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Shatner: "I hope that movie bombs"

^^^That's for sure. And they pretty much lost interest in TNG, too--they weren't exactly champing at the bit for the last two movies.

A lot of those TNG fans were openly contemptuous of TOS*--so much so that, in order to remain in the public consciousness, the TOS folks began to rub thirty-year-old dirty laundry in our face regarding Shatner (the hoi polloi does enjoy a good behind the scenes soap opera). Returning to Kirk and Spock will not interest them in the slightest.

*And I'll freely admit that it helped push me into the TOS supremacist camp.
 
Brutal Strudel said:
^^^That's for sure. And they pretty much lost interest in TNG, too--they weren't exactly champing at the bit for the last two movies.

Taking TNG off of television was the biggest mistake made with the Franchise since NBC cancelled TOS.

At the time, it obviously looked sensible to the studio - costs rose every season, the interest of local stations in back-end syndication had an upper limit, and so forth.

At that time and in the following years, of course, it became increasingly common for successful shows on the networks to stretch their runs out past ten years even in the face of mounting costs; many of these shows went into back-end runs while still in production.

And no one at the time anticipated big bucks from DVD sellthrough, either.

TNG could have evolved - there could have been cast changes (similar to shows like "M*A*S*H" or "E.R.") as necessary to keep it going.

Now, again, at the time this probably didn't seem desirable - ratings do tend to decrease over time, after all, even for the most successful of long-running shows ("E.R." became a shadow of what it was) - but that was because Paramount believed that the alternative was to launch follow-on shows (starting with DS9) that might be as successful or more successful than TNG. After all, the property could be tweaked and "improved" in ways intended both to simplify production and control costs and to enhance the drama of the setting.

That didn't work - not commercially, at least. The first sequel series started losing viewers within a few weeks and never stopped. Most TNG viewers just liked TNG, not "Star Trek."

The second mistake in judgment was the assumption that TNG could segue into films successfully. The studio was looking to TOS as the model - no one seems to have asked themselves "how many other successful TV shows have an afterlife in movies?"

It's hard to get the majority of people to pay to see something in a movie that they've been getting for free (more or less) every week in their living rooms. It happens rarely, with shows that have been out of production for quite a number of years - not shifting from a free medium to a pay venue in less than a year.

Let's see how the "Sex And The City" movie does. I'm sincerely interested and unprejudiced about the likely outcome, though I've never paid any attention to the show.

TOS may still be a unique phenomenon in TV history. TNG most definitely was not - it was simply a very successful TV series with a loyal following, and what happened when it went off the air was what happens to the audiences of almost all successful TV series when they end...the viewers go elsewhere and forget about the show. These days, maybe they collect it on DVD. Maybe they sample sequel series featuring one or more of the characters, maybe they sample new series featuring one or more of the actors playing other characters. Neither of those strategies has a very high success rate. For every "Frasier" there are dozens of shows like "AfterMASH," "Phyllis," "Joey" (not to mention however many pilots were made featuring the supporting cast of "Seinfeld" before Julia Louis-Dreyfus managed to keep a show on the air for more than one season).

Addendum: let's remember that the movie-going public wasn't champing at the bit for the last two TOS movies, either. One bombed and the last was a disappointment to the studio, which hastened the switch-over to a new strategy (the TNG movies). So TOS, "iconic" as it was and is, managed only two more movies than TNG before it crashed.
 
Brutal Strudel said:
^^^That's for sure. And they pretty much lost interest in TNG, too--they weren't exactly champing at the bit for the last two movies.
Are you surprised? None of those wasn't even good SCI-FI, let a good movie.
 
Flavius Scrooge said:
Brutal Strudel said:
^^^That's for sure. And they pretty much lost interest in TNG, too--they weren't exactly champing at the bit for the last two movies.
Are you surprised? None of those wasn't even good SCI-FI, let a good movie.

Which can be accurately said of at least half the TOS movies as well.
 
North Pole-aris said:
TNG could have evolved - there could have been cast changes (similar to shows like "M*A*S*H" or "E.R.") as necessary to keep it going.

Interesting thought..

TOS may still be a unique phenomenon in TV history. TNG most definitely was not - it was simply a very successful TV series with a loyal following, and what happened when it went off the air was what happens to the audiences of almost all successful TV series when they end...the viewers go elsewhere and forget about the show.

Point well taken. However, how many of those successful shows were part of a rather eloborate fictional universe? How many *Frazier* conventions are there these days?

