor? How's the Cardassian civilian government holding up? I can guarantee that Worf's relationship status wasn't even on that list.
And this episode loses points, as well, for having Worf say "private" instead of "personal." I love the way Michael Dorn says "personal." Go back and watch him and Kurn's confrontation and disagree with me. Or that other episode where he told Riker about his holodeck program.
Pascal Fullterton sounds like he's selling life insurance.
There were exactly two things I liked in the episode. The mention of Captain Bootay, just so I could call him "Captain Bootay." And the part when Quark and Bashir say "Rom?" in unison.
The whole idea of the New Escentualists is, also, dumb. Yes, I know it's spelled "essential," but I preferred "Escentual," like they're selling scented candles or something. When they attack the solarium and that guy rips all the curtains down...c'mon. You're attacking curtains?
And, as the writers admitted on MA, there's the little problem that it was supposed to be a show about sex, but they couldn't talk about sex, let alone show it. And there was a host of production problems, plus the fact that Nana Visitor had just given birth to her and Siddig's son, Django (cool name--which one of them likes French gypsy guitarists?).
And Worf's childhood trauma doesn't really make sense. So he accidentally kills another kid (who, I might add, is stupid enough to headbutt a kid with cranial ridges), and instead of becoming passive and withdrawn becomes super-angry, super-disciplined, and withdrawn. It just doesn't work for me. For a guy who's afraid of hurting other people, he spends a lot of time practicing fighting. And, for a career, he did go into security, not something like astrometrics. Worf likes kicking ass.
I don't have the energy or time right now to explain everything that's wrong with this episode. But it's done its worst, and I'm still watching DS9.
"Trials ... " is definatly a highlight of the season if not DSN as a whole. As for the following episode yes one of the weaker episodes. Though thankfully DSN didn't have as many weaker entries as some of the other Trek series had.
Though with DSN I think they might stand out more as more often or not the episodes where good or above.
Though with DSN I think they might stand out more as more often or not the episodes where good or above.
It's amazing how one of the high-points of the show was immediately followed by its absolute worst episode. Maybe they were trying to copy VOY when they had one of its lowest points (Threshold) immediately followed by one of its greatest episodes (Meld).
Nah, I doubt that's it. I'll just have to continue to be puzzled.
Trials and Tribble-ations is indeed what a valentine to the fans is supposed to look like. Does this mean, Shatnertage, that you've watched ENT before?
As for Let He Who Is Without Sin..., some say that it's not the worst (that title belonging to a future episode), but not me. This is definitely the rock bottom of DS9. It's no secret that I don't like the character of Jadzia, but she goes to a whole new level in this episode. Then again, to be fair to her, EVERY other character is also insufferable in this one!
Nah, I doubt that's it. I'll just have to continue to be puzzled.
Trials and Tribble-ations is indeed what a valentine to the fans is supposed to look like. Does this mean, Shatnertage, that you've watched ENT before?
As for Let He Who Is Without Sin..., some say that it's not the worst (that title belonging to a future episode), but not me. This is definitely the rock bottom of DS9. It's no secret that I don't like the character of Jadzia, but she goes to a whole new level in this episode. Then again, to be fair to her, EVERY other character is also insufferable in this one!
^ I've seen all of ENT. DS9 is the last show that I'm watching all the way through.
My Trek watching history is:
TOS (rerun syndication, 1970s-1980s)
TNG (first run)
DS9, VOY (bits and pieces in first run, nothing substantial)
Then, a few years ago I picked up with:
ENT
VOY
and now...DS9
The problem with "Sin" is that it makes Worf look like a real controlling asshole. And the New Escentualists declare war on the Federation's softness...by tearing down the curtains in the solarium.
The most likable character in "Sin" is Quark, who's honest about what he wants--to get laid--and tries to have a good time.
My Trek watching history is:
TOS (rerun syndication, 1970s-1980s)
TNG (first run)
DS9, VOY (bits and pieces in first run, nothing substantial)
Then, a few years ago I picked up with:
ENT
VOY
and now...DS9
The problem with "Sin" is that it makes Worf look like a real controlling asshole. And the New Escentualists declare war on the Federation's softness...by tearing down the curtains in the solarium.
The most likable character in "Sin" is Quark, who's honest about what he wants--to get laid--and tries to have a good time.
Now that's I've talked about the past, I can return to the present and...
"Things Past"
From some standpoints, this is a good episode. We've got Garak. We've got Gul Dukat at the peak of his power and pomposity. We've got good acting from the cast, especially Rene Auberjonois. And the story is a mystery that eventually is resolved.
We also get a peak into like on Terok Nor, which still seems to really suck.
The downside of this episode: It's another "everyone's dreaming, and if you die in the dream you (probably) die in real life" episode.
But we get to know some more about Odo, mostly that he's not a great a guy as everyone thinks, and we learn more about Terok Nor. Both of these are good.
