SF and People of Color
- Thread starter captainduprix
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The guy who plays Ronin is a white dude from Hawaii. Just thought I'd poke one hole in your argument.
Shran's main interaction was with Archer, an obviously "pink skin" toned guy. It was meant as an insult first, and then a term of enderment between two allies later.
The commander of the fleet is played by Edward James Olmos, a Latino male.
So there.
Did ya miss Deep Space Nine?
Will Smith actually got his start in music, not television. The music videos & hit songs led Quincy Jones to developin' Fresh Prince of Bel-Air for Will Smith.
And Denzel is not just an Oscar nominated actor, he's an Oscar WINNIN' actor.
I have little knowledge of the US actor pool but maybe the lack of non-white characters is due to the lack of non-white actors applying for such roles. A year or two ago I remember reading an article that lamented the lack of African American talent that was coming through in that year. As for lack of diversity, you should see Australian TV.
I'm sorry, but this excuse is complete BULL!
Take a look at Stargate for a second, they usually have human or alien races that are almost all white. However, they never have a problem finding black, latino, or asians to fill out the ranks of the Jaf'fa. In fact the strinking thing about the "noble savage" races is that they have a disproportionate number of people of color. Even the modern Klingons have had a disproportionate number of black actors. Other shows seem to be able to find minorities. Why can't sci-fi? Both Heroes and Lost managed to come up with some diversity, why do more traditional sci-fi shows find it so hard.
Some shows are down right insulting about it. I love Firefly, but I found it totally unacceptable that Joss Whedon created a soceity that was a blend of Chinese and American culture and never showed an asian person. That's like the writers on Kung Fu, back in the 60s, deciding to hire David Karadine because they thought that an asian person would make it "too ethnic."
As for the audience, its not a matter of people "flocking to their own." Its a matter that some people are not used to being in the minority. Minority folks are used to watching shows where most of the cast is white. We identify with the characters that we like, not the ones that look like us (usually because they are not always there). On the whole, white folks (in the US) are not used to having to identify with people that do not look like them. That does not mean that they can't. Some people do. But most aren't used to thinking that hard.
Finally, there is the issue of "default whiteness." In western scifi, the human default is ALWAYS white. Thus "pink skin" is perfectly reasonable despite the fact that most humans are some shade of brown. A character is assumed to be white until someone goes out of their way to show that they are not. For instance, we did not know anything about the ethnicities of anyone on SG:U. They could have picked a black or asian person for the lead role and changed nothing else about the character. But they never really do that. If a character is going to be black, latino, or asian, the writiers usually have to specify that point or else they will probably be filled with a white person. Remember the creators of DS9 SPECIFICALLY chose to put a black man in charge at the outset (just as they did by picking a woman later). Thus the folks that did the hiring were told to fill the roles ONLY with those people. the problem is that consciously or not, if not given the specific directive to fill a role with a minority (or a woman), more ofthen than not it will go to a white dude.
Take a look at Stargate for a second, they usually have human or alien races that are almost all white. However, they never have a problem finding black, latino, or asians to fill out the ranks of the Jaf'fa. In fact the strinking thing about the "noble savage" races is that they have a disproportionate number of people of color. Even the modern Klingons have had a disproportionate number of black actors. Other shows seem to be able to find minorities. Why can't sci-fi? Both Heroes and Lost managed to come up with some diversity, why do more traditional sci-fi shows find it so hard.
Some shows are down right insulting about it. I love Firefly, but I found it totally unacceptable that Joss Whedon created a soceity that was a blend of Chinese and American culture and never showed an asian person. That's like the writers on Kung Fu, back in the 60s, deciding to hire David Karadine because they thought that an asian person would make it "too ethnic."
As for the audience, its not a matter of people "flocking to their own." Its a matter that some people are not used to being in the minority. Minority folks are used to watching shows where most of the cast is white. We identify with the characters that we like, not the ones that look like us (usually because they are not always there). On the whole, white folks (in the US) are not used to having to identify with people that do not look like them. That does not mean that they can't. Some people do. But most aren't used to thinking that hard.
