sf/f TV development news - 2013

[Guy Gardener]

Re: sf/f TV development news - 2012

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1127893/

2009.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1127893/

2012.

2009 is revolutionary war in space.

2012 is all energy going missing.

 

[Harvey]

Re: sf/f TV development news - 2012

I'm not familiar with Four Brothers, but Outland and Star Wars are not Westerns. There may be thematic echoes or homages, but the definition of Western includes a certain spectrum of time and place.

Would your definition exclude The Proposition and Quigley Down Under, then, since they're set in the Australian outback?

Star Wars is also an homage to The Seven Samurai, but that doesn't make it Japanese. Similarly, Firefly, which is called a "sci-fi Western," isn't a Western at all; it just borrows themes and imagery from that genre to inform its own identity.

An approach to genre that doesn't take usage into account and totally disregards iconography as a generic marker doesn't strike me as very useful.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Re: sf/f TV development news - 2012

I thought Star Wars was inspired more by Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress. The Last Starfighter was more derivative of The Seven Samurai, but then so was A Bug's life as were probably several dozen other films.

I had always heard Seven Samurai, but either way the point remains intact.

Also, something can be more than one genre. Genres are not zero sum games.

Exactly. It makes more sense to apply multiple adjectives to something than one generic descriptor.

Would your definition exclude The Proposition and Quigley Down Under, then, since they're set in the Australian outback?

Yes.

An approach to genre that doesn't take usage into account and totally disregards iconography as a generic marker doesn't strike me as very useful.

Each genre is defined in different ways, with emphasis on different aspects. The definition of Romance weighs heavily toward character relationship, the definition of Mystery weighs heavily toward a very specific situational aspect-- the definition of Western happens to rely heavily on time and place.

 

[Christopher]

Re: sf/f TV development news - 2012

I don't know why someone would tell you that Star Wars was an homage to The Seven Samurai. Their stories are very different. SS is about a village being terrorized by bandits and recruiting a motley group of defenders who teach them how to defend themselves.

As for the definition of "Western," it's true that nominally it refers to a story taking place in the American West during the frontier era, but I think that's taking it too literally. After all, the version of the American West seen in movies and TV never really existed; it's a mythology created by the makers of motion pictures. So in a way that makes it timeless, a set of storytelling symbols and tropes that don't literally correspond to a specific place or time and thus can be mapped onto other settings.

 

[Skellington]

Re: sf/f TV development news - 2012

Seven Samurai begat The Magnificent Seven, which begat Battle Beyond the Stars with Star Wars. Therefore, conceptually they're in-laws of a kind.

 

[Christopher]

Re: sf/f TV development news - 2012

Seven Samurai begat The Magnificent Seven, which begat Battle Beyond the Stars with Star Wars. Therefore, conceptually they're in-laws of a kind.

Err... Star Wars came out three years before Battle Beyond the Stars, and the latter was obviously a knockoff of the former as much as of The Seven Samurai. So that doesn't prove a damn thing.

 

[Skellington]

Re: sf/f TV development news - 2012

^ The fact that BBTS came out after Star Wars was already referenced in my post. BBTS is Star Wars meets The Magnificent Seven and so the connection of Seven Samurai to Star Wars is that both influenced Battle Beyond The Stars, which was my point.

 

[Christopher]

Re: sf/f TV development news - 2012

^ The fact that BBTS came out after Star Wars was already referenced in my post.

Well, you said "which begat Battle Beyond the Stars with Star Wars." In retrospect, I suppose you meant that The Magnificent Seven, along with Star Wars, begat BBtS. However, that isn't immediately evident because of the awkward word order you chose, which implies that you're saying that TMS began both BBtS and SW simultaneously.

BBTS is Star Wars meets The Magnificent Seven and so the connection of Seven Samurai to Star Wars is that both influenced Battle Beyond The Stars, which was my point.

