Shatner speaks....
- Thread starter Warped9
- Start date
When was the last time they worked together? 1991's The Undiscovered Country?
It has been 25 years, George. Give it a rest.
Nah, he's got lots of followers of his own on social media - close to 9 million on Facebook - and through his involvement with various political organizations and social causes. Hell, a couple of years ago he was a public face of the Social Security Administration.
If a former co-worker of mine, with whom I'd had as little interaction as Shatner with Takei, were constantly going around decades later constantly bad-mouthing me, I'd think there was something mentally wrong with the guy.
Then again, I'm not a famous actor, so the promotional value of manufacturing a public feud with me is nil.
Then again, I'm not a famous actor, so the promotional value of manufacturing a public feud with me is nil.
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Not when a person with a life so empty he feels he has to claw into a former co-worker from one, old job to remain relevant. If such a person did not so obviously invest all into ego piggybacking off of one, old job, he would realize that any success the production enjoyed was centered around the stars--exactly how the series was structured.
I did not see Butch (Eddie Munster) Patrick running around acting as if he was just as responsible for the success and/or popularity of The Munsters as Fred Gwynne or Al Lewis, and complaining that the stars somehow "stole" lines or star-making scenes from him. In other words, 2nd and 3rd tier performers are not bitter and jealous like Takei.
I think there is more at play here.
In Bill's eyes (and right up front I have to say I am laying out a speculative scenario) it was a job. A solid gig. And that was it. And it was always shaky. And here is the top star of the series (by script) - young(er) arrogant and aggressive because he knew it was just a job and it was short lived. He was hired to be under the spotlight and this gig had to lead to the next. I have no doubt that he was not actively trying to minimize the others - in his own mind. And no doubt he didn't use every opportunity to increase his fame and pad his pages.
But the fact is, to me, the entire gang are the top stars. They ALL made TOS what it was. And that is what it became later - the reality of the aftermath of the series. And it payed all of them well later -especially Bill and Leonard. But Bill never seemed to see them as a family....he was always playing the star. So I get it.
So I can see the Shat Man saying, "hey, what did I ever do to you? I don't really even know you." I get that.
But I also get this - how you can say "I don't even know you" after working with them for years and hundreds and hundreds of hours? I've shown up at events for Co-workers I have spent far less time with - out of simply respect. I think you can only say that if you really don't want to know someone else. Keep something in mind. Takai, Doohan, Kelly, and Nimoy, etc.. were not upstarts. They were known actors with rap sheets as deep as Bill's. They were colleagues regardless of the rolls they played on a short lived TV series with lack luster ratings - they had a decade of acting under them before TOS. And while TOS was going on, they were Shat's professional equals as far as overall career.
So, yeah - I can see some animosity. And yes, I think George should have let it go long ago. But I get it. And Galaxy Quest was a nice humorous way top frame it.
Just my thoughts.
In Bill's eyes (and right up front I have to say I am laying out a speculative scenario) it was a job. A solid gig. And that was it. And it was always shaky. And here is the top star of the series (by script) - young(er) arrogant and aggressive because he knew it was just a job and it was short lived. He was hired to be under the spotlight and this gig had to lead to the next. I have no doubt that he was not actively trying to minimize the others - in his own mind. And no doubt he didn't use every opportunity to increase his fame and pad his pages.
But the fact is, to me, the entire gang are the top stars. They ALL made TOS what it was. And that is what it became later - the reality of the aftermath of the series. And it payed all of them well later -especially Bill and Leonard. But Bill never seemed to see them as a family....he was always playing the star. So I get it.
So I can see the Shat Man saying, "hey, what did I ever do to you? I don't really even know you." I get that.
But I also get this - how you can say "I don't even know you" after working with them for years and hundreds and hundreds of hours? I've shown up at events for Co-workers I have spent far less time with - out of simply respect. I think you can only say that if you really don't want to know someone else. Keep something in mind. Takai, Doohan, Kelly, and Nimoy, etc.. were not upstarts. They were known actors with rap sheets as deep as Bill's. They were colleagues regardless of the rolls they played on a short lived TV series with lack luster ratings - they had a decade of acting under them before TOS. And while TOS was going on, they were Shat's professional equals as far as overall career.