I admit, it's rather easy today to second guess the key decisions about those abysmal TNG movies, but abysmal there were.
 
Flavius Scrooge said:
Point well taken. However, how many of those successful shows were part of a rather eloborate fictional universe?

The "elaborate fictional universe" of Trek was something that most TNG viewers were aware of only to the extent of seeing it on TNG.

In fact, most of it was "elaborated" as a result of TNG - again, most people who watch a TV series don't know and can care less about RPGs, model kits, comic books and even novels and novelizations. "Star Trek" exists, for the vast majority of people who have sampled it, only as television shows and movies.

Most people who watch television and make a television show a hit care mainly about the characters they see every week and the actors who play them. The understanding of this on the part of the business is why the anthology series died in the 1960s, and why once-good shows can continue to limp along year after year even when quality and novelty decline - loyalty to the characters.

Even that loyalty to characters can rarely be transplanted to a sequel series, and most people are not going to follow a sequel because of fascination with an "elaborate fictional universe" - no one really would have suggested that they would, prior to TNG, and DS9/Voyager/Enterprise subsequently proved that assumption to be wrong.
 
North Pole-aris said:

Addendum: let's remember that the movie-going public wasn't champing at the bit for the last two TOS movies, either. One bombed and the last was a disappointment to the studio, which hastened the switch-over to a new strategy (the TNG movies). So TOS, "iconic" as it was and is, managed only two more movies than TNG before it crashed.

True--and this is where TNG hurt TOS as Star Trek rather tan as TNG ("The Worst of Both Worlds"): as you pointed it out. it's tough to get people in theatres to see what's free on the tube. TNG was two seasons in when the abysmal TFF came out. Trek satiated casual fans--who used to have to wait upwards of two years to see Star Trek and were now getting it weekly--faced with a glut of event movies that summer and bad word of mouth (and I bad-mouthed it fiercely) wisely stayed home. TUC was "more like it" (though not much more) but by then TNG had finally gotten its second wind and the memory of TFF was enough to keep what was obviously a low budget rush job from breaking the bank. Funny thing is, the critics and audiences were rather kind to TUC and it still didn't help it much.
 
Flavius Scrooge said:
Brutal Strudel said:
^^^That's for sure. And they pretty much lost interest in TNG, too--they weren't exactly champing at the bit for the last two movies.
Are you surprised? None of those wasn't even good SCI-FI, let a good movie.

Bad movies and bad SF often break the bank: ID4, Tarnsformers, etc. But neither of those TNG movies was spectacular enough to put butts in seats. Visually and viscerally, those movies were dead.
 
Brutal Strudel said:Funny thing is, the critics and audiences were rather kind to TUC and it still didn't help it much.

It's not an awful movie. It's a rather dull and familiar and unimaginative movie, as well as being clearly made on the cheap as you note and all of those qualities limited its appeal to a larger audience.

TUC is sort of the "Battle For The Planet Of The Apes" of the TOS film series: kind of glad to see the familiar actors get a chance to wrap it up, but one has the feeling that it's a bit past time to do that.

Supposedly, David Gerrold was once asked how many "Star Trek" movies he thought Paramount would make and he quipped "One too many."
 
I remember loving it at the time despite its obvious faults. My college buddies and I went to see its first matinee on opening day and later, with another set of college chums, I saw it on a spur-of-the-moment midnight show. Hasn't aged well, though.
 
I remember liking it but noticing at the time that a lot of it just wasn't up to snuff (the writing, certainly). I think I saw it twice on its initial release - I'm a life-long trekkie, I saw Star Trek 5 twice (okay, the first time was free).
 
Brutal Strudel said:
Flavius Scrooge said:
Brutal Strudel said:
^^^That's for sure. And they pretty much lost interest in TNG, too--they weren't exactly champing at the bit for the last two movies.
Are you surprised? None of those wasn't even good SCI-FI, let a good movie.

Bad movies and bad SF often break the bank: ID4, Tarnsformers, etc. But neither of those TNG movies was spectacular enough to put butts in seats. Visually and viscerally, those movies were dead.

There's always the exception that breaks the rule. I don't think ID4 is a bad movie, it has a classic SCI-FI plot, is very well made, it actually has it both ways, the White House gets blown up and it gets all flag-happy at the end, and there's Will Smith. That movie does have a heart.

Transformers is just well-made pornography.
 
