Shatner speaks....
- Thread starter Warped9
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Well, people here are fans. Even those who try to pretend that they are some how above "fans" and know more - just here as neutral authorities....lol.
So what should they talk about? Is there an approved list? I mean I personally find speculative discussions on TOS Universe minutia which includes rationalizations to grasp at reasons for random or flippant happenings very annoying. But ST and I think especially TOS is a fan formed universe.
So what is a good subject?
Candidly I don't think that makes Shatner look bad. He seems quite candid about the fact that Takei can't let it go and can't miss a chance to put Shatner down.
And it has been amply illustated thoughout the thread Shatner and Takei were not on the same playing field in terms of their importance to the series. And that Takei was often absent while Shatner was there day after day.
So it stirkes me that unless there is evidence that Shatner actually ranted and raved about this supposed invitation then it's just more of Takei making an issue of nothing and talking out his ass.
A simple truth is that you are rarely if ever handed anything. If Takei and the rest felt they were being shortcghanged in their roles then ir was up to them to go to those in charge and raise the issue. If they didn't fight to make the most of their roles then they certainly can't blame others for making the most of theirs.
I like the secondary characters and I would have liked to see a bit more of them and about them, but in truth their major contribution was little more than set decir to flesh out the setting the series was trying to depict. Shatner and Nimoy along with Kelley later were far more instrumental in making the series work. They were the real draw and drive of the show.
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Well (my understanding), it was Bill discussing that he was not invited when he actually was (that is the story). It's not becoming because the discussion doesn't have to happen at all and Bill doesn't need to (as a professional) discuss his uneducated opinion of mental heath of another person. It's just not pretty. It's irrelevant if he is correct or not - it's poorly handled. It reflects poorly to some. As far as Takai - sure, maybe the same applies.....but there are too many folks in this thread trying to pretend that Bill's behavior is beyond reproach.
As for the importance of characters. In the eyes of the producers and directors this is well defined. And I have been well enlightened by some things introduced in this thread. I can certainly see Bill's point of view better. But in the eyes of "fans" importance is not well defined - or at least the intended definitions do not hold. And at the end of the day, it was fans that made the numerous movies possible and the franchise viable - with the *crew* in mind. It really is Fans that ultimately decide the success of an actor in a role. So to disparage the input of fans is kinda silly in my very humble opinion. ST is a 3 season failure without fans - period. With them is is a multi-generational, multi decadal phenomenon.
Despite what "fans" might like to think the majority of viewers (also known as fans) were tuning in to see Captain Kirk and Mr. Spock and not Lt. Sulu and Ensign Chekov. The series and each successive film established what they were going to see and "fans" were okay with that because they kept tuning in and kept lining up for each film.
No, Shatner is not a doctor, but he can have an opinion, and he can express it as he did. Takei's behaviour over the years is obsessive and appears indicative of some unusual compulsion. And Shatner's one or two rather mild responses is nowhere near of the same magnitude as Takei's incessant behaviour.
So maybe Takei should talk to someone professional because otherwise he can't seem to get over something from decades ago and shut the fuck up about it.
No, Shatner is not a doctor, but he can have an opinion, and he can express it as he did. Takei's behaviour over the years is obsessive and appears indicative of some unusual compulsion. And Shatner's one or two rather mild responses is nowhere near of the same magnitude as Takei's incessant behaviour.
So maybe Takei should talk to someone professional because otherwise he can't seem to get over something from decades ago and shut the fuck up about it.
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Amaris
Guest
Agreed completely. Bill's responses have been downright cordial compared to the acidic swipes taken by George.
Over the years I've seen two things at work. The first is Takei's evident bitterness toward Shatner over something he believes was wrong on Shatner's part in terms of his behaviour towards Takei. There might indeed be something to it, at least in the beginning, and/or it has simply loomed bigger in Takei's mind than it really was in actuality.
The second is the media and fan's insistence on repeatedly poking the hornet's nest and thus feeding Takei's bitterness. Maybe if Takei wasn't repeatedly asked about it it wouldn't be brought up at all and he would shut up about it.
The second is the media and fan's insistence on repeatedly poking the hornet's nest and thus feeding Takei's bitterness. Maybe if Takei wasn't repeatedly asked about it it wouldn't be brought up at all and he would shut up about it.
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Great point. I like Uhura but I like Lt. Palmer and I wish she could have been there more often. She was on one other episode, The Way to Eden. Yes, I had to look it up.
I also mention that there was a semi regular navigator in the first season, I don't think he ever got a name but he was on many episodes. I know many of the posters know who he is but I can't remember his name.
Should he be/have been as vital as the others?
But on the other side of that, look at all of the attention Eddie Paskey as rarely speaking extra/stuntman character now know as Lt. Leslie got from fans. I think, that attention went to their heads. They being Takei, Nichols and Doohan.