And I don't think that point is valid. Yes, obviously BBtS is a ripoff of both A and B, but that doesn't prove that B is in turn inspired by A. One work can borrow from two otherwise completely unrelated works. For instance, Total Recall was based on a Philip K. Dick story and its director was influenced by the style of Alfred Hitchcock thrillers, but that doesn't mean that Hitchcock was inspired by Dick or vice versa.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Re: sf/f TV development news - 2012

I don't know why someone would tell you that Star Wars was an homage to The Seven Samurai. Their stories are very different. SS is about a village being terrorized by bandits and recruiting a motley group of defenders who teach them how to defend themselves.

Beats me, since I've never seen Seven Samurai. But I've been hearing and reading it for decades. A quick Google search came up with a bunch of references, including this one.

As for the definition of "Western," it's true that nominally it refers to a story taking place in the American West during the frontier era, but I think that's taking it too literally. After all, the version of the American West seen in movies and TV never really existed; it's a mythology created by the makers of motion pictures. So in a way that makes it timeless, a set of storytelling symbols and tropes that don't literally correspond to a specific place or time and thus can be mapped onto other settings.

Like anything else, a Western can be stylized, mythologized or realistic. You can map the tropes onto another genre, but it doesn't take the genre with it. You could tell the same basic story as High Noon in ancient Herculaneum, but it would be silly to call that a Western.

 

[Christopher]

Re: sf/f TV development news - 2012

^What you're overlooking is that there are at least a couple of levels of defining genre, the semantics and the syntax. Semantics are the vocabulary, the surface content, the pieces used to assemble the story; syntax is the underlying structure and set of ideas underlying the story. It's possible for a story to combine the syntax of one genre with the semantics of a different genre. For instance, Star Wars uses the semantics of space opera to tell a story with the syntax of sword-and-sorcery high fantasy. Outland uses the semantics of space opera to tell a story with the syntax of High Noon. So is it a Western? Semantically, no, but syntactically, hell yes, blatantly so. It's not a simple yes/no question, because one story can fit in more than one genre.

 

[AviTrek]

Re: sf/f TV development news - 2012

Revolution - the space war series, that is - had its pilot episode aired on Sky years ago.

Years ago? The hell?

Why did I not hear about this...did it not air in the US at all? I would have liked to see it...

Never aired in the US. Failed pilots never air in the US unless they are ordered as a mini/back door pilot. I've looked online and I've never found a source for it either. I doubt we'll ever get a chance to see it in the US.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: sf/f TV development news - 2012

Speaking of failed pilots: Did Doorways ever air?

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Re: sf/f TV development news - 2012

Never heard of it. IMDB lists this "Doorways" from 2011:

A financially oppressed single mother unexpectedly gets an opportunity to fulfill her shelved dreams of singing and financial independence through an unexpected series of events.

Booooooring...I prefer the "Doorways" from 2006:

Your mind is the key.

That's the way to pique people's interest, short & sweet!

And then there's 1993's contribution:

Cat, a fugitive from a parallel Earth ruled by aliens, lands on "our" Earth in the middle of a freeway...

That cat better have nine lives, wakka wakka!

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Re: sf/f TV development news - 2012

This idea just popped in my head: Zachary Quinto as Doctor Strange. He's a bonafide movie actor now, so he needs to find his superhero alter ego sooner or later.

If he was a tad more conventionally handsome, I'd nominate him for Sub-Mariner. If there was only a way to cross him with Chris Pine...

 

[Christopher]

Re: sf/f TV development news - 2012

Failed pilots never air in the US unless they are ordered as a mini/back door pilot.

Well, "rarely" rather than "never." At least, if it's "never" these days, it wasn't always. Networks used to burn off failed pilots as "specials" or "showcases." But that was back when networks still showed things like specials and movies of the week. Network programming seems to have become narrower in focus these days.

Speaking of failed pilots: Did Doorways ever air?

Do you mean the George R. R. Martin alternate-timelines pilot that came along a year or two before Sliders? As far as I know, no, it never aired.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Re: sf/f TV development news - 2012

I'm so over LOST-type shows--I've decided to not watch any show that dares follow that storytelling style. It'd be nice if we could get at least one or two more general premise shows that didn't depend on a shitload of mysteries drawn out for years and whose storylines aren't all interwoven.