So, yeah - I can see some animosity. And yes, I think George should have let it go long ago. But I get it. And Galaxy Quest was a nice humorous way top frame it.
Just my thoughts.
The series was not structured that way. Kirk, Spock, and by the end of S1, McCoy were the focus. This was not the oft-misapplied "Magnificent Seven in Space" tag. The "add ons" were needed one day, unnecessary the next. They were not the drivers of the series by any stretch of the imagination.
The casting of Shatner (in addition to a strong 2nd pilot) held the emotional potential for what was to come, with the developing relationship between Kirk and Spock.
A working actor with a family to support is always (or trying) to be on the move. If he's successful at it (ex. the late Robert Reed, who starred on 2 series at the same time), do you think he's free to really show up (as in your co-worker example) for every minor player's event, or really know them all that well?
You could not be more incorrect. Pre-Star Trek, Shatner was considered an in-demand, up-and-coming serious actor with serious acting "chops" on stage and screen. Doohan, Takei, Nicholls and Koenig were nowhere on that level of consideration pre-ST. His status was considered levels higher than Nimoy, as well. Check out the kind of media attention Shatner received pre-ST. Landing him on ST was the heart and engine which made that series go.
Takei has no reason to be bitter when he was not cast as or considered an equal or equal contribution to the success of the series. Look at my Munsters or Batman references, and I believe you will see what I mean.
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Takei. In the documentary/biography, he takes a significant segment and discusses his grievances regarding Shatner.
Exactly. It's like winning the lottery, and still complaining incessantly about that guy who cut you off in traffic a year ago.
Let it go, George, please. Life is too short to waste being bitter.
Despite what we've been told, I don't believe that Shatner is 1/3 the jerk that he's been made out to be.
Despite what we've been told, I don't believe that Shatner is 1/3 the jerk that he's been made out to be.
You are talking about the series while it was being first aired. A series that was not very successful (under that metric). But later, it became more. So, while I agree with you on one hand, I disagree that they (the others) are not integral to what the series became.
That's even more speculation than I give really.
Yes, actually I do. During the time I stated I was putting in 65 hour weeks - as a normality. So yes, I do. Now I am more successful and yes, I will travel to attend an old "team" member's occasion at times. I would not say I do not know them at all. I might say I do not know them well. But hundreds of hours spent together?....how could I say I do not know them? That's silly. You spend years on the same project you don't have that option.
Yeah - I beg to differ. My father told me (in the early 70's) Kelly and Nimoy were both well know western actors and Doohan had a superior roll in in a previous series Shattner was part of. In fact, I have now seen many of those movies.....MOVIES at least for Kelly - not TV. The Shat man was a single episode kind of guy. I am a super fan of Bill (I have a "Body by Shattner" shirt no less), but seriously his acting "chops" were no better to brag about and frankly, as much as I adore TOS, I can't pretend any of that was stellar acting. Really?
The series itself while in production was lack luster (by the same industry you use to describe Bill as the star)....it became a phenom after the fact. And all of it (as a whole) was that phenom. Sure, Takei et al. were not the star as intended, but became so later (explaining the importance of that appears to be difficult).
Niether you no I can can assess if Takei has no reason. I only offer a possible explanation and it seems reasonable to me. Yet, I agree, he should have let it go long ago.
As much as I like "Kirk" (who shaped my life) and am a fan of Bill, Shattner is not or has ever been a superstar or stellar actor. Which is why most folk don't know him for any of the 100+ other oles he has played......but they know him as Kirk.
You talk about the show as aired - important....but as aired it's not important. The ST phenom occurred after it was canceled.
At any rate, warp, or speed, we are all talking about the personal feelings of others. And since we don't know Bill or George (or at least I do not), I can't really lay down a judgement.....other than to say I like it better when everyone are friends.