Finally, there is the issue of "default whiteness." In western scifi, the human default is ALWAYS white. Thus "pink skin" is perfectly reasonable despite the fact that most humans are some shade of brown. A character is assumed to be white until someone goes out of their way to show that they are not. For instance, we did not know anything about the ethnicities of anyone on SG:U. They could have picked a black or asian person for the lead role and changed nothing else about the character. But they never really do that. If a character is going to be black, latino, or asian, the writiers usually have to specify that point or else they will probably be filled with a white person. Remember the creators of DS9 SPECIFICALLY chose to put a black man in charge at the outset (just as they did by picking a woman later). Thus the folks that did the hiring were told to fill the roles ONLY with those people. the problem is that consciously or not, if not given the specific directive to fill a role with a minority (or a woman), more ofthen than not it will go to a white dude.
I'd consider "Day Break" a sci-fi series, although we never did find out what was causing Taye Diggs' character to loop through time.
One hopes. Thing is: why would "write what you know" even be relevant in a sci-fi context? This isn't a white writer tackling something like an inner city ghetto or a coup in Africa which they probably have never experienced. It's sci-fi: by definition you've not experienced it, and in most of these shows race is an irrelevant issue, so the colour of the character shouldn't make any difference to how the character is written.
Uh, no. The producers of DS9 interviewed people of all ethnic backgrounds and genders for the role of Sisko. They claim their only racial decision was then casting Cirroc Loften to be Sisko's son once Avery Brooks had been chosen.
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
Sometimes we don't see because we choose not to see. NuBSG was used as an example! Sure some black folk screamed about a blackman being replaced by a Korean woman. But you have to admit diversity was there, a not very European looking latino and an east Asian among the main cast.
On the other hand.... Sure the shows are often about a future Earth and at times fans come up with a back story of why crews of ships look like a 1953 US Navy ship.
On the other hand.... Sure the shows are often about a future Earth and at times fans come up with a back story of why crews of ships look like a 1953 US Navy ship.
Actually, he mixed with Hawaiian and Caucasian....
To the casual viewer, it may look like Mayweather (and even Hoshi) are being overlooked. Especially since they are in the future where it is assumed there are many people of color.
And there is an Asian sista portraying a Cylon....although she DOES get beat up a lot, stabbed, and impregnated...
Somewhat better than what Linda Park was given on ENT, but not much.
I agree with everything else you posted....Od0_ital...
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This was something that the boyfriend and I discussed; something I wanted to post on the board.
He actually would like to someday revive a show a la BSG, but I think his worry is more of how he is going to retain control, and have it survive the first season!
(Moreover, he has to get himself in the door).Kudos to the OP who posted this...
I think it just boils down to a good story that can appeal to everyone. No doubt there will be suits who have their own ideas to what people want to see...but it's all about the $$$$.
If the right people are behind a good SF concept, that's a plus.
And too, you have to have a person of color who is willing to 'think outside the box'....
Unfortunately, you do have Tyler Perry
...Too, sci-fi is a hard sell; and it's hard producing a successful show. BSG survived with many because it didn't have aliens. Regardless if the producer, actor/actresses, are black, white, Asian...they'll have to 'bring something new to the table' and have a show that can last.
Hmmm, but they're aliens! Why can't Hispanic/Latino actors be hired as normal-looking individuals as well as aliens?
I've noticed that about the TNG Klingons as well....
Yeah, a lot of us Asians, um, are aware of the lack of Asians in that Chinese influenced society (on 'Firefly') as well....
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I recall Blade the series, and how Blade was the least interesting character on the show. He got better as time went on, but the series pretty much revolved around Krista and Marcus, two white characters. The writers didn't have a clue or probably even much inclination to move the Blade character beyond being a badass, which is an image many people feel comfortable with black people playing. Goyer also sought to make him more thuggish, whereas I think Wesley Snipes portrayed Blade as being more of a stoic, Samuari-like warrior struggling with his two halves and not just a street thug with incredible powers.