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Now this really pisses me off! Kelley's been dead for years, and Takei invokes his name to further advance his twisted little agenda, without the ability for him to respond to the veracity of the charge. Very convenient! I know Doohan was also mentioned here, but his bile for Shatner is well known, despite rumors that they patched things up before he died. I don't think Kelley had one bad word to say about Shatner or any of his co-workers, for that matter. If he were still alive today, I can't believe for one second that he would allow himself to be pulled into this nonsensical and unprofessional bullshit. I was willing to give Takei some small benefit of doubt, hoping that he would use some amount of the publicity drummed up by these idiotic stunts to further his worthy causes, but not any more. I really hope this splashes back on him finally and he's left out in the cold by the fandom at large.
Fuck you and the horse you rode in on Takei!
If you want to bring up De, then mention the incident where his dog died and Shatner cracked an insensitive joke about it, which cut De to the core.
So please let's not ignore the fact that Shatner can and has been a jerk, even to major costars.
(And as for the fans, dare I mention the "Get a life" sketch?)
I don't particularly like the insinuation that you're entitled to be aloof or obnoxious towards people as long as you perceive them to be peons in the workplace either. Especially in Hollywood, people get ahead by virtue of their relationships. One day the bit player could become a superstar. It pays to be nice to everyone.
So please let's not ignore the fact that Shatner can and has been a jerk, even to major costars.
(And as for the fans, dare I mention the "Get a life" sketch?)
I don't particularly like the insinuation that you're entitled to be aloof or obnoxious towards people as long as you perceive them to be peons in the workplace either. Especially in Hollywood, people get ahead by virtue of their relationships. One day the bit player could become a superstar. It pays to be nice to everyone.
All of us has been a jerk at some time or other even if it's usually without meaning to. It's not hard for something we say or do to come out wrong or we misjudge a situation. It's what comes afterword that matters.
Shatner is not known for trashing his coworkers. And I'm sure there must have been some along the way he didn't care for, but I don't recall hearing much of Shatner running down those he didn't like. And he certainly isn't known for trashing his TOS coworkers.
OTH Takei has made it a habit to trash Shatner whenever he has the chamce. He is unable to let it go even for his own piece of mind at least. But the moment Shatner makes one small reply Takei is all over it as a wounded victim.
That's pure victim mentality and total bullshit.
There is no fued here if there ever was one. This is a vendettta where Takei makes a point to badmouth Shatner whenever he can. And media and fans keep enabling him to continue doing it.
Shatner isn't a saint. Practically no one is. But Shatner has taken the high road for the most part while Takei is content to keep slinging mud at every opportunity.
Shatner is not known for trashing his coworkers. And I'm sure there must have been some along the way he didn't care for, but I don't recall hearing much of Shatner running down those he didn't like. And he certainly isn't known for trashing his TOS coworkers.
OTH Takei has made it a habit to trash Shatner whenever he has the chamce. He is unable to let it go even for his own piece of mind at least. But the moment Shatner makes one small reply Takei is all over it as a wounded victim.
That's pure victim mentality and total bullshit.
There is no fued here if there ever was one. This is a vendettta where Takei makes a point to badmouth Shatner whenever he can. And media and fans keep enabling him to continue doing it.
Shatner isn't a saint. Practically no one is. But Shatner has taken the high road for the most part while Takei is content to keep slinging mud at every opportunity.
Forgot about the dog bit. You're quite right, Shatner could be an insensitive tool bag at times, but consider this:
Unless there are other incidents that I have forgotten hearing/reading about over the years, that was the only one between them and I can't recall Kelley ever holding a life-long grudge with Shatner over it. I remember seeing him at a convention, probably around the time between TFF and TUC and he was extremely kind and gracious to all of his co-stars, something he was renowned for his entire career. If anyone made it look like they were a big happy family, it was Kelley - more so than even Roddenberry.
Shatner was considerably younger at the time, full of ambition and drive and, yes, "the star" - with all the trappings and foibles held therein. How many people does anyone know that didn't say something stupid on occasion, particularly in their youth? And, as the story goes, the way Kelley told the story, it did sound like he was trying to be a little amusing about it, referring to its running into a sprinkler head. The mental image conjured is one of an almost cartoonish nature, of an over-excitable Chihuahua careening head-first into a garden sprinkler. If it had lived, it would have been downright freakin' hysterical. Anyone with even the remotest kind of sense of humor would have had a hard time not cracking-wise over that, especially Shatner, who was renown for his almost uncontrollable and institutional joking and jibing.
True, Kelley didn't really want to have much to do with him for almost 2 years after that, but he never went on a public rampage against Shatner, constantly engaging in exuberant, almost gleeful, character assassination. He was a gentleman about it - and a consummate professional. A concept which, to this day, seems quite alien to Mr. Takei. Honestly, I don't know why Shatner hasn't tried suing him for slander and defamation of character. Probably doesn't want to give him more of a public platform to spew his bullshit. If so, probably the only winning move is not to play the game.