Anyways....it's late. Any way do we argue about such things. Whatever the realities, it is sad when folks don't get along. I wish they could. And I am no0t going to pretend to know the truth.
No need to jump down someone's throat.
I assumed as much. However, we're talking about both men and both men appeared in the film. And J. Allen used only a proper noun not a specific men, so I just asked for clarification.
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The pre-Trek careers of Shatner, Nimoy and Kelley and Doohan were quite different from each other. Kelley was a character actor who primarily worked in Westerns in the role of the heavy. Not really a headliner. Like actors such as Nehemiah Persoff, Kelley was steadily employed, but most people wouldn't know him by name. Doohan played many small parts. I still spot him in many old shows, but never in anything that stands out other than it's James Doohan. Nimoy took a while to get the TV career going, but again, didn't make a huge splash pre-Trek. A good actor who found plentiful work, he didn't gain recognition until Star Trek. Just compare his parts in the same shows Shatner did: Twilight Zone, Shatner was a lead twice. Nimoy: supporting small part one time. The Man from UNCLE: Shatner was the lead guest star. Nimoy played a smaller part as a enemy agent. Shatner usually carried the load in his parts. Nimoy was usually down the ladder. So, no, the careers were not equal.
William Shatner's casting was considered a coup at the time. He was the headliner, more famous for his many, many guest roles and stage career. He was often recognized in the press with positive reviews and was considered a fine actor with a big career ahead of him. He was the highest paid member of the cast and was given a cut of the series profits (if any). The series was initially structured around his character. Not his and one or two or six others, but his. It was about Captain Kirk and the crew of the Enterprise. After NBC noticed how well Nimoy was bringing Spock to life and the audience latched onto him, the series focused on the team. De Kelley was also noticed at around the same time and so on. Whatever the fans thought of the show later is kind of irrelevant in regards to Shatner's relationship with the supporting cast because it was not an ensemble. It was a star driven vehicle. Shatner was the star, Nimoy and later Kelley were co-stars. The rest were featured.
As a featured player, Takei did not work with Shatner full time. So, really, it wasn't even like working with your staff at the office for 45-60 hours a week. Takei was a part-timer. The guy in the mailroom. Shatner was on set every damned day, working with his co-stars and the guest actors. Unless an episode took place primarily on the bridge, or Sulu was in the landing party, Shatner and Takei didn't really work together that much. And if they barely saw each other, then they certainly didn't pal around. So, absolutely, when Shatner says he doesn't "know" Takei, he probably really doesn't.
So, okay, you're the busiest employee at a job for three years. You see one guy maybe once or twice a week during that time, and not even every week (Takei missed a lot of episodes). You don't get to know him. The job ends, you don't see the guy for ten years until you start working with him again on and off every couple of years, still barely spending any time with him. And, you discover, that the guy doesn't even like you! So, if 17 years after you last saw this part-time employee who didn't like you, the guy gets married and he invites you...would you go??? If you say yes, you're either the greatest damned guy on the planet or I'm calling bullshit. I wouldn't even expect to be invited.
Shatner and Nimoy? Yeah, those guys were (eventually) best friends and did stuff together. Takei? He, Nichelle and Walter (and even Doohan), were part-timers at an old job. They weren't Shatner's friends or One Big Happy Family. The difference is, Shatner never stopped getting work. And that is the basis of the bad feelings.
William Shatner's casting was considered a coup at the time. He was the headliner, more famous for his many, many guest roles and stage career. He was often recognized in the press with positive reviews and was considered a fine actor with a big career ahead of him. He was the highest paid member of the cast and was given a cut of the series profits (if any). The series was initially structured around his character. Not his and one or two or six others, but his. It was about Captain Kirk and the crew of the Enterprise. After NBC noticed how well Nimoy was bringing Spock to life and the audience latched onto him, the series focused on the team. De Kelley was also noticed at around the same time and so on. Whatever the fans thought of the show later is kind of irrelevant in regards to Shatner's relationship with the supporting cast because it was not an ensemble. It was a star driven vehicle. Shatner was the star, Nimoy and later Kelley were co-stars. The rest were featured.