They very subtly telegraphed the twist by having Odo see dead people and, at one point, see his own hands covered in blood. Didn't see that one coming, that's for sure.
But for a more psychological episode, this was a good one. Not one of the best episodes I've ever seen, but it makes you think.
"Things Past"
From some standpoints, this is a good episode. We've got Garak. We've got Gul Dukat at the peak of his power and pomposity. We've got good acting from the cast, especially Rene Auberjonois. And the story is a mystery that eventually is resolved.
We also get a peak into like on Terok Nor, which still seems to really suck.
The downside of this episode: It's another "everyone's dreaming, and if you die in the dream you (probably) die in real life" episode.
But we get to know some more about Odo, mostly that he's not a great a guy as everyone thinks, and we learn more about Terok Nor. Both of these are good.
They very subtly telegraphed the twist by having Odo see dead people and, at one point, see his own hands covered in blood. Didn't see that one coming, that's for sure.
But for a more psychological episode, this was a good one. Not one of the best episodes I've ever seen, but it makes you think.
It's also such a stereotyped take on what Hollywood thinks conservatives are...what a strawman. Guess they didn't want people to actually have to think about their opinions--just blindly take what Our Heroes think as gospel. I think it would've been better served if it hadn't been so clearcut, and viewers actually had to reason out who they agreed with and why.
It was really awesome first run. I even wrote an essay about in my 12th grade creative writing class after it aired (Man, what a nerd I was...)
As for "That episode we do not speak of," I'm a Worf fan and I can't even stomach watching it. I've only watched it once all the way through (when it aired) and never again. I've watched bits of it on Netflix to remind myself that it's as bad as I remembered.
To me, the only redeemable scene is the one where Worf talks about killing the kid. I think it makes a lot of sense for him; he restrains himself around non-Klingons because he's afraid of hurting them. And when one has restrained themselves for so long it becomes a part of who they are.
IMO, this episode is the reasons lots of fans don't like Worf and Jadzia together. The actors, who have good chemistry in their other episodes, have absolutely none here; they are like strangers.
Thankfully, their episodes together get better in this season and the next. I think some of their best, most natural scenes are in "Times Orphan" which happens to be right before Jadzia buys the farm.
Once you finish with the series, Shatnertage, I highly suggest that you look for SFDebris' excellent video review of Let He Who Is Without Sin.... (currently it's not available, but he's working on getting everything restored). You have to wait until after you finish, however, because all his reviews contain spoilers for future episodes. And, the Let He Who Is Without Sin... one contains one truly MASSIVE 
one!
But, let me further spew my hate at this episode. Part of this I'm plagiarizing from another review I found online, but so be it because these are all good points....
According to Memory Alpha, Wolfe, Behr and the rest of the show's creative team are apparently under the impression that the episode fails because.... .... .... .... wait for it.... .... .... .... it's just not sexy enough. Contemplate that for a while while I regain my thoughts.
This episode doesn't fail because it's lacking T&A. First, it fails because it morphs all the characters into utterly unlikeable caricatures of themselves. Yes, Worf is usually uptight, but would he really rain all over everyone's parade simply because he's fighting with his girlfriend? And if you think Jadzia escapes the character assassination extravaganza, think again. She becomes a bratty, insensitive child who whines constantly about Worf controlling her when all Worf wants is for her to reign in her flirting and actually talk about their relationship (you know, the whole reason they supposedly went on this trip).
Allow me to veer slightly off-topic: over the years, my dad has had a few female colleagues who insisted on flirting with him and sharing the intimate details of their love lives with him even though they know he's married. I don't think my mom is being a jealous bitch whenever she requests that dad keep these relationships professional. In fact, I would think something is very wrong with mom if she didn't. The whole post-modern idea that we should float from one relationship to the next without getting invested in any of them is such dehumanizing crap.
Now, back to Worf and Jadzia: just as I believe mom is completely within her rights to ask dad not to talk about sex with co-workers, Worf is perfectly within his rights to ask Jadzia to refrain from gossiping about their intimate life. He is also completely within his rights to question Dax's associating with former lovers. Or are we honestly going to say it would be okay if Tom Paris started doing what can only be called erotic clay sculpting with one of the Delaney sisters while he was seriously dating B'Elanna? Of course, this situation is worse, as Jadzia is doing it with an actual former lover! WORF IS RESPONDING AS ANY NORMAL RED-BLOODED HUMANOID SHOULD and I really resent that the writers are so obviously trying to argue the contrary. Dax wants to be free to do whatever she pleases, but I'm sorry -- IT JUST DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY. Or, again, would she be okay with the situation if Deanna Troi showed and and Worf started heavily flirting with her? In any good relationship, you have to give a little to get a little.