I used to have debates on another site about giving Blade a girlfriend-like he's had in the comics-showing more of his life, but everyone, including many blacks-didn't couldn't jibe with the idea that Blade didn't do anything but kill vampires 24/7. Of course, hunting and killing vamps works for a 2 hour movie every few years, but to sustain a TV show, you have to create a more three-dimensional character.
It seemed like many people thought Blade having a relationship, which I consider showing more humanity-would weaken him, when it's never weakened Bruce Wayne, Clark Kent, James Bond, John McClain, etc., etc., etc.
I brought up that example because I think there's still that gap in racial understanding on a personal level that is reflected on big and small screens. I think there is a lack of interaction between many racial groups on a personal, social level which forces one-who isn't willing or able to actually go talk to other races or at least read about them-to fall back on stereotypes or what they perceive "those" people are like for example. And if a characterization or behavior seems out of the 'ordinary' they probably wouldn't think of writing it for a minority character. Thereby, limiting the roles that minority characters might be cast in.
Like I said previously, it's gotten much better, but still there's too much of a tendency to put minorities in the background. Plus, I also wonder about the receptivity of white audiences, who I think the suits gear most genre entertainment toward- to minorities in more lead roles or roles that go beyond the background, the noble savage, the hardass-and usually wrong- boss, etc.
I used to have debates on another site about giving Blade a girlfriend-like he's had in the comics-showing more of his life, but everyone, including many blacks-didn't couldn't jibe with the idea that Blade didn't do anything but kill vampires 24/7. Of course, hunting and killing vamps works for a 2 hour movie every few years, but to sustain a TV show, you have to create a more three-dimensional character.
It seemed like many people thought Blade having a relationship, which I consider showing more humanity-would weaken him, when it's never weakened Bruce Wayne, Clark Kent, James Bond, John McClain, etc., etc., etc.
I brought up that example because I think there's still that gap in racial understanding on a personal level that is reflected on big and small screens. I think there is a lack of interaction between many racial groups on a personal, social level which forces one-who isn't willing or able to actually go talk to other races or at least read about them-to fall back on stereotypes or what they perceive "those" people are like for example. And if a characterization or behavior seems out of the 'ordinary' they probably wouldn't think of writing it for a minority character. Thereby, limiting the roles that minority characters might be cast in.
Like I said previously, it's gotten much better, but still there's too much of a tendency to put minorities in the background. Plus, I also wonder about the receptivity of white audiences, who I think the suits gear most genre entertainment toward- to minorities in more lead roles or roles that go beyond the background, the noble savage, the hardass-and usually wrong- boss, etc.
on BSG, they originally thought Dualla would have a bigger role in the series than she ultimately did. That's just bad luck.
As for 'racial casting', they do try to be as diverse as they can; i.e. the lead male is hispanic Edward James Olmos (don't hispanics now outnumber blacks in the USA or something?....)
either way, YES, people have noticed that; while BSG does try to be "racially diverse" and have not just Europeans, but also prominent hispanics (Adama) and Asians (Grace Park), they don't have many black (African) "prominent" characters. But really, they thought Dualla would be as big as Sharon on the show; that just didn't turn out well.
As for 'racial casting', they do try to be as diverse as they can; i.e. the lead male is hispanic Edward James Olmos (don't hispanics now outnumber blacks in the USA or something?....)
either way, YES, people have noticed that; while BSG does try to be "racially diverse" and have not just Europeans, but also prominent hispanics (Adama) and Asians (Grace Park), they don't have many black (African) "prominent" characters. But really, they thought Dualla would be as big as Sharon on the show; that just didn't turn out well.
I remember whe N the casting was announced there was talk at the loss of BLACK POWER. When Olmos got cast as Adama suddenly it was safe for a white man to be Col Tigh as the race card was checked. Then to have Boomer turn Asian was more shocking in the sub community then making Starbuck a woman
Well since we seem to be focusing on the African american population of the US viewing market, we do need to realize that according to the census thats about 12% of the population.
