Seven of Nine saved the show
- Thread starter John200
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Withers
Captain
I'm inclined to agree- she really did. The character provided for some of the Doctors finer moments. And, the idea of a former Drone who had been a drone for a long while, was really cool too (especially when you compare it with some of the other back stories of the characters on the show.) I think it would have been cool to develop the "Kirk/Spock/McCoy" dynamic on Voyager. They did focus on three characters but their relationship to one another wasn't quite defined enough I guess to convey that sense.
Either way I couldn't agree more- Booting Kes in favor of Seven was probably the best thing the show ever did.
-Withers-
Either way I couldn't agree more- Booting Kes in favor of Seven was probably the best thing the show ever did.
-Withers-
No, she didn't.
Voyager was good already as it was. It had excellent characters and a great premise.
Bringing in Seven was just a stunt to "sex up" the show and get more male teenage viewers.
The worst is that they dumped one of Star Trek's best characters to make the change.
Kes personified the spirit of Star Trek with her will to learn and explore, a spirit which was gone when she was dumped.
Voyager was good already as it was. It had excellent characters and a great premise.
Bringing in Seven was just a stunt to "sex up" the show and get more male teenage viewers.
The worst is that they dumped one of Star Trek's best characters to make the change.
Kes personified the spirit of Star Trek with her will to learn and explore, a spirit which was gone when she was dumped.
What exactly did Kes learn & explore?
All she did was study to become a nurse, something she probably could have done staying on Ocampa.
She wasn't any different of a character upon her departure than she was when she arrived in the first ep.
Kes did nothing to help explore the human condition nor did she provide the much needed conflict the show so desperately needed. Seven in combination with the EMH gives the show all of that.
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I wish they'd have booted Harry or Chakotay instead, since Kes had potential (even if they don't use much of it at all before The Gift).
But Seven was definitely a welcome addition. Especially since she was someone who'd snark at the captain when no one else would.
But Seven was definitely a welcome addition. Especially since she was someone who'd snark at the captain when no one else would.
I think that Seven of Nine was an interesting character, and her addition to the crew was a welcome one. However, I don't think she was responsible for "saving the show" by any means. Placing an emphasis on her character was ultimately a poor decision, IMO, because it shifted the dynamic away from the rest of the ensemble. During the first three seasons, the show tried to pay some attention to each of the characters. Once season four hit and Seven joined the cast, there was a very obvious move to put the spotlight on Janeway, Seven and the Doctor. Everyone else was pushed into the background. This was a poor choice. I also don't think that the writing of the show improved any once Seven joined the crew. VOY is my least favorite of the Trek series. The show never lived up to its potential, either in the early seasons, or in the latter. Seven had nothing to do with it.
The show already had that conflict you so necessary wanted. They had B'Elanna (who they tamed a bit too quickly) and they had Seska (who they killed off too quickly).
Kes, with her way to learn and explore and with her way to solve conflicts and roblems in an unusual way compared to most female action characters was a wonderful contrast and complement to more traditional female action characters like Janeway and Torres. Kes was smart, determined and brave and therefore was an unique contribution to the show. She deserved better than to be dumped like some garbage just because some producers wanted someone in a catsuit to attract male teenagers.
Withers wrote:
That's exactly what ruined the show. They more and less wasted seven excellent characters (Kes, Chakotay, Paris, Torres, Tuvok, Neelix and Kim) to place the spotlight on the sexy newcomer, the hologram and the captain (who was overshadowed by the other two).
Voyager started to die when Kes was dumped. From that on, the show went downwards.
Withers
Captain
Do you mean to say what the character could have been or what they were? Because I can go along with the idea that, were it not for the focus on Seven of Nine, the other characters might have been able to grow a little more than they did. I can't, however, agree with the idea that any of the aforementioned characters were very interesting at the time Seven showed up.
I'll agree that Janeway started to be overshadowed by The Doctor and Seven of Nine though. There were moments when it almost seemed like scenes with McCoy and Spock minus Kirk.
... if Kes was all that was ever supposed to carry Star Trek Voyager the show was doomed from the start. That'd be like declaring Troi was what was supposed to have carried TNG, that Leeta was supposed to carry Deep Space Nine or... I can't think of an Enterprise equivalent but you get the idea. Kes was very much a supplementary character. You can liken her role in the show to slightly above that of, say, Guinan but on par with someone like Quark in terms of how often they needed to appear.