Second, Let He Who Is Without Sin... fails because (as Nerys already said) it sets up a false dichotomy. We are presented with a choice between the shallow promiscuity of the Risians and the stuck-up Puritans. Oh, I'm sorry - the stuck-up New Essentialists. No moderate voices are ever heard or even given a hearing. No one ever offers something like "Hey, this Fullerton guy is a complete and total jackass and I would never condone his methods, but he may have a point about our decadence." NO! Instead, the writers spend the entire episode telling us what to think. And what is the message they want us to take away from this episode, pray tell? That social conservatives are a bunch of bitter, hateful people who need just need a good fucking - oh, sorry again, a good jamaharoning - because they're eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil.
Well, guess what - jamaharon you, writers!
Now, that being said, I really like Things Past.
one!But, let me further spew my hate at this episode. Part of this I'm plagiarizing from another review I found online, but so be it because these are all good points....
According to Memory Alpha, Wolfe, Behr and the rest of the show's creative team are apparently under the impression that the episode fails because.... .... .... .... wait for it.... .... .... .... it's just not sexy enough. Contemplate that for a while while I regain my thoughts.
This episode doesn't fail because it's lacking T&A. First, it fails because it morphs all the characters into utterly unlikeable caricatures of themselves. Yes, Worf is usually uptight, but would he really rain all over everyone's parade simply because he's fighting with his girlfriend? And if you think Jadzia escapes the character assassination extravaganza, think again. She becomes a bratty, insensitive child who whines constantly about Worf controlling her when all Worf wants is for her to reign in her flirting and actually talk about their relationship (you know, the whole reason they supposedly went on this trip).
Allow me to veer slightly off-topic: over the years, my dad has had a few female colleagues who insisted on flirting with him and sharing the intimate details of their love lives with him even though they know he's married. I don't think my mom is being a jealous bitch whenever she requests that dad keep these relationships professional. In fact, I would think something is very wrong with mom if she didn't. The whole post-modern idea that we should float from one relationship to the next without getting invested in any of them is such dehumanizing crap.
Now, back to Worf and Jadzia: just as I believe mom is completely within her rights to ask dad not to talk about sex with co-workers, Worf is perfectly within his rights to ask Jadzia to refrain from gossiping about their intimate life. He is also completely within his rights to question Dax's associating with former lovers. Or are we honestly going to say it would be okay if Tom Paris started doing what can only be called erotic clay sculpting with one of the Delaney sisters while he was seriously dating B'Elanna? Of course, this situation is worse, as Jadzia is doing it with an actual former lover! WORF IS RESPONDING AS ANY NORMAL RED-BLOODED HUMANOID SHOULD and I really resent that the writers are so obviously trying to argue the contrary. Dax wants to be free to do whatever she pleases, but I'm sorry -- IT JUST DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY. Or, again, would she be okay with the situation if Deanna Troi showed and and Worf started heavily flirting with her? In any good relationship, you have to give a little to get a little.
Second, Let He Who Is Without Sin... fails because (as Nerys already said) it sets up a false dichotomy. We are presented with a choice between the shallow promiscuity of the Risians and the stuck-up Puritans. Oh, I'm sorry - the stuck-up New Essentialists. No moderate voices are ever heard or even given a hearing. No one ever offers something like "Hey, this Fullerton guy is a complete and total jackass and I would never condone his methods, but he may have a point about our decadence." NO! Instead, the writers spend the entire episode telling us what to think. And what is the message they want us to take away from this episode, pray tell? That social conservatives are a bunch of bitter, hateful people who need just need a good fucking - oh, sorry again, a good jamaharoning - because they're eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil.
Well, guess what - jamaharon you, writers!
Now, that being said, I really like Things Past.
Once you finish with the series, Shatnertage, I highly suggest that you look for SFDebris' excellent video review of Let He Who Is Without Sin.... (currently it's not available, but he's working on getting everything restored). You have to wait until after you finish, however, because all his reviews contain spoilers for future episodes. And, the Let He Who Is Without Sin... one contains one truly MASSIVE
But, let me further spew my hate at this episode. Part of this I'm plagiarizing from another review I found online, but so be it because these are all good points....
According to Memory Alpha, Wolfe, Behr and the rest of the show's creative team are apparently under the impression that the episode fails because.... .... .... .... wait for it.... .... .... .... it's just not sexy enough. Contemplate that for a while while I regain my thoughts.
I remember reading that when it was first printed in the DS9 Companion and thinking "WTF???" I can't get over the fact that Behr and Wolfe actually wrote this episode, two writers who should have known better. The characterisations were absolutely horrible for all the reasons you mentioned. Ugh.
That said, I'd love to see the video reviews you're speaking of.
Oh, and I really liked "Things Past" as well
Exactly, Shran. And I'd almost swear they made the leader of the New Essentialists look and act like a televangelist, to drive the strawman point home even further. The big, bad preacher man.
I couldn't help but love this ep. And I only saw 1 place where I could tell it had been edited. Really great job.
Actually, he reminded me of a guy who'd be selling reverse mortgages or the Hoveraround.
A dark story, but Garak and Terek Nor made it worthwhile viewing.
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