Here's a question what was the last time there was a mainstream successful show with a black lead?
Fresh Prince was an okay performer , Deep Space nine was an okay performer. What else? I have to go back to the early days of the Cosby show to find a mainstream hit that had a African American lead.
Studios get detailed demographic for each and every show and that includes age, sex and race. They are going to gear their product to the largest audience. Right now that is a white audience.
And for those that don't think people are attracted to shows that have similar racial makeup. Well your personal choices don't reflect what the statistics show.
Why is it that Queer as Folk had a huge (percentage wise) gay following when percentage wise they make up anywhere between 2-5% of the population. Why is that the 5 shows that african americans watch (the last time I saw this data was three years ago) were all casts that were primarily African American. After all if race wasn't a factor then it should reflect the percentage of the population. This has also been shown with women, with hispanics, and with children.
Now the one exception to this that I am aware of is, Deep Space Nine. In the data I have seen (and I did see some during its airings), Deep Space Nine never made any list for African American viewing. I don't know if this was because it was syndicated or if african americans simply didn't watch it much (either is possible).
And most large cast shows (scifi wise) do try and cast with a wider range of races. Look at Lost, Look at Heroes, look at all of Trek.
As to them casting entire cultures based on minority races, that is true. And probably for 2 reasons. 1. It does let them expand the amount of minorities shown. And 2 with aliens you often are trying to show something different. And for most of the population that would be someone of a different color. Its a way of showing difference that adds nothing to the budget of the show. We might not like it, but I can understand the business reason for it.
As for Klingons, yes they made them darker skinned, but they had many a white actor playing them. So it wasn't if they were casting only african american actors to play klingons.
Here's a question what was the last time there was a mainstream successful show with a black lead?
Fresh Prince was an okay performer , Deep Space nine was an okay performer. What else? I have to go back to the early days of the Cosby show to find a mainstream hit that had a African American lead.
Studios get detailed demographic for each and every show and that includes age, sex and race. They are going to gear their product to the largest audience. Right now that is a white audience.
And for those that don't think people are attracted to shows that have similar racial makeup. Well your personal choices don't reflect what the statistics show.
Why is it that Queer as Folk had a huge (percentage wise) gay following when percentage wise they make up anywhere between 2-5% of the population. Why is that the 5 shows that african americans watch (the last time I saw this data was three years ago) were all casts that were primarily African American. After all if race wasn't a factor then it should reflect the percentage of the population. This has also been shown with women, with hispanics, and with children.
Now the one exception to this that I am aware of is, Deep Space Nine. In the data I have seen (and I did see some during its airings), Deep Space Nine never made any list for African American viewing. I don't know if this was because it was syndicated or if african americans simply didn't watch it much (either is possible).
And most large cast shows (scifi wise) do try and cast with a wider range of races. Look at Lost, Look at Heroes, look at all of Trek.
As to them casting entire cultures based on minority races, that is true. And probably for 2 reasons. 1. It does let them expand the amount of minorities shown. And 2 with aliens you often are trying to show something different. And for most of the population that would be someone of a different color. Its a way of showing difference that adds nothing to the budget of the show. We might not like it, but I can understand the business reason for it.
As for Klingons, yes they made them darker skinned, but they had many a white actor playing them. So it wasn't if they were casting only african american actors to play klingons.
Levar Burton
Brock Peters
Percy Rodriguez (Commordore Stone, Court Martial)
Don Marshall (Lt. Boma, Galileo Seven)
As for playing non-human characters, what is wrong with that? Imagine how happy some African-American kid must have been to see his/her first dark-skinned Vulcan.
Levar Burton
Brock Peters
Percy Rodriguez (Commordore Stone, Court Martial)
Don Marshall (Lt. Boma, Galileo Seven)
As for playing non-human characters, what is wrong with that? Imagine how happy some African-American kid must have been to see his/her first dark-skinned Vulcan.