As for the dog thing, Kelley was said to have eventually forgiven him for the slip, and they had been close friends up until the time of his death.
As for the "get a life" sketch, only those for whom the message was intended take offense. I found it outlandishly funny, relevant and apropos, even at the gentle age of 16 when I first saw it. People who mercilessly obsess for years over Yeoman Rand's cabin number or Kirk's safe combination DO need to get a freakin' life!
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True; no one was following ST from TOS to TAS, then running to see ST films for the continuing adventures of Sulu. That would as preposterous as saying fans flocked to Star Wars movies to see more Stormtroopers.
He has no other claim to fame, or (apparently) reason to exist. His attacks on Shatner reveal (among several things) an acknowledgement that he could not milk Sulu alone, and with no way of making a direct link to the interest in the Kirk character, his unwarranted rage turned to Shatner, as though producer decisions had nothing to do with the limited status of his character, and the resultant lack of top level adoration.
He's a hollow person, so much so that his most significant life experience during WW2 still takes a back seat to a short time job, and his campaign of hate/jealously over a magnetic and successful co-worker.
Emphasis on the word "sketch." Shatner was a guest on SNL, and it was the series writers making that observation / joke about ST fans. By that time, the nerdy / dateless / obsessed fan stereotype had spread far and wide, so with Shatner as a guest, what better way to capitalize on the guest star by having him play himself, while pretending to be turning the mirror on convention goers? It was a great sketch.
But that is not how it works. Ambition and self-centered behavior is a ruling personality, and its not all one giant party of pals. They are in a competitive business where the actor is trying to prove why you should not hire person B as much as he's trying to land the role based on his own talents.
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Here's the thing. I wouldn't be surprised if Roddenberry talked up the roles given to Doohan, Nichols, Takei and Koenig to make them sound more important than they would be eventually. They were significant in terms of their visibility on the show during that era, but they weren't significant in the series overall impact and acclaim and eventual success through syndication.
But at no point did I ever hear Takei or any of the others gripe about GR breaking his promise to them or not living up to helping them fulfill their respective characters' possibilities. No, it all became Shatner's fault for daring to assume he was the star of the show and the reason for its success.
Hello, Shatner was indeed the freakin' star as he was contracted and paid to be. And he gave it his all to fulfill what he was hired to do. And when the vast majority of people think of Star Trek they think Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, the Enterprise and then all the rest.
Takei had since developed a sense of his own importance and directed his post TOS disppointment (career wise) at Shatner because he had the temerity to succeed where Takei hadn't.
But at no point did I ever hear Takei or any of the others gripe about GR breaking his promise to them or not living up to helping them fulfill their respective characters' possibilities. No, it all became Shatner's fault for daring to assume he was the star of the show and the reason for its success.
Hello, Shatner was indeed the freakin' star as he was contracted and paid to be. And he gave it his all to fulfill what he was hired to do. And when the vast majority of people think of Star Trek they think Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, the Enterprise and then all the rest.
Takei had since developed a sense of his own importance and directed his post TOS disppointment (career wise) at Shatner because he had the temerity to succeed where Takei hadn't.
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It has been said over the years that the majority of the blame for much of this inter-personal venom between the cast members was enabled by the conventions. Each member of the cast had his/her groupies and fan clubs, each using the cons as a platform to express that admiration, playing up the perceived "importance" of each character on the show. Admiration eventually evolved into to resentment - "I should have had more air time than those other guys. I was just as important as them!", exacerbated by obsessive fans whispering in the actors' respective ears, alluding to that notion. When TNG came around, that made a point of giving more airtime to "second tier" cast making it a true ensemble, I'm sure that added insult to injury and fuel to the TOS fire that was already burning since the 70's.
Shatner was the highest-profile actor on the show and, ergo, received the lion's share of the criticism. Some of it was justified, yes, but spending almost 50 years of your lives on petty bickering is astonishing to me. He has also bent over backwards and gone out of his way to make amends, to genuinely try to understand how people perceived him, only to be spat in his face by some of them. Idiotic.
Please, George, for the love of All That Does Not Suck...
Shatner was the highest-profile actor on the show and, ergo, received the lion's share of the criticism. Some of it was justified, yes, but spending almost 50 years of your lives on petty bickering is astonishing to me. He has also bent over backwards and gone out of his way to make amends, to genuinely try to understand how people perceived him, only to be spat in his face by some of them. Idiotic.
Please, George, for the love of All That Does Not Suck...
It was an amazing sketch. And there is a lot of truth to it. It's a reminder to us fans that maybe, just maybe, we take things a little too seriously. Who better to tell us that then Captain Kirk himself?
^^^ +1
Fuck you and the horse you rode in on Takei!
That's basically how this situation should be summed up in a nutshell.
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