-Withers-
Then explain why many women like Seven of Nine. I like her, and I am neither male nor teenaged (and wasn't when the show was on, either).
I found Kes utterly boring, and was glad when she was gone.
Me, too.
I'd given up on Voyager in season 3, so if they'd not brought Seven on, I would never have tuned back in.
Personally, I thought Paris and (to a lesser degree) Torres were actually interesting. Paris remained one of my favorites for VOY throughout the show's run, and while Torres never gained that kind of status, I always thought she was pretty good, at least (even if it often felt like they only knew how to do two kinds of stories with her: Torres gets pissed, or Torres gets laid).
Kim had potential, but it was already being squandered by season three, and never really got any better.
Kes... I think she also had potential, to some degree, but as executed, her character honestly bored me more than anything. (Also, the Ocampa lifespan thing was SO monumentally stupid). I wasn't all that sorry to see her go, except for two things: one, the feeling that she was boring because they didn't do more with her, so with her leaving the show, we'll never know what could have been. Two, because really, if ANYone should have left, it should have been Chakotay, since he was a boring character whose only definable trait was "the native American". In the later seasons, it seems like they had no idea what to do with him (which irritated the hell out of Beltran), and throughout the entire show, he had only a few good eps (though I admit - somewhat ironic, this - a couple of these were some of Voyager's best eps, such as "Scorpion" and "Shattered"). As boring as I found Kes, I would have been interested to see what would have happened with her AND Seven around.
Kim had potential, but it was already being squandered by season three, and never really got any better.
Kes... I think she also had potential, to some degree, but as executed, her character honestly bored me more than anything. (Also, the Ocampa lifespan thing was SO monumentally stupid). I wasn't all that sorry to see her go, except for two things: one, the feeling that she was boring because they didn't do more with her, so with her leaving the show, we'll never know what could have been. Two, because really, if ANYone should have left, it should have been Chakotay, since he was a boring character whose only definable trait was "the native American". In the later seasons, it seems like they had no idea what to do with him (which irritated the hell out of Beltran), and throughout the entire show, he had only a few good eps (though I admit - somewhat ironic, this - a couple of these were some of Voyager's best eps, such as "Scorpion" and "Shattered"). As boring as I found Kes, I would have been interested to see what would have happened with her AND Seven around.
I agree with Withers here. As far as Voyager's quality, season by season, I think it got worse after season 3. I also think it got better.
Seasons 1-3 were all middling to me. A sizable majority of the eps would fall between 4 and 6 (out of 10, of course) for me. Every now and then, a really horrid (1-3) or really great (7-9) ep would crop up, but not that often. Seasons 4-7 were more in the extremes. An ep that landed in the 4-6 range was much more of a rarity, with the majority of eps being either 7 or above or 3 or below. Very strange progression, but that's how I felt about the show.
Seasons 1-3 were all middling to me. A sizable majority of the eps would fall between 4 and 6 (out of 10, of course) for me. Every now and then, a really horrid (1-3) or really great (7-9) ep would crop up, but not that often. Seasons 4-7 were more in the extremes. An ep that landed in the 4-6 range was much more of a rarity, with the majority of eps being either 7 or above or 3 or below. Very strange progression, but that's how I felt about the show.
In all honesty, I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. Seven's introduction certainly wasn't just a grasp at ratings via sex appeal, as some seem to think. However, to ignore that aspect of it - to say that higher ratings via sex appeal wasn't on the minds of the show's producers one bit - would be to ignore the realities of television production. That said, I think she WAS a great character, and was one of only a few Voyager characters whose potential was actually realized. Perhaps too much so; I do think that the amount of screentime she got, the sheer number of eps that were solidly about HER, in the last few seasons, was too much. The Doctor was another favorite of mine, but he - along with Seven and the Captain - stole too much show in those late seasons, and whatever the other characters could have been was lost.
You reach a questionable conclusion. Seven's only decent stories were in season 4.
The pace at which she "assimilated" to life on Voyager was done at such a clip that it compounded the underlying decline in the show's writing quality. Later stories seemed cliched since they already had been done. Exausting that they turned the last two seasons into a soap opera format.