I was just pointing out that the 1st post was about how non-Caucasian actors are often the "aliens" in a sci-fi show rather than part of the "human" cast.
Even LeVar Burton played a "Human+" character.
Top 10 Network shows African American Households
Week Ending December 14
- 1 Sunday Night Football
- 2 60 Minutes
- 3 CSI
- 4 Sun Night NFL Pre Kick Off NBC
- 5 CSI Miami
- 6 Eleventh Hour
- 7 Sun Night NFL (PART3)
- 8 Criminal Minds
- 9 CSI NY
- 10 The Mentalist
http://www.medialifemagazine.com/ar...ap_64/A_record_kickoff_for_NFL_postseason.asp
Further ratings breakdowns for the week ending Jan 4, plus other stats availablr there too.
I'd like to see Christopher Judge in some solid sf/f TV role - preferably the lead. I don't think we've seen 5% of what the guy can do. Stargate's writing really doesn't display actors' talents well.
SF/F remains pretty white in the near future, but one of the performances I'm most interested in seeing is Esai Morales as Joseph Adama in Caprica. Morales is one of the key reasons why I gnashed my teeth when Jericho was cancelled.
I also liked Taye Diggs in Day Break, a show that still stands out for me as a true rarity, a show that was way to smart of its own good. I appreciated what they were trying to do, but the format was so opaque that it was beyond the ability of anyone in the audience to follow the plot...
Pfft, they can get Americans for lead roles, because those pay well. Christopher Judge and Edward James Olmos motivated their asses out of LA for a paycheck. That should be no obstacle. As for the minor roles, well they can be whatever, I hardly notice them anyway.
SF/F remains pretty white in the near future, but one of the performances I'm most interested in seeing is Esai Morales as Joseph Adama in Caprica. Morales is one of the key reasons why I gnashed my teeth when Jericho was cancelled.
It's a very mixed bag. Of the shows I watch, SG:A varies widely (and Rachel Luttrell and Jason Momoa are certainly not the strongest in the cast) and so does Heroes (which has had a lousy track record of finding decent nonwhite actors and hanging onto them). Lost has some stellar actors, including Naveen Andrews and Yunjin Kim. The late, lamented Pushing Daisies was very much improved by Chi McBride's comic talents. And that's where I start to draw a blank...
I also liked Taye Diggs in Day Break, a show that still stands out for me as a true rarity, a show that was way to smart of its own good. I appreciated what they were trying to do, but the format was so opaque that it was beyond the ability of anyone in the audience to follow the plot...
Pfft, they can get Americans for lead roles, because those pay well. Christopher Judge and Edward James Olmos motivated their asses out of LA for a paycheck. That should be no obstacle. As for the minor roles, well they can be whatever, I hardly notice them anyway.
The reason I mention previous years is that their are how many shows currently being produced that have a majority african american cast? Lets think about this one.
3. Is the answer. Everybody hates Chris and The Game and Top Model.
Currently Top Model isn't airing. For the week in posted above the only show with a primary african american cast was two episodes of Everybody Hates Chris. Those two episodes averaged out to 1.608 million viewers. Even with it having a large percentage wise african american audience it wouldn't make the top ten, perhaps not even the top twenty.
The previous year 2007 (also in December) when there was twice as many shows with a african american cast.
1 NBC SUNDAY NIGHT FOOTBALL NBC 2,433
2 THE OT FOX 2,421
3 SUNDAY NIGHT NFL PRE-KICK NBC 1,894
4 CSI: MIAMI CBS 1,871
5 THE GAME CW 1,840
6 CSI CBS 1,631
7 GIRLFRIENDS CW 1,586
8 CSI: NY CBS 1,576
9 CRIMINAL MINDS CBS 1,575
10 WITHOUT A TRACE CBS 1,572
Top three were shows about football % wise more african americans in it then the population).
