Yes well I know that...but I wanted Captain Dreidl to actually give me a reason himself and think about it.
Shatnertage's Mostly-1st-Time Watch Thread
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Because of the way it's presented as a mantra that will solve everyone's problems, despite the fact that it hasn't solved anyone's problems.
"It can only work in fantasy land" is a pretty concrete statement. Just because something hasn't worked yet doesn't mean it doesn't have merit nor does it mean it can't work.
There is nothing "creepy" or "wrong" about drawing any kind of inspiration or thought from the writings of Communist thinkers.
There is nothing "creepy" or "wrong" about drawing any kind of inspiration or thought from the writings of Communist thinkers.
Oh God, given my pro-capitalist sentiments, we could so easily use this one episode to completely and utterly derail this entire thread into oblivion. If these were my reviews, I wouldn't have a problem with that.
However, I don't think that would be fair to Shatnertage, so let's just now agree to disagree on Bar Association - you like it, I don't - otherwise things could get nasty.
And that's when the mods come in.
However, I don't think that would be fair to Shatnertage, so let's just now agree to disagree on Bar Association - you like it, I don't - otherwise things could get nasty.
And that's when the mods come in.
Oh God, given my pro-capitalist sentiments, we could so easily use this one episode to completely and utterly derail this entire thread into oblivion. If these were my reviews, I wouldn't have a problem with that.
However, I don't think that would be fair to Shatnertage, so let's just now agree to disagree on Bar Association - you like it, I don't - otherwise things could get nasty.
And that's when the mods come in.
Your right. I got distracted by the old Capitalism good, Communism BAD argument that I forgot to voice my thoughts on the episode itself.
I thought Bar Association was good for what it was, a fun little bottle episode. There were some laughs and Rom, a minor character, got some more character development and his character was changed forever from here on out. Not all episodes have to have the ship or station in danger.
I'm sure my father-in-law, who fled from Hungary on foot and spent time in a refugee camp to get away from a communist regime would have a few interesting things to say about why citing Marx is a bad idea.
But that's besides the point.
This episode's real crime is introducing the concept of Ferengi Ear Masturbation. How long before Quark tells Rom, "If you don't stop playing with yourself, you'll go deaf"?
The other thing, the more I think about it, is that this episode requires Quark, who we've seen before as an unprincipled but also intelligent and empathetic individual ("Profit and Loss") to just be unprincipled.
But that's besides the point.
This episode's real crime is introducing the concept of Ferengi Ear Masturbation. How long before Quark tells Rom, "If you don't stop playing with yourself, you'll go deaf"?
The other thing, the more I think about it, is that this episode requires Quark, who we've seen before as an unprincipled but also intelligent and empathetic individual ("Profit and Loss") to just be unprincipled.
In fairness, though, if you know anything about Marx's ideas, you also know that the way they were implemented in Warsaw Pact countries was a long way from how he actually intended them. Pretty much every country that has had a communist government was in the process of industrializing and thus were never able to bring their economy up to speed.
Meanwhile, Marx basically postulated that capitalism would allow a country to industrialize to the point where the workers could then rise up and implement a communist system, with the infrastructure and economic systems already in place. Leninism, and later Stalinism and Maoism were deliberate moves away from what Marx proposed, and shouldn't really be used as an example of why Marxism is a bad thing. To date, no one has ever actually implemented a true Marxist government.
I think its pretty dumb to dismiss everything any Communist economist said just because some bad things happened in countries that implemented many aspects of communism into their government. Marx practically predicted the exact crisis we're having right now, he was a smart man who wrote a lot of sensible, smart things.
But that's all I'll be saying on the subject, back to Trek things...
But that's all I'll be saying on the subject, back to Trek things...
I'll say one last thing on this before we return to our regularly scheduled Trek stuff.
In order to keep this as civil as possible, I'd simply like to direct people to a book that pretty much dismantles communism/socialism/Marxism(or whatever it is called) and shows why I don't like it. It's called Requiem for Marx, edited by Yuri Maltsev (a Russian immigrant to the U.S. who was one of Mikhail Gorbachev's economic advisers before the collapse of the Soviet Union)....
http://www.amazon.com/Requiem-Marx-...sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1323086950&sr=8-1-spell
In order to keep this as civil as possible, I'd simply like to direct people to a book that pretty much dismantles communism/socialism/Marxism(or whatever it is called) and shows why I don't like it. It's called Requiem for Marx, edited by Yuri Maltsev (a Russian immigrant to the U.S. who was one of Mikhail Gorbachev's economic advisers before the collapse of the Soviet Union)....
http://www.amazon.com/Requiem-Marx-...sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1323086950&sr=8-1-spell
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Since we are all giving our final thoughts on this I will say that neither capitalism or communism are without flaws. We can see the problems with capitalism with what’s going on in the world today. And what the Russians tired to implement and force onto the rest of Europe and the world wasn't Communism, they might have called it that, but it wasn't.