Is it really too much to ask for a small ensemble of 7-9 characters, 2-4 parallel-arcs that play out over the season and are definitively resolved in episode 22 without the need for out of order flashbacks, ADD pacing, tons of angst, a large cast with tons of backstories, writers leaving the audience whimpering because of the insane amount of questions and constant confusion. And it isn't like this style of storytelling has a good track record i.e. Surface, Invasion, Daybreak, LOST, Heroes post S1, V, Alcatraz, Persons Unknown, Happy Town,Flash Forward, Harpers Island, The River, American version of Life on Mars, Kidnapped, The Nine, Vanished to name a few

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: sf/f TV development news - 2012

Whosoever was making One Tree Hill, probably has something for you in the next couple months.

Spyshcool for girls

 

[Harvey]

Re: sf/f TV development news - 2012

Would your definition exclude The Proposition and Quigley Down Under, then, since they're set in the Australian outback?

Yes.

In that case, your definition is too limiting to be useful. In reviews, those films were referred to as "Westerns." In advertising, the iconography of the Western was emphasized (with each film belonging to a separate cycle of Westerns). In the video store the movies would be found next to other Westerns. On IMDB, the genre listing is "Western."

If a Western has to take place in the American West, then The Magnificent Seven doesn't really qualify, either. The Mexican villagers briefly cross the border to recruit some American gunslingers, but 90% of the proceedings take place in Mexico. Or do Westerns set mostly or entirely in Mexico get a pass because of the country's proximity to the West?

Christopher is on the right track with his discussion of syntactic and semantic elements of genre. Rick Altman's book Film/Genre is a pretty smart book on the subject, and not too academic.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Re: sf/f TV development news - 2012

Outland uses the semantics of space opera to tell a story with the syntax of High Noon. So is it a Western? Semantically, no, but syntactically, hell yes, blatantly so. It's not a simple yes/no question, because one story can fit in more than one genre.

So if a Western uses the syntax of Space Opera, then it's a Space Opera?

In that case, your definition is too limiting to be useful.

Even if there were examples that fell into a gray area, I'd hardly call the definition of a Western too limiting to be useful.

In reviews, those films were referred to as "Westerns." In advertising, the iconography of the Western was emphasized (with each film belonging to a separate cycle of Westerns). In the video store the movies would be found next to other Westerns. On IMDB, the genre listing is "Western."

So what? As noted, all sorts of non-SF material is lumped under "Sci Fi" by reviewers and Blockbuster clerks who don't know any better. That's sort of what kicked off the discussion.

If a Western has to take place in the American West, then The Magnificent Seven doesn't really qualify, either. The Mexican villagers briefly cross the border to recruit some American gunslingers, but 90% of the proceedings take place in Mexico. Or do Westerns set mostly or entirely in Mexico get a pass because of the country's proximity to the West?

It's still the North American West. Borders have nothing to do with it. The classification of a movie as a Western doesn't depend on whether or not it's set before or after California became a state.

 

[Christopher]

Re: sf/f TV development news - 2012

So if a Western uses the syntax of Space Opera, then it's a Space Opera?

You're missing the point, which is that there's no need to force every work of fiction into a single genre category. A single work can fit into more than one genre at the same time.

So what? As noted, all sorts of non-SF material is lumped under "Sci Fi" by reviewers and Blockbuster clerks who don't know any better. That's sort of what kicked off the discussion.

And that's a straw man. There are also plenty of well-informed SF/fantasy creators and critics, including our own Greg Cox and myself, who understand that a lot of speculative/fantastic fiction actually does blur the lines between categories such as science fiction, fantasy, and horror. By insisting that those categories are rigid and mutually impermeable and that only the ignorant would believe they could be blended, you are simply exposing your own ignorance. Genre is a starting point, not a straitjacket.