North Pole-aris said:
Most people who watch television and make a television show a hit care mainly about the characters they see every week and the actors who play them. The understanding of this on the part of the business is why the anthology series died in the 1960s, and why once-good shows can continue to limp along year after year even when quality and novelty decline - loyalty to the characters.

Even that loyalty to characters can rarely be transplanted to a sequel series, and most people are not going to follow a sequel because of fascination with an "elaborate fictional universe" - no one really would have suggested that they would, prior to TNG, and DS9/Voyager/Enterprise subsequently proved that assumption to be wrong.

Well, one doesn't have to cite Aristotles Poetics to make the point that plot and character are most important. That could very well be the reason why *Danny Crane* is not in the movie, he'd be just like a black hole. Still, he's Danny Crane, the icon, presiding over this pretty rich space of modern mythical tales.

Supermans Return did something remarkable, I think it was the first successful 'heart"- transplant in movie history. So, it can be done.
 
^
Probably not. Especially given the fact that tptb are trying to keep a lid on details of the movie.
 
North Pole-aris said:
Taking TNG off of television was the biggest mistake made with the Franchise since NBC cancelled TOS.

At the time, it obviously looked sensible to the studio - costs rose every season, the interest of local stations in back-end syndication had an upper limit, and so forth.

The other major factor in ending TNG was Paramount's desire to create their own network. Warners was starting their network and it was now or never for Paramount. Without a Star Trek series, to use as a bait to get the TV stations to sign up, they had no chance. So TNG had to end since they didn't want to have 3 Star Trek series at the same time. I don't know what kind of contract they had with the TV stations for TNG, moving TNG to UPN may not have been an option.

It would been interesting to see TNG go beyond 7 seasons. If actors like PS had left then it could have ended up like SG-1 which became a very lackluster show once RDA left (I wish SG-1 had ended after 6 or 7 seasons). But if Ron Moore and Braga stayed on the writing staff they may have been able to make it work.
 
I think TNG could have been a successful movie franchise. I thought First Contact was an enjoyable movie and that it did well enough on its own. Unfortunately, Inserrection and Nemesis were very underwhelming and eroded a lot of good will people had towards TNG and Trek movies.

I was one of those people who was very critical of Shatner's comments to the movie, but now I think I was wrong. There very well may be some sour grapes there, but I find it hard to believe Shatner really wishes the movie to fail, especially when his best friend Nimoy is going to be in it.

At this stage he's probably sick and tired of people asking him about a movie he's not involved in over and over and over again, so I completely believe he's was being sarcastic if he made such a remark. Shatner's probably been around enough that he should know better than to make a remark that can be taken out of context, but eh, I could care less at this point. I don't think people are going to refuse to see the movie just because Shatner supposedly doesn't want it to succeed (and I sincerely don't believe he really does).
 
Shatner isn't an idiot. The last thing he would <i>ever</i> do is diss the movie just because JJ and Orci wouldn't write him in. If this movie takes off like Star Wars did in 1977, and I think it will, Shatner will be doing the Convention Circuit again, skimming the cream off the top.

Believe me, nobody, but NOBODY, wants this film to soar more than William Shatner. It's money in his pocket, even if he never speaks a line of dialogue in the film.

He and his agent have already talked this through.
 
North Pole-aris said:
Brutal Strudel said:
^^^That's for sure. And they pretty much lost interest in TNG, too--they weren't exactly champing at the bit for the last two movies.

Taking TNG off of television was the biggest mistake made with the Franchise since NBC cancelled TOS.
<SNIP!>

*shrug*, Yes, seems pretty much what happened in hindsite. I feel this is pretty on the mark.

North Pole-aris said:
Brutal Strudel said:Funny thing is, the critics and audiences were rather kind to TUC and it still didn't help it much.

It's not an awful movie. It's a rather dull and familiar and unimaginative movie, as well as being clearly made on the cheap as you note and all of those qualities limited its appeal to a larger audience.

TUC is sort of the "Battle For The Planet Of The Apes" of the TOS film series: kind of glad to see the familiar actors get a chance to wrap it up, but one has the feeling that it's a bit past time to do that.

Supposedly, David Gerrold was once asked how many "Star Trek" movies he thought Paramount would make and he quipped "One too many."

"It's not an awful movie." ... high praise. :lol:
 
section9 said:
Shatner will be doing the Convention Circuit again, skimming the cream off the top.

Dude, people like Shatner "do the convention circuit" for one of two reasons:

1) To promote a project they're involved in;
2) Because they need the money.

Shatner doesn't want to have to do conventions - they're not an opportunity, they're a chore.
 
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