The triumvirate of the Doctor, Seven, Janeway just undercut the advantages of the ensemble format.
The pace at which she "assimilated" to life on Voyager was done at such a clip that it compounded the underlying decline in the show's writing quality. Later stories seemed cliched since they already had been done. Exausting that they turned the last two seasons into a soap opera format.
The triumvirate of the Doctor, Seven, Janeway just undercut the advantages of the ensemble format.
The writers never really allowed Kes or Seven to stand on their own--they were merely a supplement to patch some very big holes in existing character development.
But regardless of my onesided or misguided viewpoint--I can not imagine watching Voyager without either of them
But regardless of my onesided or misguided viewpoint--I can not imagine watching Voyager without either of them
But Quark was an essential part of DS9 and the show would have lost a lot without him. The same for Kes.
When Kes was dumped, the show didn't just loose an excellent character but it was also the turning point when it was revealed that those in charge went more for easy stunts, like bringing in a sexy babe, the Borg and focus on three characters instead of trying to come up with interestingand constructive stories for the great characters they already had.
However, I could maybe have accepted Seven, the catsuit, the stunts and the focus on only three characters if hey hadn't dumped Kes. The character and the actress were to good to be treated like garbage .
When Kes was dumped, the show didn't just loose an excellent character but it was also the turning point when it was revealed that those in charge went more for easy stunts, like bringing in a sexy babe, the Borg and focus on three characters instead of trying to come up with interestingand constructive stories for the great characters they already had.
However, I could maybe have accepted Seven, the catsuit, the stunts and the focus on only three characters if hey hadn't dumped Kes. The character and the actress were to good to be treated like garbage .
here's what i find hilarious, by saying that the show was saved by "bringing on a sexy babe"... It kind of infers that none of the women already in the cast were "sexy babes" themselves.
In the "sex" episode of the Facts of Life the producers were trying to force the "premarital OOOO it was a mistake but I'm not pregnant" storyline on Blaire, but the actress is super Christian and refused to play along, which is when the girl who played Natalie stuck her hand up said that she'd be willing to play the part, I saw about this in a True Hollywood behind the scenes, and the actress said some thing like "I thought it was important that kids know that they can still have sex eventually even if they don't look like a Barbie princess."
Roxanne or Nancy (Who still both look like a princess in my opinion.)could have been droned up if they'd cowboyed up asking for more to do? Actually if Sam had become Borg that would have opened up so much story wise what with little Naomi wondering why her mother doesn't know who she is any more.
By the way: Seven of Nine saving the show and Jeri Ryan saving the show are completely different arguments.
In the "sex" episode of the Facts of Life the producers were trying to force the "premarital OOOO it was a mistake but I'm not pregnant" storyline on Blaire, but the actress is super Christian and refused to play along, which is when the girl who played Natalie stuck her hand up said that she'd be willing to play the part, I saw about this in a True Hollywood behind the scenes, and the actress said some thing like "I thought it was important that kids know that they can still have sex eventually even if they don't look like a Barbie princess."
Roxanne or Nancy (Who still both look like a princess in my opinion.)could have been droned up if they'd cowboyed up asking for more to do? Actually if Sam had become Borg that would have opened up so much story wise what with little Naomi wondering why her mother doesn't know who she is any more.
By the way: Seven of Nine saving the show and Jeri Ryan saving the show are completely different arguments.
If the audience at the time agreed, veiwership would have been solid and there never would have been a need for Seven of Nine or any "gimmicks" there after to begin with. DS9 boosted theirs when they began to drop by adding Worf & the Defiant.
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But it turns out that Seven of nine's boobies didn't help much. Maybe they kept the show barely floating above the cancellation threshhold but honestly they never made the show shine like the suits expected, craving some of that TNG money again.
The original cast couldn't get the job done, but the producers only had "two ideas" to save the show, not dozens or hundreds, but two. A new girl and a new shuttle. It's almost as if after/beyond payday that their job on Voyager was an after thought.
The original cast couldn't get the job done, but the producers only had "two ideas" to save the show, not dozens or hundreds, but two. A new girl and a new shuttle. It's almost as if after/beyond payday that their job on Voyager was an after thought.
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