As a featured player, Takei did not work with Shatner full time. So, really, it wasn't even like working with your staff at the office for 45-60 hours a week. Takei was a part-timer. The guy in the mailroom. Shatner was on set every damned day, working with his co-stars and the guest actors. Unless an episode took place primarily on the bridge, or Sulu was in the landing party, Shatner and Takei didn't really work together that much. And if they barely saw each other, then they certainly didn't pal around. So, absolutely, when Shatner says he doesn't "know" Takei, he probably really doesn't.
So, okay, you're the busiest employee at a job for three years. You see one guy maybe once or twice a week during that time, and not even every week (Takei missed a lot of episodes). You don't get to know him. The job ends, you don't see the guy for ten years until you start working with him again on and off every couple of years, still barely spending any time with him. And, you discover, that the guy doesn't even like you! So, if 17 years after you last saw this part-time employee who didn't like you, the guy gets married and he invites you...would you go??? If you say yes, you're either the greatest damned guy on the planet or I'm calling bullshit. I wouldn't even expect to be invited.
Shatner and Nimoy? Yeah, those guys were (eventually) best friends and did stuff together. Takei? He, Nichelle and Walter (and even Doohan), were part-timers at an old job. They weren't Shatner's friends or One Big Happy Family. The difference is, Shatner never stopped getting work. And that is the basis of the bad feelings.
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This.
There's no way Shatner could have capitalized on it. I saw To Be Takei, and overall I liked it, but Shatner did only one thing in that movie -- get interviewed. Nothing more than that. And there wasn't really a sense of antagonism or agitation there either, at least from what I gathered from him. And its placement in the documentary was fairly odd, to say the least -- had no bearing on his stage work or his online popularity.
One thing to note though, and it was discussed elsewhere on these boards, but when Takei came under attack a few weeks ago on social media, Shatner came to his defense. That's pretty big of him considering that it's Takei.
I thought Shatner even apologized in the past saying he did make recommendations for script/dialogue changes in what he thought was in the best interest of the show which resulted in less screen/speaking time for some.
It is a shame this has continued to fester and wish it could be left alone even if he there is no peace.
Btw, things like this quoted from IMDB will most likely always give some support to Takei's opinion. Know what episode it is from, without looking?
"Scotty's only dialogue is the statement, "Everything's vanished". Sulu doesn't speak at all; he simply nods "yes" and "no" when queried by Kirk, and later cries "aha!" before engaging Kirk in hand-to-hand combat."
It is a shame this has continued to fester and wish it could be left alone even if he there is no peace.
Btw, things like this quoted from IMDB will most likely always give some support to Takei's opinion. Know what episode it is from, without looking?
"Scotty's only dialogue is the statement, "Everything's vanished". Sulu doesn't speak at all; he simply nods "yes" and "no" when queried by Kirk, and later cries "aha!" before engaging Kirk in hand-to-hand combat."
It's not an episode I watch very much, but I'm going to say "Catspaw."
But it doesn't give support to Takei in my mind, because the show would not be better with more of Sulu talking.
It is indeed "Catspaw." I am not sure if Takei had any lines in earlier script versions. I just happened to run across it and I assume there are some folks who might view this blurb as Takei and Doohan didn't have much if any speaking time.
I wasn't trying to imply it should support Takei. Just threw it out as bit of trivia and I just by coincidence saw it while reading the thread.
An important point that I think should not be overlooked is that Shatner is in fact a jerky and egotistical person. Whether someone should have expected more from a coworker and complained about it all this time is a separate issue, but it doesn't absolve Shatner from being a jerk, which he's all but admitted in his later years. So I really don't think George had no basis for bashing Shatner. He's just turned it into too much of a schtick.
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