The fundamental flaw of communism is it requires people to be decent, selfless, honourable and trust worthy. But in reality people are selfish, greedy and dishonest. Maybe once mankind "grows out of it's infancy" as depicted in TNG a communistic form of economics could naturally develop, but obviously we aren't there yet.
In a true communist society the government hardly has to do anything, it's the people themselves that take care of things. There would barely even be a need for a police force because there would hardly be any crime. There wouldn't need to be any government oversight to make sure food isn't poisoned or lead paint used in children’s toys because the people making the food and toys would make sure it was good.
But we are a long ways off from this ever happening. Maybe if we ever create cold fusion and a have a huge surplus of energy. And develop a form of matter/energy replication, allowing us to create almost anything out of thin air. That would probably be enough to satisfy humans natural greedy tendencies. After all, as Spock once said: "having is not so pleasing a thing as wanting. This is not logical, but it is often true" if we follow that line of thinking then, if everyone can have anything, nobody will actually want anything.
The fundamental flaw of communism is it requires people to be decent, selfless, honourable and trust worthy. But in reality people are selfish, greedy and dishonest. Maybe once mankind "grows out of it's infancy" as depicted in TNG a communistic form of economics could naturally develop, but obviously we aren't there yet.
In a true communist society the government hardly has to do anything, it's the people themselves that take care of things. There would barely even be a need for a police force because there would hardly be any crime. There wouldn't need to be any government oversight to make sure food isn't poisoned or lead paint used in children’s toys because the people making the food and toys would make sure it was good.
But we are a long ways off from this ever happening. Maybe if we ever create cold fusion and a have a huge surplus of energy. And develop a form of matter/energy replication, allowing us to create almost anything out of thin air. That would probably be enough to satisfy humans natural greedy tendencies. After all, as Spock once said: "having is not so pleasing a thing as wanting. This is not logical, but it is often true" if we follow that line of thinking then, if everyone can have anything, nobody will actually want anything.
The key there is that you're asking to change human nature, and even with matter/energy replication, I still think that personal power, reputation, territory, and sexual desires will remain in play as things that individuals could choose to subvert into reasons for greed and to do harm to others. And you also assume that the means for unlimited energy and production would actually be made available to everyone. The human tendency, whether we like to admit it or not, is to hoard, and the idea that we could simply "grow out of it" doesn't square with reality, in my opinion.
Isn't that also the flaw with capitalism? It just allows more room for greed, and on a bigger level. Less poverty, but it's on more of an extreme scale.
The problem with communism is it gives (almost) everyone the same standard of living. Problem being, realistically, it's a shit standard of living.
I consider capitalism the lesser of the two 'evils' if you will, but a better system is needed. Both of these systems would work in almost exactly the same way, if human greed was eliminated. Problem is, whatever happens, greed will stand in the way
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVM-pdDNPV8
It might not be realistic, but it's Star Trek.
It's not the flaw with capitalism, a lack of those things almost a requirement. Capitalism is all about survival of the fittest. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer. With capitalism there is no pretence of bettering yourself (except for the acquisition of money) or the rest of humanity. Greed is good, after all.
That's true for today, but not in the future depicted in TOS and TNG.
Most civilized countries have a sort of balance between the two. A capitalistic economy with varying degrees of socialism thrown in.
Regardless of what Picard said, the fact is that it cannot happen in reality. And I am pretty sure that in Trek, there has to be a dark underside we haven't seen--though DS9 certainly hinted at it, which was one of the bold moves I was glad the show made.
Its game theory 101. As long as there's an unfair advantage that can be gained by cheating, someone will eventually try to take advantage of it. This isn't a part of human nature at all, its part of nature itself.
^ And just think - most of us are holding back.
You want to move on now do you? HAVEN'T YOU CONSIDERED THAT SOME OF US ARE STILL DISCUSSING THIS???I'm just hoping that Shatnertage gets around to reviewing Accession before hostilities break out.
I suppose... but that's never going to happenMrJ said:
Maybe, but capitalism is still at the fundamental core.
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