You have for example the Game and Girlfriends in that top ten.
Since I have ratings for every CW show lets look at those.
The Game for that week last year had a total audience of 2.710 million viewers of which 1.840 million were African American. Meaning 68% of its audience was African American. 6 times the percentage of the general population.
Girlfriends for that week had a total audience of 2.810 million viewers of which 1.586 million were african american. Meaning 56% of its audience was african american. 5 times times the percentage of the general population.
Lets see what I can dig up about the rest
Sunday Night football averaged 14.42 million viewers with 2.433 million being african american. Thats roughly 17%, still greater then 12% that make up the general population.
The OT averaged 13.39 million viewers of which 2.421 were African American. Thats roughly 18%, and of course still greater then the percentage of the general population.
I wont use the Sunday Night kick off because if the viewer total I found is accurate (I doubt its for the same thing) because it only shows 5.9 million viewers and that would be a huge increase in african americans watching in relation to the racial makeup of the rest of the population.
CSI-Miami 14.11 million viewers of which 1.871 million were african american (and nearly the same number watched the Game), thats 13. percent. Interesting that it is also slightly higher then national average.
CSI-With a total of 19.87 million viewers of which 1.631 million were african american. Thats 8% of the its audience, 4% less then the general african american audience.
CSI-NY With a total of 14.36 million viewers and 1.576 being african american. A percentage of 11%, just slightly less then the general population.
Criminal Minds - 14.17 million viewers out of which 1.575 being african american. And another 11% of the viewing audience.
Finally Without a Trace 15.15 million viewers with 1.572 being african american. 10% of the viewing audience.
A few things to note. THe only other two shows with african american casts that were on during the full season are Top Model (which was on its off during this time) and Everybody Loves Chris. ELC could have had an audience that was 54% african American and not made the list.
Notice how The Game, and Girlfriends the only scripted programs with African American cast score as high as the overall #1 scripted show of the week. THey normally are between #90 and #100 of all the 5 network shows.
Oh and one other point. With the exception of CSI-NY (Which I have never watched and have no idea of the race of the various members of the cast) all of those scripted shows have a regular cast member who is african american. Again I have no idea about CSI-NY (anyone know?).
But with that one possible exception, not a single show feature a full caucasian cast, or for that matter a cast without an african american in it.
So it shows us two points.
1. Why we don't see more minority based shows.
2. Why its not a bad idea to include multiple races when you cast.
Whatever happened to this "angels" show Chris Judge was talking about anyway?
I liked Day Break too, shame it got canned, I'd have liked to see more.
Sure, but don't Canada have a rule that a big percentage of the cast have to be Canadian to get the tax breaks? So you can get your one or two "Hollywood" types, then you have to get mainly Canadians for the other roles? Not that's a big excuse, there must be good local talent, but as I said, you seem to see the casts revolving through shows produced there.
Levar Burton^plays a non-human character.
Brock Peters
Percy Rodriguez (Commordore Stone, Court Martial)
Don Marshall (Lt. Boma, Galileo Seven)
As for playing non-human characters, what is wrong with that? Imagine how happy some African-American kid must have been to see his/her first dark-skinned Vulcan.
I was just pointing out that the 1st post was about how non-Caucasian actors are often the "aliens" in a sci-fi show rather than part of the "human" cast.
Even LeVar Burton played a "Human+" character.
I vaguely recall a black comedian talking about Worf and Geordi; something like you have one who is blind, and another with a football on his head...
Where you have everyone else who looks descent: Picard, Riker, etc....
I think Tuvok was interesting because he was a Vulcan (and too many, Vulcans are 'sexy') and Tuvok was 'cool'...articulate...
Of course, he (and many other Voyager people) were thrown in the background once 7 of 9 came into the picture.
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It is interesting though, that while television sci-fi is still trying to be diverse, feature film sci-fi is somewhat getting there. (Although, I know there are some who wish for more happening).
Will Smith is known for his sci-fi films (although some have been mixed bags, IMO)...
